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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: SINGER'S & INSTRUMENTS

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# 00118 :  SINGER'S & INSTRUMENTS
In the current christian world there is no importance given to the singers. Doesnt the bible give more importance for singing? What does it say about the singers and the instruments used for worshiping God? Some say that the instruments are not nessessary for worshipping god. Even though we dont use it on sundays we use it for the other meetings.I want to know what the bible says about singing, singers and the instruments in both Old & New testiments, especially in the New testiment??????
Post by : bejoyaranmula  View Profile    since : 9 Jul 2006


Reply by : joa   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2006 3:08:26 AM Close
Why the Kerala Brethren Assemblies not using musical instruments during Sunday Worship meetings ? WHat does Bible says about this ?
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Reply by : greencard   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2006 3:43:06 AM Close
It is out of ignorance and prejudice.
Rather than using western instruments like electronic keyboard etc, people in kerala should use 'desi' instruments. To start with 'chenda', 'maddalam' and 'Tabla' will be good. These are widely used in temples and churches. There is nothing wrong in us too using that. It will give a classical taste and well harmonise with the kerala culture. Bible doesnot make any restriction in using instruments.

But i think Br. Aranmula doesnot know that kerala has large number of 50,000 Watts Electrifying Brethren Music Festivals with all sort of groups coming and performing. Why we should drag them into our worships too?!

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Reply by : mathai   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2006 5:01:24 AM Close
hello green
You sound funny yaar?
You mean an hour of 'chenda melam' before worship?
Thats how it is typical in temples before their rituals!!!
To me musical instruments and even the people who handle that during worship, are a real nuisance. It is my personal outlook and ofcourse no biblical basis. Anyway our assembly(elders) wont allow chendamelam or even CASIO for worship. we can meditate on our Gracious Lord without that. May be some one else may need that sort of help to worship, i dont know.

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Reply by : bejoyaranmula   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2006 5:36:19 AM Close
Mr.Greencard i didnot ask anybody to say thier own suugessions about this matter. I need to know what the bible says. And for your information we are not following culture instead we are following christ.so about using chenda maddalam and all is up to you if you want to follow the culture
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2006 7:46:58 AM Close
Dear 'bejoyaranmula,'

We have discussed this subject or related ones before. As you are raising this issue, please provide your input from the scriptures on this subject. Mine is already given in the previous threads.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : jakes   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2006 9:01:34 AM Close
all of them are changing from the subject,what chendamellam?he was not saying abt chendamelam,but the singers & instrument.in my view it is good.even bible give more important to songs.we have a capter also for songs.we can see how david praise the god when he is happy.
NB:atleast the instrument will help to wakeup the sleeping elders.
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Reply by : godsown   View Profile   Since : 29 Jul 2006 1:41:12 AM Close
Didn't David sing and praise the Lord with the sounds of cymbals and harps and tambourines and also with dancing? What's wrong in using these instruments for the Glory of God? If the Piano and Guitar is WESTERN, can we use the cymbals and harps and tambourines for our worship then?
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Reply by : babugeorge01   View Profile   Since : 2 Aug 2006 3:29:57 AM Close
The Worship of God is to be done exactly how God wants it done. While God has given much freedom for man in many areas of life and ministry, with regard to the worship offered to Him, He has been very specific.

Also there is a progressive revelation given by God on how to worship Him. The Patriarchs who were wanderers, built 'altars.' (First Gear)

When Israel became a nation, God introduced worship in the Tabernacle with ceremonial oblations, and did away with altars. (Second Gear) Does not Leviticus explain to the last detail how God has to be worshiped?

When Israel settled in the promised Land God introduced 'the temple' and did away with the tabernacle. (Third Gear)

Jesus Christ said to the woman by the well of Jacob, that presently God was doing away with the 'temple' and introducing TRUE WORSHIP. IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH! (Top Gear)

Just as Leviticus explains 'Tabernacle worship,' the Epistles explain 'Worship in Spirit.' We cannot justify instruments in this church dispensation simply because it is found in the Psalms, because they were linked with the Levitical ceremonies.

The people of God are moving to the finish line in Top Gear!! When we see Him, we shall know as we are know, and we shall worship as we ought (Overdrive). How can we go to first gear now?

The desire for instruments to be used in the public worship of God primarily stems from a lack of comprehensive understanding of God's expectations of TRUE WORSHIP. I am sure, if we systematically study this, we will be convinced and would gladly endeavor to worship God in spirit and in truth.

We give unto God what HE wants, not what we like.

Babu

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Reply by : mathai   View Profile   Since : 2 Aug 2006 11:17:46 PM Close
Thanks Br.Babu.
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Reply by : beracha   View Profile   Since : 3 Aug 2006 6:50:11 AM Close
Is it okay to sing songs composed in tunes of popular film music or Hindu temple music during worship meetings?
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Reply by : bob_titus   View Profile   Since : 3 Aug 2006 4:11:54 PM Close
There is no scope for discussing this topic. You dont have to look into any progressive revelation or interpretation whether musical instruments can be used for not for worship as the bible as never forbidden the use of singers or musical instruments during worship.

If a person or 2 leads a song aided with minimal instruments that helps to keep the song in tune, it will be a better way to keep the assembly of people njoy the worship and not get distracted with the stretching last line and abrupt start of the next line :-D.

As to those who feel that musical instruments will not help you to worship in truth and spirit - I would suggest you to first understand what it actually means by worshiping the lord.

On sunday you primarly come for breaking the bread, that's what god expects us to do.. worship is just a part of it and has to be done at all time whenever you can.. so pls dont complicate things with musical instruments and singers and sunday gathering.

If it cannot be done while u worship Lord on a sunday never use it at anytime you worship.. not even on the CD/cassette player you play at home or in your car..( try to worship in the truth and spirit - not sure how ppl get these wierd interpretations and confusions when things are so clear) !!

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Reply by : babugeorge01   View Profile   Since : 4 Aug 2006 3:47:52 AM Close
Dear Bob Titus:

You say the bible has not forbidden the use of singers or musical instruments during worship. I would agree with you.

Has the bible instructed the use of singers and instruments during worship?

Babu

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Reply by : bethel   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2006 12:57:35 AM Close
Dear All,

I think if we can worship our Lord in Spirit and Truth equally without instruments and music,then its fine..But without instruments and music we are not able to worship God in proper way then it should not be used as it would imply that it is the music and insturments which makes us worship and that is not true worship.True Worship originates from heart with no need of simulators like musci or instruments..

In Christ's Love
Jimmi

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2006 12:09:10 PM Close
Quote from bob_titus:

"...it will be a better way to keep the assembly of people NJOY the worship."

We worship not to make people ENJOY the worship. We worship in order that God may enjoy, if I may say so (Gen 8:21). Our purpose should not be to make worship enjoyable to men, but to make it well pleasing and acceptable to God.

Notice how clearly singing songs of praise and worship are distinguished in 2 Chr 29:28-30. Worship cannot be enhanced, or made more "enjoyable" to God. Men can of course make the so-callec "worship" enjoyable to men, but God cares the least with such a worship. He is interested in men who truly worship Him. John 4:23, "But the hour cometh, and NOW IS, when the TRUE WORSHIPPERS shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father SEEKETH SUCH to worship him.

As for singing is concerned, the Scripture is clear. Psalms 92:1-3 <<A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day.>> It is a GOOD THING TO GIVE THANKS unto the LORD, and to SING PRAISES unto thy name, O most High: To shew forth thy lovingkindness in the morning, and thy faithfulness every night, UPON AN INSTRUMENT of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.

But don't think it is worship.

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : bob_titus   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2006 4:52:34 PM Close
Dear Moses,

I agree with the fact that we worship so that GOD may enjoy it, but I never knew that you do not njoy worshiping the LORD but I really do - it is not about making the worship session a time pass every sunday that you make it enjoyable, dont take me wrong on that.. but for me I do enioy the time I spend with my LORD when I look unto his greatness and worship him!!...

Regards
Bob Titus

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Reply by : bob_titus   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2006 4:54:09 PM Close
Hi Jimmi,

I completely agree with you. The situation shouldn't be like, it is mandatory that we need musical instruments and singers to worship the lord else we cant.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 7 Aug 2006 6:35:11 AM Close
Bob,

Quote: "...but I never knew that you do not njoy worshiping the LORD but I really do"

I agree with you that one should be be joyful to worship the Lord, but it is not same thing as making worship enjoyable. We should worship with all joy. But that does not mean we should make it more enjoyable with music. Both are different things if you can discern this.

Moses

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Reply by : bob_titus   View Profile   Since : 7 Aug 2006 9:53:16 AM Close
My reply to Jimmi should be good enough for your Quote and inference.
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Reply by : bts73   View Profile   Since : 8 Aug 2006 4:36:00 PM Close
Since I did not see anyone give the following view point, I'm presenting this to you all.

Is it ok to use instruments in the worship meeting? Altho I'm for it, the understanding of this scripture passage has led me to think twice.

Lev 2:11 No meat offering, which ye shall bring unto the LORD, shall be made with leaven: for ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any offering of the LORD made by fire.

When God commanded Israel to bring offerings to the Lord, there were certain conditions.
1. The offering should not have any leaven (uncleaness).
2. The offering should have honey (natural sweetness). Instruments do just that. It triggers our emotions to worship God rather than allowing the "Spirit" of God to bring to our spirit the "Truth about the Lord Jesus (from scriptures) and inturn we offer it to the Father.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth

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Reply by : bts73   View Profile   Since : 8 Aug 2006 4:36:43 PM Close
The rest Moses can explain about the offerings
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Reply by : mp   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2006 2:24:29 AM Close
dear brothers,
nothing wrong in using instaments in whorship. but be careful that music should not be woship. dont give more importance to music than worship.
it should be in its rithem.
while we are worshipping nothing is importance than god.
thanx
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Reply by : bthomas   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2006 9:38:51 AM Close
I agree with mp. Nothing wrong with music during worship, as long as the muscians are not the center of attraction.
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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 10 Aug 2006 12:43:24 AM Close
While we all worship, what will the musicians do? Play intruments? or worship? They can't do both for sure, for we worship in the spirit.

Moses

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 10 Aug 2006 9:30:24 AM Close
That's a ridiculous statement to make, Br. Moses, without authority. We must stop making these sweeping generalizations.

Obviously you are not a musician, who can play an instrument effortlessly, while at the same time being worshiping.

And what do you mean by "worship in the spirit"? Is that some sort of mystical experience? Worship has ingredients of emotion, intellect in it. We worship with our intellect, cause it is a concious act, it is based on a concious fact, and it is not simply vain utterances. We worship with our emotions, because these facts move our hearts with gratitude, appreciation and awe.

Scripture talks about worship in the spirit, but this is a more descriptive concept than a practical one. How does one practically worship in the spirit? Or, is it simply a way to describe Holy Spirit led worship?

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 10 Aug 2006 11:58:35 AM Close
Dear Joyboy,

I am not altogeter against instruments. The Bible tells us that it is a good thing to PRAISE the Lord with instruments of music. But let me tell you that I don't understand how can a man worship in spirit and at the same time play an instrument. Let me give some examples of worshipping from the spirit from the Scriptures:

1. The servant of Abraham saw his prayer being answered right in front of his face, and as reverence, awe and thankfulness bubbled from his heart, he "bowed down his head, and worshipped the LORD. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of my master Abraham" (Gen 24:26-27). Imagine the man doing this spontaneously while playing a musical instrument.

2. Look at the worship of Israelites when Moses met them in Exo 4:31, "And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped." When their hearts pondered on the goodness and faithfulness of God, worship arose spontaneously.

3. See how Moses worships in Exo 34:6-8.

Our sunday meetings are remembrance meeting. Remembrance of the Lord has to naturally result in worship, because when we ponder on Him, worship automatically comes. It will be done in truth, and in spirit, not merely by bodily expression of worship by bowing the knee or falling prostrate. I really doubt if a musician can ponder upon the things concerning Christ, and worship spontaneously as it rises from the heart while still playing an instrument. If there are those who could do it, then I cannot say anything. Instruments should be better avoided in a remembrance meeting.

Moses

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Reply by : greencard   View Profile   Since : 10 Aug 2006 10:25:12 PM Close
Thanks Br. Moses.
As Br.Babu George wrote, there is a progression in God's dealings with man. Things will be perfect in eternity only. But many of those things which were relevant in OT has become ir-relevant in NT.
There were selected singers in OT in temple duty. In NT, such things are not there.
I also feel as Moses said, it is better to avoid instruments and assigned singers to lead etc when we gather to remember the Lord.
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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 1:42:26 PM Close
I agree with everything moses has said in his post dated 10 aug.

except with this:
"But let me tell you that I don't understand how can a man worship in spirit and at the same time play an instrument."

and this:

"I really doubt if a musician can ponder upon the things concerning Christ, and worship spontaneously as it rises from the heart while still playing an instrument. If there are those who could do it, then I cannot say anything. "

Both these statements are opinions. Judgements without experience, but made as observations. I don't think any of us who are not musicians can say the above with any authority. As such, we should avoid making generalizations that we cannot support with scripture. I know a great many musicians who play effortlessly. I sometimes worship as I write, or as I type. It's the same thing. A good musician plays effortlessly. He worships as he plays, much like when I write something down on paper that is profound I worship.

Now, Br. Moses also said: "Instruments should be better avoided in a remembrance meeting."

Why? Preference? That's completely cultural, and opinion. Some of the exclusive brethren seem to twist scripture to support their view, but I don't think it can be supported by scripture. Let us not be dogmatic on personal preference.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 12 Aug 2006 2:43:27 AM Close
Dear Joyboy,

Let me be clear that I am NOT dogmatic on this. I told you about my difficulty to understand how a musician can play music and worship simultaneously. I understand how you can worship while writing etc, exactly as I do while driving the car. Nehemiah could pray while talking to the king in Neh 2:4-5, a short prayer in his heart. I am not talking about this short, 5 second worship, or prayer, though I referred to such examples before to illustrate what worshipping in spirit means.

We all know that David is a seasoned musician. He was "cunning in playing" the harp, 1 Sam 16:18. But the first time I see David WORSHIP is in 2 Sam 12:20, where he went to worship in the house of the Lord, and no music mentioned. Yes, while PRAISING God, and giving Him THANKS, he used instruments. NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE do you see anybody playing a musical instrument and worshipping simultaneously. I quoted 2 Chr 29:27-30 earlier also. No where in that passage do we see the trumpeteers and players of instruments worshipping while they still played.

The only place people WORSHIPPED with music on DURING WORSHIP is in Dan 3:7, "Therefore AT THAT TIME, WHEN all the people HEARD THE SOUND of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the GOLDEN IMAGE that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up." That was DEVIL WORSHIP, worshipping the 60 feet by 6 feet image with 6 instruments.

For proper worship, you need a proper exercise of the heart. I suggest you please read 2 Samuel chapter 7, especially verses 18-29, where David SAT BEFORE THE LORD, and poured his heart. No music is there brother.

Dear Joyboy, I am not "exclusive" but "peculiar" as any other Christian is, and I don't know if you meant I twisted any Scripture, but if you do, please tell me which one.

God bless,

Moses

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 15 Aug 2006 8:28:07 PM Close
Sorry, br. Moses. When I said some exclusives twist scripture, I was not referring to you.

There is a small sect of the brethren movement called the exclusive brethren. Some of them have twisted scripture to be dogmatic about not using instruments.

Nor, br. Moses, was I saying that you were being dogmatic. Sorry for the confusion. I was saying that we should not be dogmatic.

As I re-read my post above, it may have come across as harsh. I apologize.

I was simply saying that playing an instrument and worshipping for some is like walking and worshipping for us, or reading and worshipping, etc. It's like how a soccer (football) player effortlessly moves up the field, all the while while controlling the ball. I could never do it, but it can be done. It just takes ability--not ability to worship, but ability to play.

Let me bring another point for your consideration. I know of places where the musical ability of the believers there are so bad, that their singing distracts. However, when there is a musical instrument, like a piano or a guitar to guide them, their voices get back on key. In situations like these, not having a musical instrument is harmful for the worship. Why? It prevents people from concentrating on the words, instead they are distracted by the bad singing. I have fellowshiped in an assembly like this.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 15 Aug 2006 11:28:38 PM Close
Take it easy Joyboy. I am not offended. God bless.

Moses

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Reply by : philipputhusseriyathu   View Profile   Since : 23 Aug 2006 11:40:15 PM Close
Repy to Br. Moses
From you quote on;
Reply by : lemuelraj Since : 10 Aug 2006 00:43:24 Close
While we all worship, what will the musicians do? Play instruments? or worship? They can't do both for sure, for we worship in the spirit.

Moses

I cannot agree with the above statement, firstly I wish to mention that we are not using any instrument in the worship time; after worship we are using instruments for all our other functions and meetings, but as far as through my knowledge and experience; if the musician is a believer then he must be worshiping his almighty Lord because I am a Musician (Drummer) and I am doing like that.

GOD BLESS ALL OF US
PHILIP

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 24 Aug 2006 7:08:16 AM Close
I am with you Philip. I dont mind the use of instruments in meetings other than worship.
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Reply by : frenchbeard   View Profile   Since : 30 Mar 2009 7:16:38 AM Close
If they are good musicians ( musicians who have good skill, and
who do not overplay ), then it's fine.
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Reply by : jmeasow   View Profile   Since : 23 Apr 2009 7:31:15 PM Close
Singing and music definitely has a prime place in worship. It is because of this, that a whole book, with 150 chapters, is devoted in the bible to sing, praise and worship.

Worship must be pleasant to God. It is not a playground to show our talent and culture. God demands a thankful and joyful heart, and nothing else. He requests full attention to His presence and the sole focus of worship, must be on Him.

"O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth."

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Reply by : godly277   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2009 9:58:56 AM Close

i enjoy worshiping God without any instruments. For me, my heart is the instrument for that time of worship. I feel so happy when i can really meditate on the love of God and praise him with the overflowing  joy in heart. Even songs sung that time disturbs me if its not the right one.

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Reply by : bejoyaranmula   View Profile   Since : 5 Oct 2009 10:13:15 AM Close
Dear Brethren,
 
Still my question seems to be unanswered. I asked wat importance does singers and intruments hav in our Christian world? Singers who are spending their life serving the Lord through their songs are not considered to be Evangelists. They spread the word of our Lord through our Christian songs. As far as i knw wat they do is make the minds ready to hear the word of God. Wat is our brethren's opinion on this?
 
Regards,
 
Bejoy Aranmula
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Reply by : oct87   View Profile   Since : 10 Mar 2010 1:03:01 PM Close

hello brothers,

As i am a young believer, i don't know to quot bible words and say what i want to say. But this is what i have learned from some camps I have gone.

hmm this might be long but might help. (If i make any mistakes, of any kind please do correct me brothers)

Yes as asked, do singing have any importance in worshiping..... i guess yes, because we have seen most of plams are written for worshiping God, and in new testiment we can see in revelations that angels singing to the god and worshiping him. So i guess there is a lot of importance in singing in worship.

 

for the singers part of question. ya singers have a great role. it is a gift given by god or a talent. Use it for his namesake not for your own namesake, just like John made way for the christ, songs make way for the word of god in other meetings like a gospel meeting. So that is a big "si-sru-sha".....( what is tat in eng)... hmm....... service for god in church.

Talking about instruments... there are 3 types of in strument...

1. String (guitar,piano).

2. Wind (flut,vocal).

3. Percussion (drums, clap)

percussion has the ability to stimulate your body (just hear some rhythemic thump, automaticaly your feet will tap with that), wind instrument will stimulate your mind (you get motivated by speech or any oral singing). string will stimulate your soul (remember David playing strings for saul when he was in bad spirit).

so playing instruments with song is good.

But the worship songs we sing or anyone sing in any part of the world, or at any time, even if it was in the time of david or now, is purely based on the lyrics. When we sing the song, we should sing the lyrics from our "heart" to our father. So the lyrics is important. Therefore we must be sure that instruments must not take over our worship songs, (play instruments just to support the song). That will make you involve more in the song and help you sing out of your heart (remember more should be song's lyrics, not instruments).

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 24 Mar 2010 2:52:45 PM Close

Well said Oct87

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Reply by : jivin@rocketmail.com   View Profile   Since : 5 Apr 2010 11:06:32 AM Close
Dear son of god the use of certain instrument are based on appropriate situation .if u are in the notion that musical instrument should be used during worship i would remind you that during worship the priority and importance should be given to god and saviour there should be no means which distrau the time with the lord the songs should be from the heart which pleases our lord not the songs with instruments ..i am not against musical instrument but i do not agree using of these instruments during worship
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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 21 Apr 2010 7:03:05 PM Close

During worship - there is a dedicated person playing the piano. When we sing songs we sing in harmony, and never realize that an instrument is being played. There is no distraction in this case.

But I do get distracted a lot when people start singing in different ways.

Some start early and some start late. Some stretch few words and come cut it short. It is utter chaos! It is far better for someone to lead the song in the right pitch and sing in harmony. Would you sing like that to the Prime Minister of our country if you ever had to sing in a group???

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Reply by : eagle   View Profile   Since : 30 Jul 2010 9:59:10 AM Close

 Psalm 150

 

Praise the Lord!
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty firmament!

Praise him for his mighty deeds;

praise him according to his surpassing greatness! 

Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp! 
Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe! 
Praise him with clanging cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals! 
Let everything that breathes praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord!

 

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Reply by : eagle   View Profile   Since : 30 Jul 2010 11:07:30 AM Close

 Contd..

The arguments that I have heard against instruments and singers so far

Argument 1. It(they) is(are) a Distraction 

-  for you or for God? One brother just made a statement that He does not care about that fact that he enjoys worship and that worship is purely for God's enjoyment. In that case, you should not complain about distractions. After all, you don't enjoy it.. besides, this is quite personal. Some find it a distraction, and most find that it adds to the experience

Argument 2. We do not see evidence of instruments in new testament churches

 - No, However, we do see a LOT of prominence to good music to worship and praise the Lord in the Old testament. While I agree that the Old testament is not a guide for us as much as the new testament is, it still provides a backdrop and enriches our understanding of the divine. So it cant be neglected totally and worse, selectively!. Besides, we also don't see evidence of Mike sets in the new testament. Still, we do use them right? why? because it helps us in a way. So to the brothers who ask "Did apostle Paul and Peter use instruments?" ask yourselves "Did apostle Paul and Peter use Mike sets to preach?" 

Argument 3. Musical instruments are lifeless. Let only those which has life worship the Lord. So we dont need these lifeless instruments.

- Let me ask you, do our Hymn books have life? We have them in our worship meetings because it "Helps" in worship. Note that our hymn books do not worship the Lord. An instrument is just that - an INSTRUMENT. Its something you use.. not something that you expect to worship the Lord.. Just like the Hymn book. So this argument does not even make sense 

My two cents - There's nothing wrong in using or Not using instruments. Its just personal/assembly preference. If the assembly has good musicians and singers who enhance worship experience, there is nothing wrong in using them. If in an assembly there aren't any good musicians or the people there don't like the sound of instruments(personally I dislike this chenda), there's nothing wrong in Not using them.

However, whats dangerous here is the tendency to go on creating doctrines which have no scriptural basis. keep in mind that these things add up slowly and these justifications used to make these un-scriptural doctrines CAN be re-used in the future by someone else to justify something sinister and nasty.

 

 

 

 

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Reply by : flowingstones   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2010 3:19:33 AM Close

 Great Question-

this is how i would approach it.

lets define worship- gen 23 the first time the word worship was used , there was a lamb that was sacrified. worship cannot take place without the rememberence of the slain lamb of god.

Worship is what we think of Christ. It is some thing we offer. We do not come to a worship meeting to enjoy it, we come to give the fruits of our lips.( so in tune singing and all that stuff does not count) You dont need an emotional upliftment to worship. If you have not been meditating on the Lord the whole week then you seek good music, that will emotional lift your hearts up. Is not the Sacrifice of the son - more than enough. Dude we need to study in depth about his love and you will be just waiting to burst forth with praises on a sunday morning.

A sunday morning worship meeting is the breaking of the bread. We remember the sacrifice of Christ , and we speak to the father about his son and his love towards us. We praise the Son., Worship is different from praise. Worship always involves the slain lamb of God but praise could be for the things that happen in our lives etc.

Yes instruments have been used in the OT , they will be used in heaven , but guys there is no mention of instruments in the NT. We base our worship on Gods words and it is not found in the NT.

 

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 7 Oct 2010 6:17:04 PM Close

so, flowingstones: if it's not explicitly mentioned in the New Testament, we shouldn't be doing it?  No sunday school, youth meetings, ladies fellowships, conferences?

In the gospel accounts of the Lord's supper, the only time singing is mentioned is at the end when they leave to go to the mount of olives.  Does this mean that we should only sing at the end of our meeting? 

In 1 Cor 11, singing is not even mentioned.  1 Cor 14 does mention singing, but together with words of instruction, revelations, etc.  These we do not have in our Breaking of Bread.  You're correct, no mention of instruments.  However, it is not in a context of worship, but together with instruction and revelation, etc.   Eph 5 mentions singing also, talking about personal worship with singing.

We should not and cannot establish doctrine or teaching or instruction because of the omission of a certain item in scripture.  It leads to error, legalism and other haughtiness.  We use common sense for other aspects of church life and christian life when it comes to those things that scripture is explicitly silent on.  Why is music an exception?

 

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Reply by : flowingstones   View Profile   Since : 24 Oct 2010 9:26:36 PM Close

 joyboy- here s the reply... trust that this would be helpful---

 

Why can't we have instrumental music in our meetings? Is there any Scripture against it? All I ever hear is that they never did it in the early assemblies. If there isn't any Scripture against it why aren't they honest and say so?"

Thus spake the Voice of Youth, perhaps a trifle rebellious, yet surely, in principle quite within the provision made for the enquiring child (Deut 6:20-21). Accordingly, we then and there began a simple Bible study which quickly disclosed the following facts:

1. God Himself ordained the Blowing of the Trumpets as a feature of Israel's worship (Lev 23; Psa 81:5).

2. Through David, Gad, and Nathan, He gave commandment that instrumental music should be used as an accompaniment for the singers in the Temple services, for Praise and Worship (2 Chron 29:25-28; 25:1-7; 5:13).

3. History discloses that "the chant of the Psalms of praise, accompanied with joyous sound of music" (Edersheim) was part of the Temple ritual at the time when the Lord Jesus described the place as "My Fathers house" (John 2:16).

4. Further reading brought to light another most interesting fact, that Israel's rejection of their Messiah completely changed our Lord's attitude toward the Temple as "your house," which He now leaves to them a desolation. In the next verse He bids farewell to the Temple, its services, and its worshippers, until the con-drig day when Israel will hail His coming with joy

5. His utter abandonment of the Temple and its ritual was given final emphasis by His being led outside Jerusalem, and all it represented, to suffer on the cross (Heb 13:12).

6. It was from His position outside it all that He called by the Spirit to believers, "Let us go forth therefore Unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach" (Heb 13:13).

The young Christians present had not realized what that call would mean to the Jewish converts to whom the Epistle was originally addressed. We tried, therefore, to project their thoughts backward 1900 years and put ourselves into the thinking of a young believer saved out of Judaism, so that we might perceive their problem.

"Must I leave behind the sacrifices which I have relied upon since childhood?" a convert might ask.

"Yes, let them go completely. There could never put away sin. Christ, the Perfect Sacrifice, has shed His blood once and for all, and has put away sin forever."

"But what about the priesthood, and our High Priest? He was my representative before God. Must I be willing to lose his services also?"

"Yes, in Christ we have a great High Priest better than all the priests of Israel. He can have perfect compassion on the ignorant and those who are out of the way He constantly appears in the presence of God for us, and we shall never lose His services through death."

"But the Covenant - surely you are forgetting that God Himself made the Covenant with our people, and that under it all the Temple services have been conducted?"

"There is for the Christian a better Covenant, established on better promises. Indeed every feature of the old system in which you were raised has been superseded by Better Things. Let us then leave the shadows and seek the Substance. Let us bid farewell to Judah's camp, and all that belonged to it, and go forth unto Him."

Silence reigns for a few moments: then: "But what about the white-robed singers and the wonderful Temple music? It has always thrilled me so much! Must I leave all that behind as well? I feel as if there will be nothing left."

"Nothing left? Truly - nothing but Himself."

Is it possible that we would answer His call by saying, "Yes, Lord, I desire to go forth unto Thee; but could I not take along a bit of the Temple's instrumental music? It would so help with the singing! And since strangers who come to the Gospel meeting think it queer that we have no music at all, perhaps it would lessen, just a little, the bearing of Thy reproach." or would we be satisfied to let Hebrews 13:13 settle it all?

There is another truth that would have applied to the Jewish convert. In the Old Testament system, music was part of the service of the march and the camp of Israel, but within the inner sanctuary, no music was ever used. An assembly is God's inner sanctuary today (1 Cor 3:16-17) and no aids to worship are acceptable there. We worship in spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit, not through instrumental music.

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 25 Oct 2010 3:19:32 AM Close

Flowing stones,

Your exposition of temple practices and the fact that our Lord Jesus eliminated such is commendable, but has nothing to do with the topic at hand.   Points 1-6 are logical, and systematic, but don't address music.  They do address how one approaches God, how one interacts with God and how one encounters God.  the old has passed away.   But this only has to do with our priveledges and our status, not music. 

It's a stretch at best to use this for music, and proof-texting (i.e. molding scripture around a preconceived doctrine) at worst.

the simple fact is, the effort with which one goes to establish a spurious doctrine should be evidence enough as to its lack of Biblical basis and support. 

you have not addressed my 2 main points, 1 and 2 below:

1. Establishing doctrine and practice by way ommission is questionable at best, dangerous and legalistic at worst.  This was your original thesis, which you seem to have abandoned when you realized it is a baseless and empty way of living our Christianity.  If you do use that method of establishing practice and doctrine, we should elminate sunday school, all conferences and bible camps, any events or ministries catered to reaching out to  a subset of a church (e.g. youth meetings, ladies meetings, etc).  

2. Why do we even sing at all, especially during the Lord's supper?   When the Lord's supper was established in the gospels, the only singing recorded was at the end when they left to go to the Mt. of Olives.  If you research a traditional Jewish seder feast, jews do sing passover songs but the Holy Spirit, for whatever reason, omits the recording of this.  Should we establish doctrines and practice by this--that no singing should occur during the Lord's supper?   

The logic you have used in the past would seem to dictate such.

 

 

 

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 25 Oct 2010 3:21:19 AM Close

By the way it is anything but rebellious for a young person to ask for biblical basis for any practice in a church.  It is the responsibility of the oversight to take the scriptures and to clearly and systematically show why something is done.

You should be commended, for attempting this, even if your analysis is flawed in my view.  but please never call questioning rebellious.

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Reply by : roysjb007   View Profile   Since : 14 Oct 2015 8:36:08 AM Close

Mr.Flowingstones, I don't know where you belong to and how old you are. As Joyboy said it is the responsibililty of the oversight to clear the doubts with proper scripture  support. Only bible is the base for every born again believer(individual, family, assembly and society).

If your child ask a question which you could not answer and you don't know, will you call him/her rebellious. We take part in one flesh and blood, members of the same body. If you are an elder(age/responsibility) think and answer in line the scriptures. We say for everything there is answer in the bible. So, we should search the scriptures.

Because of  treating the Voice of Youth, perhaps a trifle rebellious, many have gone astray and had hatred on our assembly true doctrine. This thread might not been seen by many, elders(age/responsibility) understand the need of the youth living in this generation with hifi's, guide them with right scriptures instead of what was following over the years without any base scripture.

Roy

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Reply by : oct87   View Profile   Since : 8 Aug 2016 4:37:55 PM Close

i think i am a bit late replying to this... but still... what we need to understand is, music is a part of worship... it is acceptable to our God with or without instruments if you are going according to his word!

now the big debate is, are musical instruments really important? 
ans is simple, not important!!! if you can sing your heart out for the lord!!! your God!! the lover of your soul! instruments are not really important (but understand, i love instruments with songs, but bible dont teach us it is important so i stand with His word)
sub qus: can we use instruments?
yeah you can! but make sure you dont irritate or cause any problem for your brother sitting next to you!! so most probably you should be playing an acoustic instrument! not eletric right?? and when you are playing an instrument... you need to practice each song, so that you dont go wrong in chords or tempo or time signature! for that the whole assembly should be present for practice!! cus we all sing the songs together... am i right?? so a practice section for whole assembly before sunday for the worship... is that even possible??

now there is a possibility... that is... only if you have that good guy who is a musical genius in your assembly with instruments... maybe like The King David... i dont think in kerala we have one right now... i know it cus, i am into music field :) so, technically speaking, instruments for songs during worship might be a bad idea... cus it can sometimes it makes song so bad!!! you get a headache out of it... if it is done wrong... (without a practice section) 

now... there is a problem with our singing too... that i have seen... we usually sing songs just as a ritual in our assemblies!!! which is not the right way!!! songs have a meaning... and i know that if you mean everysong that you sing during our worship in your heart!!! your heart will be filled with tremendous emotions!!! you will sing your heart out!!! you might even cry!!! only if you mean what you sing... but sad to see... we dont mean any word of the lyrics that we sing!!! sad... very sad!! see David danced cus of joy... from singing!!! and here we are... with emotionless face!!

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 23 Aug 2016 6:06:10 PM Close

Oct87, thank you for your replies.  I just casually ended up here today after many months of absense.

This question of instrumentation in music is one that affects assemblies of all cultures, not just kb. 

The question shouldn't be "are they important", or "are they necessary" or "are they allowed", or even "should we have them", because these cannot be answered universally, since scripture is silent on all of them. The beauty of the assembly (brethren) movement is that each assembly makes a decision on its own for its context, and for its setting and its own demographics.  WE cannot judge assembly ABC for using instrumentation in the Lord's Supper nor can we judge assembly XYZ for not using instrumetation. Each assembly makes its own decisions.

Nothing should be inferred from scripture because the New Testament is silent or doesn't put emphasis on it. By that logic, the NT doesn't put emphasis on sisters learning in the local assembly (other than from the Lord Jesus directly or from Paul directly).  Does that mean we shouldn't have sisters' meetings?  Also, the NT only mentions children when Jesus says come unto me and the instruction to obey in the epistles. Does that mean we shouldn't have sunday school or camps or youth meetings?  

When we establish practice and doctrine by way of omission we are going down a dangerous road.  a road that should be avoided.  Instead, let the elders make decisions according to their own assembly's context and situation.  

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Reply by : ichabod   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2016 7:46:04 PM Close
This is a good read http://www.bible.ca/ntx-instrumental-music.htm
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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 29 Nov 2016 4:00:49 PM Close

no. that is not a good read. It makes the same mistake others make on the issue: It implies that we should act when no direction is given.  

See this statement:

In the New Testament, which is our guide today, the apostle, Paul, says that faith comes by hearing the word of God and that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. This is another way of saying that if you cannot find command or example for an act of worship in the will of Christ (the New Testament), you should not do that act. (Study Romans 10:17 and 14:23)

Thus, if an act of worship -is done without scriptural approval, it is done without faith, for faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Because that which is not of faith is sin, it is unnecessary that the Word of God prohibit the act; it is only necessary that it be uncommanded. Hence, the argument that instruments of music may be used because the Bible does not prohibit their use, is wrong.

Bolding is my own.  the conclusion above is not maintained by the scriptures.  If so, then everyhting we brethren (or anyone does) in our Lord's supper is wrong.  Where in scripture does it say that we should have a time of audible thoughts of holy spirit - led worship before taking part in the Lord's supper?  Where does it say that the women sit on one side and men the other side? I could go on and on.  

The basic principle is this: you cannot make conclusions when scripture is silent.  Anything else is working backwards from a pre-determined conclusion.  

 

 

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