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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Adam, A Figure Of Him To Come

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# 11382 :  Adam, A Figure Of Him To Come

Adam was created from a virgin earth?

Shalom Malekim!!!

 

Post by : George P. Koshy  View Profile    since : 22 Apr 2019


Reply by : rajarajan   View Profile   Since : 24 Apr 2019 6:00:27 PM Close

Hello George,

That was a confusing statement. Did you mean earth was virgin?  How, I would appreciate if you elaborate it. By the way, Christian beliefs are confusing to me. Are Chritsian beliefs greater or equal or lower than HIndu beliefs?  Christians normally depend upon Bible to prove their beliefs. Can you cite some historical facts to prove the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?  What is the necessary to speak so much to people about Jesus. Some quote from Bible and say Jesus told or conveyed that message to them. Some quote a verse or two from the Bible, like Colossians 1:23  Did not Jesus tell his disciples to make disciples rather than go and preach.  Some, who know Greek well say Matthew 28:19-20 is mistranslation.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 25 Apr 2019 2:46:04 PM Close

Dear Raja Rajan,

 

Did I address you properly? If not, please correct me.

 

Thank you for your questions. Before I answer them, I wish to know certain facts about you. Your answer will help me in forming the answers.

 

1.      You asked about ‘Christian belief’ and ‘Hindu belief.’ What I am interested to know is: are you a Christian or a Hindu? My answers will depend on your belief, so that I could help you.

2.      You also referred to Matthew 28:19-20 and stated that some who know Greek have the opinion that it is a mistranslation. I cannot answer this, without knowing which translation you are referring, in this case. There are many translations of the Bible. You may see different translation in English, as well as in many other languages. Please respond by giving the translation that you use. If you are using a translation other than in English, or Malayalam, I am not in a position to give an accurate answer.

 

I wait to hear from you.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2019 6:16:53 AM Close

 

Dear GPK,

What you mean by "Adam was created from a virgin earth?"

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2019 2:07:49 PM Close

Dear ‘guide,’

Are you familiar with the following English expressions?

            Virgin Oil

            Extra Virgin Olive Oil

            Virgin Land

            Virgin Islands

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : allentvarghese   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2019 4:12:38 PM Close

 

Dear Br George,

If we strictly go by the meaning of the word ‘virgin’, it signifies someone or something which is unused, unexploited, or unprocessed.

So this would mean an earth which remained un-used/exploited/processed as there was no man to ‘till the earth’(Gen2:5).

Thus the statement “Adam was created or formed from a virgin earth” would stand true. And specially by the mention on the title of the thread, it makes for a great study between the “the first man of the earth” and “the second man from heaven” (1 Cor 15:47) both formed from 'virgins' through the will of God.

Regards,

Allen

 

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 6 May 2019 2:05:51 PM Close

Dear Allen T. Varghese,

 

You got it. Could you try to expand?

 

Please remember that there are at least three ‘virgins’ associated with Christ’s life.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 7 May 2019 8:05:49 AM Close
Dear A T varghese, Is there any hints in the New Testament that validates this notion?
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 May 2019 1:59:22 PM Close

Dear 'kristianjude', a.k.a. 'kristine,'

Is there any New Testament passage that forbids its usage? If there is, please provide.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2019 3:35:59 AM Close
When this usage was not at all in the thoughts of NT writers, where arise the question of forbidding it? Think wisely before asking questions .
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2019 4:54:57 AM Close
And the NT writers could not have predicted that new writers would rise in later days with this novel thought.
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2019 7:55:12 AM Close
Novel thoughts are of three types, first one that stands in line with the Scripture, second one that falls out but promulgated with good intention and is not harmful (topic of this thread comes under this type) then the third one is that falls out and stands against Scripture.
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2019 8:13:07 AM Close
The subject of this thread seems to be borrowed from St. Irenaeus of Lyons. https://classicalchristianity.com/2011/10/24/virgin-earthvirgin-birth/
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2019 2:25:42 PM Close
Dear A T varghese, Saying that earth was unused/unexploited as there was no man to till the ground does not mean for me that the earth was virgin. Not every plant and herb has grown (Genesis 2:5) signifies that the process was only incomplete and does not mean that the process has not at all started. Even before God created man, Earth had brought forth grass, herb and fruit trees (1:11, 12). Every winged bird (1:21) living creatures, cattle, creeping things and beast (1:24) were created out of ground (2:19). Earth had lost its virginity even before Adam was created. Earth was virgin by the time God called the dry land Earth (1:10).
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 9 May 2019 6:10:10 PM Close

Dear ‘kristianjude,’ a.k.a. ‘kristine,’

On May 8, 2019 you made a series of posting having one or more sentences. It appears that the flood of posting has come to an end and receded. Therefore, I am addressing your postings to show that you have no understanding of the Scriptures and also lack common honesty.

The posting of 8 May 2019 03:35:59 shows that you have no answer to my question that I posted on the day before. Not only that, you also are void of any understanding of the shades (shadows) in the Old Testament. Therefore, I ask you the following and challenge you to answer them.

How do you know that the shades in the OT were not in the minds of New Testament writers? Do you know that the New Testament writers did not write of their own? On the other hand, they wrote as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Your posting of 8 May 2019 04:54:57 shows that you reject the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in writing the Old and New Testaments. The writers of the Scripture did not predict, but they prophesied. You do not know this or the differences. Gospel Literature Service (GLS), Mumbai, India has published a book, ‘The God of the Bible Is The God of Science.’ There is a section dealing with this problem of predicting and prophesying. Without knowing the difference, you made the Scriptures to be works of man and not the Word of God.

Your posting of 8 May 2019 07:55:12 shows that you are not aware of the fact that we are not discussing about ‘novel thoughts,’ but of thoughts according to Scriptures. However, your thoughts are ‘novel thoughts’ and not scriptural.

Your posting of 8 May 2019 08:13:07 deserve a thanks from me. Thank you for telling that there were others with the same thought about the subject of ‘virgin.’ I was not aware of St. Irenaeus of Lyons. I have not looked into his writings and am not thinking planning to do so, at this time.

Your posting of 8 May 2019 14:25:42 shows that you are reveling on your ignorance. You should read Genesis 2:5 in its context. Then you will know that you are even ignorant of what is meant by ‘context,’ forget about the expression ‘virgin’ or ‘virginity.’ Bringing forth grass, herbs, and trees did not violate the ‘virginity’ of the earth or land. On the other hand, it provided the functioning of the ‘virginity’ of earth that is capable to reproduce by having the seeds and fruits with seeds in them. Now, one should read Genesis 2:15 to understand the meaning of ‘tilling’ and ‘guarding’ the virgin earth. How come you missed that verse and found yourself reading verse 19?

In the above mentioned posting, you wrote, “Saying that earth was unused/unexploited as there was no man to till the ground does not mean for me that the earth was virgin.” You have made yourself superior to God, when you wrote about what you think is the final meaning of ‘tilling the ground.’ It was mentioned in the New Testament as a shadow or shade of things to come. You were ignorant about this fact.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 9 May 2019 6:51:55 PM Close
The fact is simple, when God called the dry land Earth, it had been virgin. When the earth started producing living creatures, plants and herbs, we understand the earth has been put in use which means earth is no more a virgin. A person with a common knowledge will understand this. Scripture does not say that Garden of Eden was virgin (Genesis 2:15). The above posting by George is full of non sense.
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 9 May 2019 7:34:13 PM Close
Answering all his vain arguments is futile
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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 10 May 2019 5:27:11 PM Close

The Lord Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, but he was not made from the virgin. He was from above, "the Word became flesh" - John 1:14, 3:21. Even if we call the earth as being 'virgin' at Adam's creation, Adam was of this earth and made from this earth ("until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return" - Gen 3:19).

So, it not correct to compare Adam to the Lord Jesus in respect to the virgin nature of the earth and of Mary.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 May 2019 2:57:54 PM Close

Dear ‘kristianjude,’ a.k.a. ‘kristine,’

You did not answer my questions that I posed in my posting of 5/9/2019. Therefore I am posting them again:

How do you know that the shades in the Old Testament were not in the minds of New Testament writers? Do you know that the New Testament writers did not write of their own?

Withoust answering the above two questions, you wrote, “The fact is simple, when God called the dry land Earth, it had been virgin.” I did not ask anything about why you consider earth was virgin at some time in the past. Why did you write this? It agains shows your lack of honesty and understanding of the Scriptural truth.

Since you voluntarily provided your definition for earth being ‘virgin’ at some time in the past, let me ask you the following and ask you to answer them.

1.      Are you saying that earth ceased to be ‘virgin’ on the third day, on the fifth day, or on the sixth day?

2.      You claim that you have the common knowledge, which is not common between us. Could you make it common between us?

3.      Could you show me the “non sense” in my posting of May 9, 2019?

I ask you to write answers to the five questions in this posting.

Thank you for admitting that you have no answer to my questions on 9 May 2019 19:34:13, while I have shown your lack of honesty. Let me explain: On 7th May 2019, I posted only one question and you came back with a barrage of postings on 8 May 2019. I showed the alck of honesty and logic in those barrage of posting from you and asked you to answer two other questions that are related to your barrage of postings. You have not answered those two questions, but have shown your lack of understanding of the Scriptures and honesty on 9 May 2019.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 May 2019 2:59:32 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

Please read Romans 5:14, which I inferred in my original posting. If you have any doubt, the title of this thread will make it celar to you.

You are exerting supremacy over the Scripture by writing, “So, it not correct to compare Adam to the Lord Jesus in respect to the virgin nature of the earth and of Mary.”

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 12 May 2019 10:24:18 AM Close
George, you have written "I did not ask anything about why you consider earth was virgin at some time in the past. Why did you write this?" George, what I should write here or should not, is my option and interest. You have no authority to command me. I made my first posting here addressing not you, but Mr. Varghese. In fact, I have no interest to interact a person like you who has a sickness for controversy. Don't think that I've no answers to your questions. I have sure answers, but it is your practice to go on asking questions upon question worthless.
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 12 May 2019 1:52:25 PM Close
Dear 'moses2006' there are a few verses in NT reading which we can understand that Paul was not adamant to claim that everything he said should be taken as God ordained. Please read 1 Corinthian 7:6, 12, 25 & 40. It is true that Paul said that Adam was a figure of Christ.But he has not given any points of comparison between the two. But there are persons now a days who tend to explain this comparison with point of their own and claim it is scriptural.
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 12 May 2019 3:31:01 PM Close
Dear 'moses2006' Can we Christians observe days, is it right or wrong to observe days, read Romans14:6. Though there was no command from God on this matter, Paul opened this as subject matter since it was an issue in Corinthian Churches and left this as choice to the believers.He did not say any thing claiming it scriptural. There is no Scriptural dictum and believers are at liberty to make a choice.
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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 13 May 2019 1:43:14 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

Its been a while since we communicated on this forum - I hope you are doing well!

Regarding this topic, I want to submit to whatever the Word of God states. I do not want to add or take away from what is revealed. At the same time, I do not have a perfect understanding of what God has revealed in His Word. Rom 5:14 states that Adam is a pattern for Christ - but based on my understanding most of the similarlities are inversed (negatives in Adam contrasted to positives in Christ). Please show from the scriptures how Mary and Earth are related in being virgins and how this is an example of the pattern described in Rom 5:14.

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Reply by : abc   View Profile   Since : 13 May 2019 3:56:46 PM Close
Virgin Mary, Virgin Earth, Mother Earth, Mary woship, Earth worship and so on. Hope you can see a pattern when theological knowledge explodes in some people's brain.
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Reply by : allentvarghese   View Profile   Since : 13 May 2019 5:15:09 PM Close

Dear Br George, 'kristianjude'

The usage of the word ‘virgin earth’ maybe distasteful to some but I would chose not to get caught up in them too much. One may opt to use the word, ‘untouched’ which would convey a similar meaning without sounding too offensive. 

My observations mainly came up from Gen 2:5. The verse is constructed in such a way that it gives an idea, that the process of growth had not yet taken place even though its essentials like trees and seed bearing capabilities were present. The verse specifically talks about the state of the earth before every herb and plants of the field existed on earth, before it grew/sprang up/to sprout. The process of growth had still not occurred because of two reasons- the lack of rain-(essential source of growth), and absence of man to till the ground(to process/cultivate/make it arable). 

Then Gen 2:6-7 talks about the formation of the these essentials. V6 talks about the fountain out of the earth which watered it and v7 talks about the way man is formed(like a work of a potter and his clay), -materially from the dust of the earth(adamah) and life from God- the breath of life, neshāmâh. Adam is thus formed from the dust of the earth- ‘adamah’- the relationship between which can be seen mentioned by various writers.

Man is then delegated dominion over God’s creation from the very beginning(Gen 1:28,29,30). God makes man capable of carrying out the role of being the master and king of this earth. He has the power and ability to use, exploit and process it’s resources to its full potential. But before this came to be, one would be led to agree to the fact that earth remained untouched and barren from the hand of its master-man, through the will of God (Gen 2:5-...For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth.. and there was not a man to till the ground. )

Regards,

Allen

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 13 May 2019 7:23:36 PM Close
Dear Mr. Varghese Thanks for your post. I'm mulling over its content
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