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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: SABBATH VS. SUNDAY

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# 01526 :  SABBATH VS. SUNDAY
I am following a thread from "Activities on the Sabbath" where I had asked a question "Is the Sabbath binding on Christians today?" Since I did not get a reply I am posting an article that appeared in World Net Daily (a christian post) with this topic posted on March 16, 2008. I think all Bible believing believers need to read this. Since we do not follow tradition but the Bible alone "Sola Scriptura". The web link is : http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=57978 Another interesting post from the same publication is "Sunday, holy Sunday?" http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=11265 I am copying the text from the 1st link below: SABBATH VS. SUNDAY: THE REST OF THE STORY 'Deception': Christians war over worship day Centuries-old clash continues over disputed commandment. Posted: March 16, 2008 5:24 pm Eastern By Joe Kovacs © 2008 WorldNetDaily Two thousand years after Jesus walked the Earth, Christians are at war with each other concerning – as strange as it may sound – a day of the week mentioned in the Ten Commandments. The issue boils down to: "When is God's Sabbath?" In other words, what is His holy day of rest? Most Christians today think it's Sunday, when the majority of churches hold services. But others confidently say it's Saturday, calling Sunday worship "the most flagrant error of mainstream Christianity," believing Sunday-keepers are victims of clever deception. Some high-profile evangelical pastors such as California's Greg Laurie say it's simply "wrong to set Saturday apart as a special day for worship." Today, some high-school sports teams refuse to play in state tournaments for the sole reason the events are held on Saturday – what they say is God's Sabbath. Conversely, the 1981 film "Chariots of Fire" was based on the true story of Eric Liddell, a Scottish sprinter and Christian missionary who disqualified himself from his best event at the 1924 Olympics because the race was on Sunday – the Sabbath in his view. - contd. 2
Post by : sonnyvarghese  View Profile    since : 19 Mar 2008


Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:33:12 PM Close
- contd. 2
Christians seem irreparably split, as this issue goes back to the beginning of time itself.

In the beginning ...
There are seven days in a week, but historians have no consensus about the cycle's origin, since it has no basis in astronomy.
The Bible, though, indicates God created the Earth and its life forms in six days, and then rested on the seventh.
"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it." (Genesis 2:2-3)
Biblically speaking, the first six days of the week had no special name. They were simply identified by ordinal numbers, such as the first, second and third day. But the seventh day was given a unique name. In Hebrew, it's "shabbat," meaning "rest." In English, the word is "Sabbath," and it's detailed in the Fourth Commandment.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work ... . For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day." (Exodus 20:8-11)
In many languages, the word used for the seventh day of the week – what we call Saturday – is actually the same word used for "Sabbath." In Greek, it is sabbaton; Italian, sabato; Spanish, sábado; Russian, subbota; Polish, sobota; and Hungarian, szómbat. Even the French "samedi" is from the Latin "Sambata dies," for "day of the Sabbath."
Names of days in today's English come from ancient paganism, where they were originally associated with celestial objects and heathen gods.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images/story/daysofweek.jpg
In the King James Version of the Bible, the word "Sabbath" appears 137 times. The word "Sunday" is absent, though its equivalent, the first day of the week, occurs eight times – nine if the "first day" of creation is counted.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:34:28 PM Close
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Some examples of the use of Sabbath include:
• "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant." (Exodus 31:15-16)
• "But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the sabbath day." (Matthew 24:20)
• "Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." (Mark 2:28)
Most biblical scholars have little disagreement when asked what day the Bible specifically calls the Sabbath.
"The seventh day, Saturday," says Richard Bauckham, professor of New Testament at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. "No other day is called the Sabbath in Old or New Testaments."
In 2001, Jan Marcussen, a Seventh-Day Adventist from Thompsonville, Ill., was so sure there was no Bible verse declaring the first day to be the Sabbath, he offered up to $1 million for clear, Scriptural proof.
"I didn't get even one response claiming the $1 million from any theologian, bishop, cardinal, pope or anyone else," Marcussen, author of "National Sunday Law," told WORLD NET DAILY. "Why not? Because they can't. [Observing Sunday as the Sabbath] is the biggest hoax the world has ever seen."
But while the Bible never calls the first day of the week a Sabbath, the vast majority of Christians today gather for worship then. Many think Sabbath-keeping was either abolished or moved to Sunday once Jesus rose from the grave.
"There's not a simple answer," said Dr. Roger Felipe, a Baptist preacher from Marco Island, Fla., who is also director of programs for Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, part of Trinity International University. (http://www.tiu.edu/divinity/) "From [today's] Christian point of view, the Sabbath is Sunday."

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:36:50 PM Close
- contd. 4
There is little, if any, argument Jesus and His fellow Jews observed the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week, as the Bible states, "as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up to read." (Luke 4:16)
But it's what took place after His death and resurrection that's key.
The rising of the Son
One reason many Christians provide for gathering on Sunday is the belief Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week.
"It's a powerful symbol," says Felipe.
His sentiments echo a 1998 writing by Pope John Paul II (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html ) in which the pontiff referred to the origins of Sunday-keeping.
"In the weekly reckoning of time, Sunday recalls the day of Christ's Resurrection," the pope stated.
But the idea Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday is not universal.
The Bible is actually silent on the precise moment of resurrection. Jesus' followers came to His tomb before dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday), but they did not witness Him coming back to life. They merely found an empty tomb.

A tomb with a view

"Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen," is what an angel told the women. (Luke 24:5-6)
"Christ was already gone!" exclaims John Pinkston, a retired Air Force navigator who is founder and president of the Congregation of God Seventh Day (http://www.watchamerica.com/ )in Kennesaw, Ga. "So that shoots in the foot the belief that He was raised on Sunday."
Pinkston is typical of many Sabbath-keepers, believing Jesus was neither killed on a Friday, nor raised on Sunday. He believes Jesus was actually put to death on a Wednesday, and remained in the grave 72 hours until Saturday evening. When the women came to the tomb early Sunday, they found it empty, indicating Jesus arose prior to their arrival.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:38:14 PM Close
- contd. 5
Even the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, a Sunday-keeper and chancellor of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., agreed with that timetable, telling WORLD NET DAILY in 2001, (http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=11265 ) "I personally believe He was crucified on Wednesday evening ... and rose after 6 p.m. Saturday evening."
Most Christians today think Jesus died on a Friday and rose on Sunday. They point to Scriptures indicating a Sabbath day followed Jesus' execution. But Sabbath-keepers claim it was not the weekly Sabbath of Saturday approaching. Rather, they say it was an annual Sabbath, a "high" holy day in the Hebrew calendar known as the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which supposedly occurred on a Thursday the week Jesus was killed. The Gospel of John mentions that Sabbath was the annual type.
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) ... ." (John 19:31)
In other words, Sabbatarians say there was more than one day of rest that week. Their timeline has Jesus slain on Wednesday – the day before the "high day" annual Sabbath on Thursday. They believe Jesus was in the grave for a full three days and three nights, finally arising Saturday evening, the second Sabbath of the week.
The mention of "three days and three nights" is important for many, as Jesus used that phrase to prove His divine identity:
"For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so I, the Son of Man, will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights." (Matthew 12:40, New Living Translation)

There's disagreement if that phrase means a full three days and three nights – 72 hours – or merely parts of three days and three nights, leading many to stick with the Friday-evening-to-Sunday-morning timeline.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:40:26 PM Close
- contd. 6
The last shall be first?
Beyond the resurrection issue, there are several Bible references to "the first day of the week," none of which are clear on the Sabbath issue.
"The New Testament evidence is not conclusive, and nowhere 'ordains' or instructs [Sunday-keeping]," said Margaret M. Mitchell, professor of New Testament and Early Christian Literature at the University of Chicago Divinity School (http://divinity.uchicago.edu/faculty/mitchell.shtml ).
Mitchell says the "evidence is, historically speaking, tantalizing but not absolutely clear."
She notes the apostle Paul, for instance, in 1 Corinthians 16:2, "calls on the Corinthians to treasure up on the first day of the week."
"He does not explicitly say there whether the envisioned context is a gathering of the assembly, or if this refers to what people do in their own homes," Mitchell said.
Another mention of the first day is in Acts 20:7, as Paul is shown breaking bread with fellow believers in ancient Troas, a peninsula in modern-day Turkey: "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them ... ."
Mitchell told WORLD NET DAILY: "This text appears to show a particular Sunday eucharistic gathering, but it does not tell us if this replaced the Sabbath observance or stood alongside it, [i.e., people observed both]."

Interestingly, while most Bible versions use the phrase "first day of the week" in Acts 20:7, a 1990 word-for-word translation of the same Scripture by Greek experts Robert K. Brown and Philip W. Comfort in the New Greek English Interlinear New Testament from Tyndale House Publishers, actually renders it as "one of the Sabbaths."
Their version reads: "And on one of the Sabbaths having been assembled us to break bread, Paul was lecturing them ."

If the Tyndale translation is accurate, it could heighten the Saturday-vs.-Sunday controversy, since this alleged evidence for Sunday worship may not have been a Sunday at all, but the usual Saturday Sabbath.
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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:46:23 PM Close
- contd. 7
'The Lord's Day' – or is that 'Day of the Lord'?
And then there's something called "the Lord's Day." Though mentioned just once in the Bible, many today assume it means Sunday.
The Scripture, written by the apostle John on the Greek island of Patmos, says, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." (Revelation 1:10)

Some Sabbatarians like Pinkston believe the term has no connection to the first day of the week.
"It's not talking anything about Sunday," he said. "It's talking about the 'Day of the Lord' mentioned in the Old Testament. It's prophecy about when Christ comes back. The Book of Revelation reveals the events of the 'Day of the Lord.' It has nothing to do with a worship day."
Others think it is indeed a worship day, but not Sunday. They suggest "the Lord's Day" is actually a Saturday Sabbath, noting Jesus called himself "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28) and that God referred to the Sabbath as "my holy day." (Isaiah 58:13)
Thus, according to this reasoning, if any day of the week were really "the Lord's Day," it's the seventh-day Sabbath, not Sunday.
However, Prof. Bauckham in Scotland believes there's good evidence from early Christian sources the phrase does indeed refer to Sunday.
"John probably means that his visionary experience happened during the time when other Christians were gathered for worship," he said.
"The other interpretation [equating it with the 'Day of the Lord'] doesn't really make sense because the earlier parts of the vision are not placed temporally at the end of history. That is only approached over several chapters [into Revelation]."
The Encyclopedia Britannica equates Sunday with "the Lord's Day" in Christianity, stating, "The practice of Christians gathering together for worship on Sunday dates back to apostolic times, but details of the actual development of the custom are not clear."

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:47:30 PM Close
- contd. 8
The New Testament, penned within the first century, never specifically mentions a Sabbath change.
"From a logical point of view," says Pinkston, "if the New Testament had intended for us to start worshipping on the first day of the week, then we'd find ample evidence for it. Yet, it's not in there."
One example Sabbatarians point to is when Paul is shown preaching to both Jews and Gentiles (non-Hebrews) on a Sabbath, and not Sunday. He's then asked to preach again on the following Sabbath.
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. ... And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God." (Acts 13:42-44)
The argument is, if there were some kind of worship on the first day of the week, then Paul would have just told the people – especially those with no connection to Jewish customs – to simply come back tomorrow (Sunday) to learn more, rather than wait an entire week for the next Sabbath to arrive.

Man of the Sabbath
A well-known expert on the Sabbath is Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/author ) a retired theology professor at Andrews University in Michigan.
Bacchiocchi earned his doctorate in Church History at the Pontifical Gregorian University (http://www.unigre.it/newbiblio/index_en.htm ) in Rome and was awarded a gold medal by Pope Paul VI for his summa cum laude class work and dissertation, "From Sabbath to Sunday: A Historical Investigation of the Rise of Sunday Observance in Early Christianity." (http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=2262)
Bacchiocchi, a Seventh-Day Adventist, believes there's no Scriptural mandate to change or eliminate Sabbath-keeping, and he singles out the Catholic Church for its role in changing the day.
"The Church of the capital of the empire, whose authority was already felt far and wide in the second century, appears to be the most likely birthplace of Sunday observance," he writes.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:48:32 PM Close
- contd. 9
In the 1876 book, "The Faith of Our Fathers," James Cardinal Gibbons, the Catholic archbishop of Baltimore, agreed the shift to Sunday was not based on the Bible, but was solely the work of the Catholic Church.
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify," Gibbons wrote.
Bacchiocchi also told WORLD NET DAILY: "Anti-Judaism caused the abandonment of the Sabbath, and pagan sun worship influenced the adoption of Sunday."
He says evidence of anti-Judaism is found in the writings of Christian leaders such as Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin in the second century (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/7.html ). He notes these three "witnessed and participated in the process of separation from Judaism which led the majority of the Christians to abandon the Sabbath and adopt Sunday as the new day of worship."
Bacchiocchi also explains the influence of pagan sun worship (http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/8.htm ) provides a "plausible explanation for the Christian choice of Sunday" over the day of Saturn. Its effect wasn't just limited to Sunday. It apparently led to the placement of Jesus' birth in late December.
"The adoption of the 25th of December for the celebration of Christmas is perhaps the most explicit example of sun worship's influence on the Christian liturgical calendar," Bacchiocchi writes. "It is a known fact that the pagan feast of the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti – the birthday of the Invincible Sun, was held on that date."
Christian facts, pagan Mithras
One of the Roman names for this "Invincible Sun" god in the days of the apostles was Mithras. There are striking similarities between the ancient worship of Mithras and today's Christianity, leading some to think early Christians adopted Sunday worship from heathen customs.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:50:20 PM Close
- contd. 10
For instance, Mithraism's sacred day of Sunday was said to be called "the Lord's Day."
Donald Morse, a retired professor at Temple University, wrote a 1999 essay comparing the tenets of Mithraism to modern Christianity, explaining Mithras was worshipped on Sunday; was born of a virgin known as the "mother of God" on Dec. 25; was part of a holy trinity; and had a "Last Supper" with his 12 followers before his death and resurrection at Easter time near the spring equinox.
Mithraists were also taught they had immortal souls that went to a celestial heaven or an infernal hell at death.
"All of these religions intermingled in those days," Morse, who is Jewish, told WORLD NET DAILY. "There's no way to know who stole from whom."
On the change from Sabbath to Sunday, Morse suggested early Christian leaders including Paul felt "the best way to convert pagans was to not have them change too much. Just accept their [pagan] holidays, as long as they accepted Jesus as Messiah. They didn't really have to do much more than that."

There's no place like Rome

As Christianity spread through the pagan Roman Empire, it was finally given official toleration in the year 312 by Emperor Constantine, who purportedly had a vision that prompted his soldiers to fight under a "symbol of Christ," leading to a key military victory. The emperor then restored confiscated church property and even offered public funds to churches in need.
Sunday observance received a historic boost when Constantine – himself a pagan who is said to have adopted Christianity at least nominally – established Sunday as the first day of the week in the Roman calendar and issued a mandatory order prohibiting work on that day, in honor of the sun god.
On March 7, 321, he decreed, "On the venerable Day of the Sun, let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed." Farmers were given an exception.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:51:39 PM Close
- contd.12
"The importance of the actions of Constantine cannot be overstated," says author Richard Rives in "Too Long in the Sun." (http://www.toolong.com/index.htm ) "During his reign, pagan sun worship was blended with the worship of the Creator, and officially entitled 'Christianity.'"
Before the end of the 4th century, Sunday observance prevailed over Saturday.
At the Council of Laodicea ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm ) in 363, the Church of Rome – today known as the Roman Catholic Church – declared: "Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord's Day [Sunday]; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."
In 380, Emperor Theodosius made Sunday-keeping Catholic Christianity the official religion (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/theodcodeXVI.html ) of the empire, outlawing all other faiths:
We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that the shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics.
While some went along with the decrees, others apparently did not. A letter from Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, possibly reveals Saturday Sabbath-keeping in his own town, while Sunday was being observed in Rome. It led to the well-known proverb, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." (http://www.answers.com/topic/when-in-rome-do-as-the-romans-do) .
Once Sunday had the imperial power of the Roman Catholic government behind it, Saturday Sabbath-keepers became less visible, though some Sabbatarian websites have documented mentions (http://sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history1.asp ) of seventh-day observers through the centuries.
For example, the Catholic Church persecuted Sabbath-keepers in the 15th century (http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p122.html ).

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:54:34 PM Close
- contd. 12
For example, the Catholic Church persecuted Sabbath-keepers in the 15th century (http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p122.html ). At the Catholic Provincial Council of Bergen, Norway, in 1435, it was said:
We are informed that some people in different districts of the kingdom, have adopted and observed Saturday-keeping.
It is severely forbidden – in holy church canon – [for] one and all to observe days excepting those which the holy pope, archbishop, or the bishops command. Saturday-keeping must under no circumstances be permitted hereafter further that the church canon commands. Therefore we counsel all the friends of God throughout all Norway who want to be obedient towards the holy church to let this evil of Saturday-keeping alone; and the rest we forbid under penalty of severe church punishment to keep Saturday holy.
The Catholic Encyclopedia even refers to Sabbath-keeping as "the superstitious observance of Saturday," (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/16009b.htm ) noting it was forbidden by that council.

Coming to America
As Christianity headed west, the earliest settlers to America included both Sunday-keepers – such as the Puritans who landed at Plymouth, Mass., in 1620 – and Sabbath-observers like the Seventh Day Baptists, ( http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7db/Default_EN.asp ) whose first church was founded in Newport, R.I., in 1671.
When the Puritan Christians used the word Sabbath, they would mean Sunday – "the Lord's Day" – and passed rules enforcing its observance from sunset Saturday to sunset Sunday.
Connecticut's so-called Blue Laws of the 1650s had strict codes of conduct said to include:
• No one shall run on the Sabbath day, or walk in his garden or elsewhere, except reverently to and from meeting.
• No one shall travel, cook victuals, make beds, sweep house, cut hair, or shave, on the Sabbath day.
• No one shall read Common-Prayer, keep Christmas or saints-day make minced pies, dance, play cards, or play on any instrument of music, except the drum, trumpet ..

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 4:56:16 PM Close
- contd. 13
Christians observing the Sabbath on Saturday also spread throughout America, but in fewer numbers than Sunday-keepers.
The teachings of the Seventh Day Baptists are said to be instrumental in the founding of the Seventh-day Adventist Church – (http://www.adventist.org/ ) which claims a membership today of 15 million – and the Church of God (Seventh Day) – (http://cog7.org/ ) which has more than 200 congregations in the U.S. and Canada and a worldwide fellowship of more than 300,000.
Other Christians promoting Saturday rest include many offshoots of the Worldwide Church of God, such as the United Church of God, Living Church of God, Church of God International, Philadelphia Church of God and Intercontinental Church of God.
Messianic Jews, including Dallas-based Zola Levitt Ministries, (http://www.levitt.com/ ) are also seventh-day proponents.
Some Sabbatarians, such as Richard Ames of the Living Church of God, produce TV shows like "Tomorrow's World," asking, "Which day is the Christian Sabbath?" (http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/tw/telecast/tw-telecast.cgi?category=Media1&item=1104431171 )

On one program, Ames points to Luke 4:16 in the Bible and says, "It was Jesus' regular custom to worship on the Sabbath, and since that time, and centuries before, the Jewish community has very carefully documented their observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, Saturday. In other words, history demonstrates that time has not been lost, that the seven-day cycle has been accurately recorded to this day."
In another episode, (http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/tw/telecast/tw-telecast.cgi?category=Media1&item=1146121238 ) Ames' colleague, Roderick C. Meredith, calls Sunday observance "the most flagrant error of mainstream Christianity" and "the most obvious deception of all."
"Do you realize that this deception is blinding millions of people from knowing God?" asks Meredith.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2008 5:01:02 PM Close
- contd. 14
Despite such rhetoric, many Catholic and Protestant Sunday-keepers reject Sabbath-keeping on Saturday.

At the same time, though, the minister supports the idea of resting one day each week to stay on track with God.
"Humanity has forsaken the importance of Sabbath rest," he said. "God desires us to be renewed spiritually. We should observe a day ... to be consecrated and to be devoted to God, to be renewed and refreshed. In terms of affecting the human quality of life, it would do us very well to observe a Sabbath rest."
Above article is from the Website: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=57978

Also see: Anti-Judaism at root of 'Sunday Sabbath'? http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58526

END OF COPIED TEXT

Dear Brothers,
Sorry for making this Post this long.
I also have evidence that early Christians kept Saturday (Sabbath) in Kerala until the arrival of the Portugese.

The meaning of the word 'Nazrani' means a follower of Christ, but always applied to one who worshipped on Saturday and did not eat pork or hare.

I will send those who are interested links for those articles if you e-mail me, or reply to this post.

Thank you for reading and may the Holy Spirit guide each of you to the truth. Let each persons conscience decide what is right and what is wrong.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Mar 2008 10:21:59 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

After going through your 14 part posting, I wonder about the purpose of this thread. You have not provided scriptural justification, but provided a lengthy aritcle.

If you are interested to look into the scriptures about the subject, please tell us where do we read about Sunday, in the Bible?

What did the Lord Jesus Christ say about Sabbath?

What was the day of the week that was preferred by the apsotles to gather together as an assembly of believers to remember the Lord's death?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 20 Mar 2008 8:00:38 PM Close
Dear George Koshy,

As I stated at the begining of this post, I had posed a question on another thread started by Ajay Jameson and since I did not receive a reply, simply copied the article that I read.

To answer your question:
Jesus and his disciples kept the Jewish sabbath. At no time did Jesus or any of His disciples break the Sabbath commandment - the way it was intended to be kept. The only thing the Jews criticized Jesus on, was regarding the manner He kept it. Keep in mind that the Jews had created a host of laws and regulations that had no divine mandate in the old testament. Jesus properly justified all His actions.

Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that God changed one of His commandments. None of the disciples advocated a change of the commandment regarding the day of worship. Most churches and theologians agree that it was the Roman Catholic Church that changed the day of worship. When the Brethern church was formed, it was to adhere to the Bible, which the Marthoma Church (though it had itself split from the Jacobite church due to their perception that the Jacobites were not following the Bible) did not adhere to and had doctrines that were not biblical. The leaders of that day debated on which day to worship on and decided to worship on Sunday, like the rest of the churches, though they realized that there was no Biblical mandate. (As told to me by my grandfather). Also if you look at the rules imposed by the Synod of Diamper/Udyampoor some of the rules were that the Christians there should refrain from reading their Bibles, and worshipping on Saturday. Why would the rule state thus, if the Christians then were worshipping on Sunday? I think that we really need to look at what the Bible says and follow the Bible if we are to base our faith on the Bible and Bible alone.

In my next post I will give you the Biblical references from the Books of Acts - that you asked quotations from.

- contd. 2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 20 Mar 2008 8:23:32 PM Close
contd. 2
(Dear George Koshy)

Below are 7 Bible references from the book of Acts showing that Paul and the other disciples worshipped on the Jewish sabbath.

1. Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

2. Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

3. Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

4. Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

5. Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.

6. Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures,

7. Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

The one verse we like to quote to show that the disciples worshipped on Sunday is in Acts 20:7 but if you look carefully "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." But the disciples broke bread everyday. Acts 2:46 " And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart," The verse in 20:7 simply talks about a meeting when they had a regular meal and not a day or worship.

One of the things people of the Bible ought to remember is that we use only the Bible to interpret itself and not outside sources. I am therefore troubled to think that we may not be right regarding our day of worship. Can you tell me otherwise.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 Mar 2008 7:28:26 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

Thank you for the reply. In that you wrote, “One of the things people of the Bible ought to remember is that we use only the Bible to interpret itself and not outside sources. I am therefore troubled to think that we may not be right regarding our day of worship. Can you tell me otherwise.”

We will use the Bible as our only authority and source on doctrines. We may use other writings to understand the way man thinks, but they shall not be the authority. No man made works will be at par with the Word of God in our discussions.

You did quote many verses from the Word of God about Sabbath. I failed to read in any of them, or in their context in the Bible, that the Jews worshipped on Sabbath. I might have missed, some, because I am writing this in a hurry. Could you explain how you came to conclude that the Sabbath day gathering of the Jews in synagogues were to worship?

After your explanation, we will discuss about Acts 2:46-47 and 20:7. As you wrote, your explanation should be from the Bible alone.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Mar 2008 9:05:55 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

We should not forget about threads like this, when there are threads with heated discussion that are away from the scriptures.

After reading your previuous postings, I was hoping to have a real discussion using the Bible alone as our basis. I hope to hear from you soon.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 28 Mar 2008 4:07:54 PM Close
Dear George P Koshy,

I am sorry for not replying earlier. I had to go on a long trip and just returned and checked this post today.

Back to the topic: When we read about the Jews in the Old Testament and the Early Christians in the New Testament, we find in all the scriptural references that they worshipped at either the Temple in Jerusalem (after the temple was built) and in the local synagogues on the Jewish Sabbath, i.e., Saturday.

I cannot find a single reference where either the Early Church or the disciples worshipped on any other day, other than references that they worshipped everyday. However, I am referring above to corporate worship and not individual or family worship, or house worship.

In fact it is my opinion that house to house worships be conducted everyday, by a group of believers, not just to strengthen our own faith but the faith of others who do not follow such practices.

My problem is that the origin of Sunday worship is Pagan in its origin, baptized by the Catholic Church and made official by it. In fact the Roman Catholic Church does state that they changed the day of worship to Sunday and not by any Biblical mandate but by the power and authority of the Catholic Church. Are we then blindly following the Catholic Church and using their own arguments to satisfy ourselves or can we prove from the Bible that we need to have corporate worship as a Church on Sunday and not Saturday?

Regards,

Sonny

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 28 Mar 2008 4:15:09 PM Close
P.S.
Bro. George Koshy,

I usually use only the King James Bible since I believe that the original meaning and intent can still be found in the original language. Although we can use any other translation. The original Malayalam Bible used by the early Kerala Christians was the Peshito Version. There is a translation called Murdoch's translation which is the translation from the Peshito Version. This is very much in line with the King James Version. So when you ask me for a text, I will quote from the King James Version, if you don't mind.

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 29 Mar 2008 9:24:00 PM Close
Sonny quoted the following on 19 Mar 2008 16:36:50

"But the idea Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday is not universal.
The Bible is actually silent on the precise moment of resurrection. Jesus' followers came to His tomb before dawn on the first day of the week (Sunday), but they did not witness Him coming back to life. They merely found an empty tomb.

A tomb with a view

"Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen," is what an angel told the women. (Luke 24:5-6)
"Christ was already gone!" exclaims John Pinkston, a retired Air Force navigator who is founder and president of the Congregation of God Seventh Day (http://www.watchamerica.com/ )in Kennesaw, Ga. "So that shoots in the foot the belief that He was raised on Sunday."
Pinkston is typical of many Sabbath-keepers, believing Jesus was neither killed on a Friday, nor raised on Sunday. He believes Jesus was actually put to death on a Wednesday, and remained in the grave 72 hours until Saturday evening. When the women came to the tomb early Sunday, they found it empty, indicating Jesus arose prior to their arrival.

Even the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, a Sunday-keeper and chancellor of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., agreed with that timetable, telling WORLD NET DAILY in 2001, (http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=11265 ) "I personally believe He was crucified on Wednesday evening ... and rose after 6 p.m. Saturday evening."

-------

The Bible is not silent on this as the quote makes us to believe.

These people who claim to be "scholars" and "reverands" need to read their Bibles carefully and more often:

Mark 16:9

Now when Jesus was RISEN EARLY THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene...

It is sad that people who claim to be "scholars" and "reverands" decieve others by delibrately ignoring relavent scripture to prove a point by hook or crook. This is pure SDA propoganda.

I have noticed that many popular enemies of Christ indulge in this type of behavior.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 Apr 2008 9:07:12 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

In an earlier posting you wrote, "One of the things people of the Bible ought to remember is that we use only the Bible to interpret itself and not outside sources. I am therefore troubled to think that we may not be right regarding our day of worship. Can you tell me otherwise.”

In the light of this statement, let me repeat once again my question, in a diferent way. Where do we read in the Bible that the Jews met on the Sabbath to worship? In your writings, it is clear that that is your argument against Sunday. The next question is, where do we read about Sunday in the Bible?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2008 7:35:06 AM Close
Dear brethren,

I am a little surprised that there should be a debate about this matter. The command relating to the sabbath belonged to the Mosaic law. God gave it as a pattern to be followed for man's blessing and rest. We are not under the law.

Many scriptures commend to us the observance of the first day of the week as the day in which Christians gather and hold specially for fellowship and the breaking of bread, i.e. the Lord's Supper. Why should we be agitated about theories put forward by those whose purpose is to draw attention to themselves by promoting novelties?

Once again I state, as I have done many times before, that I am no Greek scholar. However my understanding is that the most accurate translation of Luke 24:1 is, "But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb...." If we search the scriptures diligently we accept that according to the Lord's own words He would rise again on the third day and we can easily work out that that day was the first of the week.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2008 1:18:52 PM Close

Christ was indeed crucified on a Friday, since the soldiers broke the legs of the thieves, so that they would die sooner, not wanting to prolong the crucification, into the Sabbath Day. It was not unheard of for people to survive 24 hours or more on the cross, since it is a slow death. Thats why Pilate was surprised to hear that Christ died in 6 hours.

On the Sabbath Day, Christ was physically dead and His Spirit descended into the lower parts of the earth. That Sabbath Day was indeed a day of physical rest for His body. In fact Christ fulfilled the commandment to observe the Sabbath, by finishing His work of Salvation the day before (He cried "It is finished") and physically resting in death on Saturday.

All members of the NT church of God, predestined from eternity to be conformed to the image of Christ, also died with Christ in His death (as Paul eloquently explains in Romans). So if you are a child of God, you were dead that Saturday in His death. In Christ, you fulfilled the law of Sabbath.

Then Christ rose again Sunday morning (the 3rd day,as He said Himself). With Him we all have been raised too. From that Sunday onwards, everyone predestined to be children of God, has no association with an earthly Sabbath Day, especially in connection to Mosaic law. Even outside of Mosaic law, Christ has fulfilled God's Holy Day, the day God rested from Creation, just as Christ rested from the work of salvation.

Since we have been raised with Christ in the newness of life, we are seated in heaven, where everyday is a day of rest in the risen Lord. Everyday is "holy day" in Christ.

That is why, it does not matter WHICH DAY we gather to worship and take part in the Lord's Table. Sunday is just as good a day to worship as any other day.

I personally feel that ideally, brothers in Christ should meet DAILY to worship and remember His death via the Lord's Table. Of course in following the first century church, our choice of Sunday is still good.

In Christ, NT believers have NO SPIRITUAL CONNECTION to OT Sabbath Day.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2008 5:15:20 PM Close
Dear believer.bible,

I merely copied an article that appeared in worldnet daily, see top of this topic and not my personal view or quote. So please do not misquote me in your article. Please read the article - I have provided the links in the text I copied - before you jump to any conclusion.

Thank you and warm regards,

Sonny Varghese

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2008 6:04:57 PM Close
Dear George Koshy,

I still do not understand your question. There is no question that the Jews worshipped on Saturday.

We see the first written command as part of thee 10 commandments. Exodus 20:8-11 has command to keep the sabbath holy and states that it is the 7th day. Just because the 10 commandments were given in written form here does not mean that they were not in existence before. This commandment like all other 9 commandments were given at the time of creation but in verbal form. Otherwise there would be no sin. Because sin can be called the breaking of the commandment i.e., transgression of the law.

Now the Jews in addition to the weekly sabbath also had other additional sabbath's:
1. The Passover also called the 1st day of unlevened bread.
2. The 7th day of that feast.
3. The day of pentecost (celebrated on the fiftieth day after the first-fruits of barley harvest).
4. The 1st day of the 7th month.
5. The day of Atonement (10th day of the 7th month).
6. Feast of Tabernacles (15th day of the 7th month).
7. End of Feast of Tabernacles (2nd day of the 7th month or 8th day of the Feast of Tabernacles).
In addition to these sabbaths they also worshipped on new moons. These additional sabbaths and new moons were part of the Mosaic Laws and not part of the 10 commandments.

If we look at the Old Testament, there are more than 50 references to the word Sabbath, and most of them refer to the sabbath in the fourth commandment. The new Testament also has almost 50 references to the word Sabbath and they to refer to the sabbath in the fourth commandment, except in Col. 2:16 where the reference is to the Mosaic Sabbaths and New Moons and not the sabbath commandment in the 10 commandment.

contd.-2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2008 6:42:04 PM Close
contd. 2
Now regarding the services at a local synagogue, we can say that they might have had daily services, primarily for imparting religious instruction. However, the primary purpose was for religious instruction and prayer on Saturdays. So their main day of worship was on Saturday. The early christians worshipped at the local synagogues along with the Jews then worshipped separately when the Jews started persecuting them. Around AD 80-90 rabbinical authorities introduced a curse of the Christians into the daily prayer (Birkath-ha-Minin) which caused separation. Keep in mind that all the early Christians had for their reading in the synagogues and places of worship, whether at home or by fields or riversides were the scripture. There has been no scriptural mandate to change the day of worship.
Later in history we find that the Nazaranes always kept the seventh day sabbath. The malabar Christians kept the seventh day sabbath till the advent of Vasco da Gama, i.e., for 1500 years after the resurrection of Christ. In 1260 the pope sent an emmissary with a letter asking the Nazrani Christians of Malabar to give up this schism and join the mother church.
God gave the commandment at creation.
He made us remember it in tables of stone.
He kept it when He lived among us.
His disciples kept it.
He asked us to keep His commandments if we loved Him.
Are we to change this - using our own justifications - for what purpose?

Our opinion about the Bible are not the thing that matters. What is vital is Gods purpose through a human author and the method by which we discover that intent. We need to begin by commiting ourselves to the Word of God, no matter what opinions we may have brought to our study. We must give careful attention to the words of the text in context, allow each word to have its place in revealing the message God would have us see. The only truth that matters is the one He intended.

Or let us not call ourselves people who follow the Bible.

Christian regards,
Sonny Varghese

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2008 7:07:38 PM Close
Dear John Miller

The 4th commandment in my bible is not part of the Mosaic Law. The 10 commandments were written by the finger of God and written in stone, to signify that it is eternal - that is cannot be rubbed out. I agree with you that the Mosaic Law was abolished by Christ by His death on the Cross. However, as stated in the Catholic cathecism, the Catholic Church by its power vested on it changed the observance of the sabbath from saturday to sunday. Most protestant denominations state that they follow the Catholic Church in this regard. Not by any Biblical mandate.
The early christian writers, Barnabas, Ignatius of Antioch, Tertullian, Cyprian and Eusibius advocated worship on the 1st day of the week in honor of Christ's resurrection. The question then is whose writings do you follow? The writings inspired, as found in the scripture, or early church fathers, who had other reasons.
The primary reason was the amalgamation of the early christian church with pagan rome which in turn gave rise to the papacy. Pagan Rome followed the venerable day of the sun, which came from Mithraism and early Egyptian Sun worship. Most pagan religions worshipped the sun. Some of the early church fathers thought the change would make christianity more palatable to pagans. Thus we have many baptized forms of paganism in christianity today. Its just called by some other names. Question is what answer will you give God when He asks you? If you loved His commandment or someone elses. If you loved His Son or another Sun.

Please keep studying prayerfully,

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 5 Apr 2008 7:35:30 AM Close
Dear sonnyvarghese,

You need to read the following verses:

2 Cor 3:
7 - But if the ministration of DEATH, written and engraven in STONES, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 - How shall not the ministration of the SPIRIT be rather glorious?

9 - For if the ministration of CONDEMNATION be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 - For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 - For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Clearly, according to v11, somethings have been done away with. Can you study this passage and also the entire chapter and identify what was taken away and what has replaced it?

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 6 Apr 2008 5:50:24 PM Close
Dear Sonny,

Quote:

"I merely copied an article that appeared in worldnet daily, see top of this topic and not my personal view or quote."

On 29 Mar 2008 21:24:00 I wrote the following:

"Sonny quoted the following on 19 Mar 2008 16:36:50 "

I said "you quoted", not that "you wrote". For me copying text and quoting text are one and the same. So I am not saying anything against you. I am saying against the people who wrote the article and have misled readers by ignoring important scripture.

Sorry if I have not written my words clearly and if I may have sounded I wrote about you.

In Christ,

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 15 Apr 2008 7:24:01 PM Close
Dear Moses2006

In 2 Corinthians chapter 3 Paul is commending us to live a holy life in showing others that we are following the example of life. If you read verse 3 Paul says "You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of the human heart" (New International Version).
Verse 7 is talking about the glory with which the ten commandments were given, and how much a better glory we see when we live a righteous life. For this we have to put on the full armour of the gospel. Live a true Christian life and be an example to others so others can see the Jesus in each one of us.
This does not mean that any of the old commandments were done away with because Jesus himself said, "if you love me, keep my commandments" and He himself was the one who gave the commandments. The commandments are everlasting and are not done away with because in Revelation we read, the saved are those that keep the commandments of God. Paul also talks about the law and commandments being holy in the 7th chapter of Romans.

However, many in the Catholic church have misinterpreted the Bible and have said that the commandments have been done away with. Therefore, we have:
1. Many Gods
2. Graven Images
3. God's name is taken in vain
4. Sabbath has been changed
5. Nobody cares for parents - even in Christs time people used the word Korban
6. Church commanded persecution and killings - more than any religious group
7. Adultery is common
8. Okay to steal - especially in Gods name
9. False witnessing is done on a large scale by church by manufacture of false documents and false teachings
10. Coveting is a virtue, especially someone elses spouse.

When the commandments are written in your heart you will not sin because you are always aware of it.

Hope this has shed some light on the verse you quoted.

Regards
Sonny

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 15 Apr 2008 7:37:37 PM Close
Dear beliver.bible

It simply means that we have to look at the Bible for our guide. The article written by World News Daily does not reflect any churches position, particularly the SDA. I checked their belief's and they do believe, like all main Christian churches, that Christ was born on Friday and resurrected on a Sunday morning. It is true that whoever wrote the article has misled some in parts of the article. However, whatever he wrote about worshipping on the 7th day sabbath is correct according to the Bible. Sunday worship has its roots in paganism and the marriage of some parts of Christianity with Roman paganism. You should read Edward Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall of the Holy Roman Empire' a very authoritative history book. However, if you look at the history of Christianity in Malabar - you can check it from good sources in the internet - you will find that till the advent of the Portuguese, the Christians in Kerala worshipped on Saturday and not Sunday. Michael Geddes wrote a book in the 1600's, the earliest published english book about the History of the Church in Kerala and the Acts of the Synod of Diamper. In it he tells that the church there worshipped on Saturdays and not Sundays - for 1500 years.
Another good book to refer to is "The Goan Inquisition" by Claudius Buchannan. What we are doing is following the teachings of the Catholic Church and not the Bible. Check it out for yourself.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 16 Apr 2008 7:16:59 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

The Bible differs with all the historians, like Michael Geddes. The Bible tells us that the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first-day of the week. We read this in the book that deals with the history of the Assembly. But we would like to give credibility to man's words, rather than God's word. A shameful situation!

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 16 Apr 2008 8:37:32 AM Close
Dear Sonny -

Let me quote you the Lord in Mat 22:29 - Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.."

Your said "The 10 commandments were written by the finger of God and written in stone, to signify that it is eternal - that is cannot be rubbed out."

To this I quoted Paul who said, "ministration of DEATH, written and engraven in STONES was glorious,..which glory was to be DONE AWAY" - clearly just because God wrote it on a stone, does not mean significance to US (NT believers).

I agree with you that the 10 commandments were given by the Lord Jesus. But you should realize that it was given to the 'political' nation of Israel. It is not without significance, but without any value in Christ. Keeping the 10 commandments, WILL NOT JUSTIFY ANYONE BEFORE GOD. Thus it is USELESS before God and to us in this age of GRACE.

Why do you want to take that which has no merit and impose it on us, who have become partakers of God's grace in Christ? You have become like the false teachers in Acts, who imposed upon the Gentile believers the practice of circumcision.

The 10 commandments do not apply to a believer - what matters is Christ living is us by faith and empowering us to do His will and Him changing us to become like Him. Christ in us - the basis of God's grace and the hope of our glory - Rom 5: 1,2

How could you say this statement "the saved are those that keep the commandments of God" - do you realize what GRACE is at all?

On what basis are you saved, if I may ask?

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 16 Apr 2008 4:35:53 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

I do not find the word "Sunday" in my bible. What I find is significant references to the first day of the week. It is undeniable to those who believe God's word that Christ rose from the tomb on the first day of the week. Several scriptures attest to this. Acts 20:7 clearly links the breaking of bread, the most important gathering for Christian fellowship and worship, with the first day of the week. John in commencing to recount what was revealed to him in Revelation (ch.1:10) goes further and names the day as the Lord's Day.

All this talk about pagan worship and the church of Rome is just a smokescreen. If we are to go back to the literal sabbath the seventh day of the week, then we must also adopt the sabbatical year as outlined in Exodous ch.23 and Leviticus ch.25.

The thought of the sabbath for the Christian is purely spiritual and is explained in Heb. ch.4.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 17 Apr 2008 1:24:52 AM Close
Following are the answer I given to in this forum regarding the Sabath:

Sabbath was in the ten Commandments: (Exo 20: 3 – 17)

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Out of this 10 commandments 9 commandments are re-instated in the New Testament:

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

6 Commandments included in Mat 19: 18-19, (1) Murder, (2) Adultery, (3) Steal, (4) Fasle Witness, (5) Honour Father & Mother, (6) Love the neighbour

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Worshiping the God involves the first 3 commandments:
(1) You should have no other gods other than me (The Living God) (2) Not make any graven image or likeness (3) You should not bow down or serve other gods.

Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

We do not see any re-instating or re-institution of Sabbath in the New Testament rather our Lord himself said that he is the Lord of the Sabbath.

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Our Lord went to teach in Synagogue (Mat 12: 8 – 12)

Apostle Paul taught in the Sabbath day.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 17 Apr 2008 1:26:27 AM Close
Importance of the 1st day of the week Sunday.

Jesus Christ resurrected on the first day of the week:

Joh 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Jesus Christ appeared to the disciples on the first day of the week:

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

The Holy Spirit came on Pentecost as a Comforter on the first day of the week:

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

Apostle Peter preached, 3000 converted, baptized and broke the bread on the first day of the week:

This is happened on Pentecost ( Acts 2)

Earlier Christian gathered on the first day of the week to breaking of the bread:

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Apostle Paul instructed to contribute on the first day of the week:

1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 8:40:29 PM Close
If I may contribute my two bits here:

What is Jesus supreme, ultimate and authoritative verdict on the great controversy between Sabbath and Sunday?
First of all, He is our supreme example (1 Pet. 2:21, Jn. 10:27) And it was His custom to keep the Sabbath - Luke 4:16; just like the custom that Paul followed too - Acts 17:2, Acts 13:14 & 42-44, Acts 16: 13, Acts 18: 4 & 11.
Secondly, Jesus commands us to keep His Father's Ten Commandments (of which the Sabbath is the Fourth Commandment), authoritatively and very clearly - Matt. 19:17, Lk. 10:28 and Jn. 12:50. Indeed, He clearly says that the keeping of His Father's Commandments is a condition for inheriting eternal life! Again in His final revelation to us, He repeats this in Rev. 22:14, "Blessed are those who do His Commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city." Christ, through John, defines the True Worshippers in Rev. 12: 17 and in Rev. 14: 12 as those who also keep the Father's Commandments. The Apostles also reaffirm this necessity in 1 Cor. 7: 19, 1 Tim. 6: 13- 14, 1 John 5:2-3, 2 John v. 4-6 Rom. 3:31, Rom. 2:26-29, Rom. 2:13, Rom. 7:22, Rom. 8:7 James 2:10-12, Heb. 10:16, and Heb. 8:10. According to James 2: 10-12 we are to keep all ten Commandments, not just some of them.
Thirdly, in His prophecy on the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:14,15-21), Jesus foresaw His followers continuing to observe the Sabbath, and He is concerned that they will be confronted with the problem of fleeing on the Sabbath. He said in Matt. 24:20, "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath." Our Messiah clearly foresaw the permanence of Sabbath-keeping by True Worshippers.
God did not abolish the Sabbath, which is part of the Ten Commandment Law. He explicitly stated: He did not come to destroy the Law. The Matt. 5:17-19 "Do not think that I came to destroy [or abolish or annul] the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy [or abolish or annul] but to fill.

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 8:45:04 PM Close
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For verily I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all come to pass [or be accomplished].

Why then has Sunday become the day of worship instead of Sabbath? Why are we not keeping Sabbath while Sabbath-observance will be practised in the new earth by those who have survived the end-time judgment? Isa. 66:23. Who then changed the Sabbath to Sunday? Is the change Scriptural? The US Cardinal Gibbons in Faith of Our Fathers, 92nd ed., p. 89, says, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." During the many centuries of the Dark Middle Ages the ordinary people had no access to the Scriptures. When it eventually became available to them, because of the Reformation and the invention of the printing press, the supreme authority of the Scriptures was contested. Finally, after debating this issue for many years, the Archbishop of Reggio at the Council of Trent in 1562 set all hesitation aside by openly declaring that tradition stood above Scripture! His words were, "The authority of the Church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed . . . the Sabbath into Sunday, not by the command of Christ, but by its own authority." Canon and Tradition, p. 263. Similar confessions as to the unscriptural origin of this change are to be found in theological works of all the major denominations
How then did this change come about? All books of history tell the same story: Sun-worship became popular and the Sun-deity was assimilated to all the known deities. All the deities of the nations were identified with the Sun-deity. When Christianity came to Rome a struggle between Sun-worship and Christianity ensued, for by then the Sun-deity had taken over from the older pantheon of Rome.
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 8:46:08 PM Close
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This struggle eventually ended when Constantine fused Christianity and Sun- worship. Even before Constantine fused these two religions, Christianity had already been joined by unconverted pagans and the half-Christian Gnostic sects were thriving. These Gnostic sects were, in a variety of forms, an admixture of Christianity, Neoplatonic philosophy, Sun-worship and the worship of some of the older idols. The difference between them and Christianity (which by now consisted mostly of Gentiles), was at times difficult to determine. Clement, Origen, Cyprian, Jerome, Tertullian, Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, were all guilty of justifying certain Sun-worship practices. Also, Ignatius, Justin, Chrysostom and Barnabas all had a major share in promoting anti-Judaism, which made the rejection of the "Jewish Sabbath" an almost natural consequence. At the beginning of the 4th century the conditions were more than ripe for the fusion to take place. Firstly, in the year 313, Constantine, together with Licinius, held a conference at Milan where they concluded a friendly alliance and adopted a policy of universal religious freedom. Some have called these documents the "Edict of Milan". This ended the long-standing persecution of the Christians, giving them the freedom to observe their own form of worship, unrestricted. This promoted a thankful attitude and an affinity towards Constantine, and likewise, he too was beginning to show some partiality towards the Christians. Subsequently he extended further rights and concessions towards them. The next great step further, the decisive breakthrough for Sun-worship, was the famous Edict of Constantine in the year 321.

Let us first consider what influence Sun-worship had amongst Constantine's predecessors, the emperors before him. Elagabalus, Nero, Diocletian and Aurelian were each involved in Sun-worship, especially Elagabalus and Aurelian. Likewise, Constantine's family had been Sun-deity worshippers, and so was Constantine himself.
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 8:55:49 PM Close
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Constantine called the Sun- deity: "Unconquered Sun, my companion". His edict in the year 321 legislated the "venerable day of the Sun" to be a rest day. This rest was commanded in honour of the Sun, and not in honour of Messiah. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible emphasizes the motive of Constantine for legislating the Sunday as a day of rest, and stresses "the general importance of the Sun-god in the Empire. Indeed, this god was the titulary divinity of Constantine's family, and from the fourth century there is an increasing assimilation of Christ to the Sun-god (as Sun of Righteousness), the Christos Helios (cf. Eusebius Life of Constantine 1.4.18; and the notable mosaic of Christos Helios recently uncovered in the tomb of the Julii under the Vatican)." But this theme of "Christ-the-True- Sun" had already been diffusely proclaimed by Clement of Alexandria (ca. 150-215) in many of his writings. Origen followed in the footsteps of Clement, his teacher, and proclaimed our Saviour to be "the Sun", "the True Sun". Cyprian also called our Saviour "the True Sun''. Because of this, Bishop Zeno of Verona elaborated at great length on Christ-the-Sun as the True Sun, as the Eternal Sun. Some might say that Helios also means the sun as the physical sun. But, all encyclopaedias affirm that, in religion, Helios means the Sun-deity.
This assimilation of our Saviour to the Sun-deity was not difficult, for the pagans of the Roman Empire were steeped in Sun-worship and they referred to their Sun deity as their "Lord" (Kurios). Helios, the Sun-deity, was called "the Lord (Kurios) of the heaven and the earth." Indeed, certain historians have felt that Sun-worship has really given Sunday the name "Lord's day". A. Paiva writes, "The first day of each week, Sunday, was consecrated to Mithra since times remote, as several authors affirm. Because the Sun was god, the Lord par excellence, Sunday came to be called the Lord's day, as later was done by Christianity."
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:02:23 PM Close
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Our Saviour was called "Lord" (Kurios) and the Sun-deity was also called "Lord" (Kurios), the "Lord par excellence". So, the name-titles being easy to unite, it made it easier to identify our Saviour's "day" with the day of the Sun-deity! Thus, civically the "venerable day of the Sun" was legislated to be the rest-day. It now only remained for the Church to fall in line with the civil law of Constantine, who, although being a Sun-worshipper, had already showed some affinity towards Christians, especially by ending their persecution. This change-over to Sunday by the Church happened in the year 364 at the Council of Laodicea, Canon 29: "Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day honouring rather the Lord's day by resting, if possible, as Christians. However, if any shall be found Judaizing, let them be shut out from Christ."

Bishop Eusebius (270-338 C.E.), who worked with Constantine, admits the Church's decision to change from Sabbath to Sunday, "All things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's day." (Eusebius, Commentary on the Psalms, quoted by Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse, vol. II, 9.40.) The Church had succumbed, the fusion was virtually accomplished. The Unconquered Sun, the Sun deity, was proving the merit of its name - it was invincible !
With the accession of the Severan dynasty, Sun-worship had become dominant in Rome. The Sun as deity was a superb symbol and rallying-point for the Empire. "The Unconquered Sun had taken over the role of Jupiter, the Great Sky-god, as protector of Rome and of the Empire."
Macrobius declared to be the one supreme god concealed behind the innumerable lesser deities of the Graeco-Roman pantheon. Even the Christians could not long hold out against the flood, and the marks of the compromise compromise to which the Catholic Church came in the matter may perhaps, be seen in the coincidence of the Lord's Day with Sunday

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:13:12 PM Close
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“.. It is certainly by no accident that the emperors whose reigns immediately preceded the establishment of Christianity all turned towards the worship of the Sun-god who was looked upon as the peculiar divinity of the family to which Constantine belonged." The scholarly and honest Roman Catholic theologian, Dr. F.J. Dolger, wrote, "In his Sunday-law (edict), Constantine probably instituted the meaning of the familiar usage 'Sunday' without far-reaching intent; the expression could be used without causing offence among the pagans of his portion of the Empire. Other pagan cult groups of that time also likened their supreme deity to the Sun-god or completely equated it to the Sun-god. Attis was a Light-deity, Osiris too was Sun-god. Baal Hammon of Carthage was Sun-Baal, Jupiter Anxur of Terracina and Jupiter of Doliche and Heliopolis were all Sun-god, and the Persian Sun-god Mithras had instituted a missionary campaign as no other religion next to Christianity. For all these religious fellowships the imperial Sunday-law (edict) meant a privilege, they all felt themselves honoured when the Sunday was specially feastly dedicated to their deity, the Sun." The Unconquered Sun, which had conquered all other religions, had finally conquered its last major rival, Christianity, by joining it, by being fused with it.
The Messianic Faith, being united with all the Sun-worshipping cults, was to become one strong body which gradually overrun, assimilated and syncretised all remaining obstacles, either by force, or by "assimilation and compromise". The many half-Christian and mostly Sun-worshipping Gnostic sects, heavily leaning towards allegorisation and Neoplatonism, had already influenced or infiltrated the Christianity of Alexandria and of Rome. Clement of Alexandria and Origen had already been quoting freely from the books of the Gnostics Valentinus and Heracleon. Irenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus later on also did likewise with the writings of Valentinus and Ptolemy.
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:18:28 PM Close
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Already in the year 124 emperor Hadrian wrote from Alexandria (on his visit there) the following, in a letter, "Those who worship Serapis are Christians and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are vowed to Serapis." (Serapis being the Sun deity of Alexandria). The intermingling between Christianity and Gnosticism is typified by the Christian leader Clement's repeated praise of the "true Gnostic", meaning thereby the perfect Christian! Speaking of the Gnostics, Legge states, "Most of them, sooner or later abandoned their Gnosticism, and became practising members of the Catholic Church, who sometimes went a long way to meet them.” As Renan has said, none of them ever relapsed into paganism, and in this way the so-called heresies became at once the feeders of orthodox Christianity and its richest recruiting ground. They offered in fact an easy road by which the wealthy, the learned, and the high-placed could pass from paganism to Christianity without suffering the inconvenience imposed upon the first followers of the Apostles ... The Gnostics brought with them into their new faith, the use of pictures and statues . . . and of all the paraphernalia of the worship of heathen gods."And in a footnote, Legge states, "Clement of Alexandria seems to have been initiated into most of the heathen mysteries then current . . . Origen too, . . . professes to know all about the Ophites' [a Gnostic sect] secret opinions." Eusebius, who later wrote, was so upset about these Gnostics being absorbed into Christianity, that he raised his voice in the following words, "savage beasts crept secretly into the Church." Legge comments on Eusebius' statement and adds, "and continued to disseminate their doctrines by stealth.'' Some well-known Church Fathers who came from Gnosticism were: Epiphanius who had been a Nicolaitan, Ambrose of Milan who had been a Valentinian, and Augustine who had been a Manichean for 9 years before joining the Catholic Church.
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:20:49 PM Close
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All these Gnostic sects were distinguished by their rejection of the Old Testament Law, some of them even rejecting the Mighty One of the Old Testament, and some of them even equated the Mighty One of the Old Testament with the Evil One! In their rejection of the Old Testament Law, the Valentinian Gnostics even rejected all moral laws, leading to scandalous living. This Valentinianism acted as a half-way house for two hundred years between heathenism and Christianity. The Marcionites were later on refuted, but they also contributed toward the aversion to, and even rejection of, the Old Testament. Sun- worshipping Mithraism, who advanced Babylonian (Chaldean) astrology with the Sun at the centre of it, played a major role in the resultant fusion between Sun-worship and the Messianic Faith. Manes and his followers, the Manicheans, from among whom Augustine came, "looked on Judaism with horror, rejected the Old Testament entirely, and [Manicheism] was not improbably born in an outbreak of anti-Semitic fury." The Manicheans (who were half Christians) kept Sunday in honour of the Sun, and not in honour of the Resurrection day.

However, the Council of Laodicea's directive in the year 336 (or 364), that Christians are not to Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, was apparently only obeyed in Rome and in Alexandria, the two centres where Christianity was infiltrated by, and mixed with pagan religions. Two contemporary historians, namely Sozomen in the year 440 and Socrates in the year 439, both recorded this remarkable situation. Socrates wrote, "although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this." Sozomen confirms this, "the people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week," such a "custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:30:44 PM Close
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But gradually the influence and power of the Roman Church grew, supported by political and civil authorities with their power. Sabbath-keeping dwindled until there was hardly a remnant left, scattered and persecuted.
So, the first contributory factor for the adoption of Sunday instead of the Sabbath, was the assimilation of our Saviour to the Sun, even the Sun as deity, Him being made into Christ Helios, Christ the True Sun, Christ the Eternal Sun. The second contributory factor was the general importance and popularity of Sun-worship that had become deeply rooted in Alexandria and in Rome. The third contributory factor was the strong anti-Judaism that prevailed, as has been mentioned already. The fourth contributory factor was the Eastward orientated prayers and worship. We need to study its origin, particularly in order to realise the seriousness of the revelation and warning given to Israel, through Ezekiel, in Eze. 8:9-16, God calling this a "wicked abomination". In verse 16 we read of the men "worshipping the Sun towards the East." Israel was commanded to shun such an abominable practice by rather praying towards Jerusalem. In the Law, Israel was sternly warned against Sun-worship, Deut. 4:19, as we have already seen. The Roman Christians, whose ranks were flooded with half-converted believers coming from pagan worship, especially Sun-worship in its various forms, simply continued the practice of worshipping the Sun towards the East, or praying to the Sun in the East. This Eastward orientated Sun-worship had come from Apollo worship, the Greeks, the Syrians, the Persian religions, from India, Babylon, Assyria, Ethiopia, Arabia, Egypt, the Phoenicians, and Thrace. Other contemporary and preceding cults practising Sun-worship were the Pythagoreans, the Therapists and the Magi. Prayer and worship towards the East was also practised by Socrates, and later by the Neoplatonists too.
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:38:36 PM Close
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Origen not only called our Saviour "the True Sun", but both Clement and Origen attempted to justify Eastward orientated prayer and worship. Clement tried to justify this by allegorising Ps. 132:7, 2 Cor. 4:6, and Matt. 4:16 (Isa. 9:2). Origen. his scholar, continued this allegorisation of Scripture to justify Sun-worship, and quoted Zech. 6:12 from the Greek Septuagint, where the Hebrew "branch" had been badly mistranslated as anatole (rising, east or day spring). The other text that was used in an attempt to justify the identifying of our Saviour with the Sun, was the well- known Mal. 4:2. We also read of Origen's Commentary on John, wherein he equates Messiah's resurrection with the rising Sun in the East. They also twisted Matt. 24:27 in an attempt to prove the Messiah's Second Coming to be from the East. They did the same with Mal. 1:11.
Justin also encouraged prayer towards the East, quoting the Greek Septuagint's incorrect rendering of Ps. 68:34. As an expression of our longing for Paradise, they also tried to justify prayer towards the East because of the garden that was "planted eastward in Eden" (Gen. 2:8). Although Justin, Gregory of Nyssa, Athanasius and Augustine rejected the heathen belief that the Almighty lived in the Eastern heavens, heathen converts must have been responsible for this continued belief. In the Orient this prayer towards the East was a counter-measure against Judaism. This prayer towards the East was very much alive in the Roman religion in the 6th and 7th centuries and continued right up to the year 1300. F.J. Dolger summarises the outcome of it all, as follows, "The Gentile Christians, with the Eastward orientated prayers, simply retained an inborn custom of their heathen past. They filled this custom with new contents, being freed from heathenism through it and at the same time being made a sign of distinction between Judaism and Christianity." Ambrosius admitted that this was adopted "from the custom of the Brahmans – in India".
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:40:39 PM Close
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With this deeply rooted and generally prevailing Sun worship as background, it was easy to accept the resemblance between the day of our Saviour's resurrection and the day of the Sun, i.e. Sunday. Clement, Justin, Ignatius, Jerome and others following, put emphasis on the day of the resurrection, thereby attempting to identify the Messiah with "the True Sun", the One who has been behind it all along! In fact, Firmicus identified our Saviour with the Sun-deity in his writings in the year 343, and Garruci painted our Messiah with sun-rays around His head, thereby clearly identifying our Saviour with the Sun-deity, now being called "Christ Helios", "Sun of Resurrection", "the True Sun". Clement of Alexandria wrote, quoting Menander, "Sun, one must venerate you as the first of the gods; through you we are capable of looking at the other gods." The solarisation became even worse. In the 5th century, the Messiah was not only called "the True Sun", but also "the true Apollo", the age-old Sun-deity of the Greeks! Other paintings and pictures followed, as well as statues and images of our Messiah with sun-rays or a nimbus (sun- disc) about His head. There are a great number of these illustrations to be found in ecclesiastical books.
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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2008 9:43:15 PM Close
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To summarise: Because of their inborn heathen custom of Sun-worship, and because of anti-Judaism, the Gentiles who became Christians in a nominal way, were easily persuaded to accept "the True Sun", "the Sun of Righteousness", "Christ Helios", "the True Apollo". Emperor Constantine was the one who put an end to the enmity between frank Sun- worship and the Messianic Faith. For many years it remained quite obvious that frank Sun- worship was being adapted to Christianity. The remarks, and concern, by Tertullian, Pope Leo the Great, Eusebius, and also by Cyrill of Jerusalem, testify to this. Cyrill contended against this in 348 C.E., "Let the heresy be silenced which blasphemes the Messiah, the Son of the Mighty One. Let those be silenced who say that the Sun is Messiah, because He is the Creator of the Sun, and not the visible Sun itself." Augustine, who himself had previously been a scholar of the Manichean Gnostic Sect (known for worshipping the Sun all day long as it passed through the sky), also compromised, but cautioned against the frank Sun-worship of the Manicheans and warned, "Eventually we shall yet be taken to be Persians"- the latter being known for their Sun-worship and being the place of origin of the Manichean-cult. The Unconquered Sun, Sol Invictus, Sol Helios became the conquerer! Paul Schmitt, author of "Sol Invictus" in Eranos Jahrbuch 1943 X, ends his article, "The religious polity of Constantine characterised itself in a striking manner by the establishment of Dies Solis (Sun-day), as a mutual feast-day for the heathen and for the Christians, in the year 321. So the heathen, the Christians and Manicheans of the territory of the empire thus had a mutual feast-day, Sun-day, in the sign of Sol-Helios that excluded them from the Jews."
We simply continue this practice. Absolutely not what God, The Creator, The Redeemer, The Messiah wanted us to do.

What will you do? Follow the pagan I guess - It's what everybody else is doing.

Shalom
Joe

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2008 9:27:48 AM Close
Dear Joe

First and foremost importance of the First Day of the Week (Sunday) is the Glorious Resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This has nothing to do with any paganism.

Mat 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.

Resurrection of Christ Jesus us the basis of our Salvation, it is a great Joy for the true Christians.

Holy Spirit descending to earth as the Comforter was on Sunday, the same day first gathering as New Testament believers started.

It is also called the Lord’s Day

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Earlier Christians gathered on the first day of the week, the day our Lord resurrected which brought victory over the enemy and victory to the believing Christians.

Quote of yours:
“He clearly says that the keeping of His Father's Commandments is a condition for inheriting eternal life!”

Will you please provide scriptural support to prove that eternal life is inherited by keeping his Father’s commandments.

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2008 11:08:03 AM Close
Joe, maybe you can also give due credit where it belongs: to the authors of the article -

http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/sunday.htm

A copy of the write up can also be found at

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48189

Brothers, sisters,

The writer of the orginal article is someone who also denies the diety of our Lord Jesus Christ, that he died on a Cross as we know it and many other scriptural truths. They pervert the scriptures as we have already seen in the above write up. Fortunately these people are already spoken of and warned against:

1 John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

In Christ,

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2008 7:50:28 PM Close
Dear believer.bible

You are right. Most of the matter I copied is from the site you mentioned. However, this is not my PhD thesis and I did not know that you had to give the site and credit when you copied something. For that I apologize and so am very sorry. As to the fact that the writer denies Jesus Christ I have not heard it. Please let me know where you got that from. The material is hosted by an organization called Jews for Jesus. Af far as I know, they are a Christian organization and believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah. As you said Every Spirit that confesseth not Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God and has the spirit of the antichrist. However the Jews for Jesus movement does believe in Christ as the Messiah and Saviour. The fact that they still call Jesus by His Jewish name does not matter. In Malayalam we may say something that does not have the same name in English, it does not mean that the meaning is the same.

The point is can you refute any of the material they have provided, that I copied. They have simply stated what the history of Sun worship is and how it is related to Sunday worship before the time of Christ and how this crept into Christianity. Please point out the errors they have made. Otherwise they are correct in their statements. As christians the question is do we follow the command of God and His Word or do we follow what other people tell us. What about Satan's influence in all this?

My advise is that the Jesus we know is also the Creator, He is the one who gave the Law, He is also the one who said that if we loved Him, we were to keep His commandments. We cannot change any of that, Changing His commandments is to Deny Him.

Please advise after reading their material and checking out what the facts really are?

Regards,
Joe

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2008 8:14:51 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

The fact that Christ resurrected on Sunday cannot be the basis for us changing one of His commandments. As I stated in the previous post, Christ is the Creator of the World, He made the Sabbath, He said that if we loved Him we had to keep His commandments, (John 14:15).
Read Matt. 5:17-20
Matt. 15:6-9, Mark 7:7
Matt. 19-17 "..but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".
John 14:21, John 15:10
1 Cor.7:19
1 John 2:3,4 and 1 John 3:24
1 John 5:2,3
2 John 1:6
Finally we know that the devil will fight those who keep the commandments of God (Rev. 12:17) and the saved are those that keep the commandments of God (Rev.14:12) and Rev. 22:14 where it says "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Sunday worship was never commanded by God and those that follow the commandments of men are those that keep Sunday as God's day of worship.
(From the posts copied above). God only blessed and hallowed the 7th day as Sabbath and commanded people to worship Him on that specific day. It is part and parcel of His commandments. In Isaiah we read that in the new world, or world made new we will continue worshipping God from Sabbath to Sabbath.(Isaiah 66:22,23).

Finally, please check out this website to see what most churches say about the change from Sabbath to Sunday: http://www.sabbathrest.net/religious/catholic.html
http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/catholic-protestant-confessions-about-bible-sabbath.html

After reading the above texts and the websites I have copied above, please give me your informed opinion.

Shalom,
Joe


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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 May 2008 2:47:48 AM Close
Dear Joe

Many Brethrens and myself made solid posting with the support of the Word of God the importance of the First Day of the Week (Sunday). For us as well as millions of true Christians around the world has more importance for this day which is the day Our Lord Jesus Christ Rose, it is the joyous day for us and we gather together to worship Him as the Resurrection of our Lord brought us the salvation.

I do not think we need any teaching from you or from the people who reject the deity of Christ regarding the Sabbath.

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 6 May 2008 8:59:55 AM Close
Dear Joe,

With respect to all the allegations in the site you refer, are you saying that the apostles gathering on the first day of the week to remember our Lord were influenced by early sun worship and the other allegations in the text you have copied?

Are you saying that Jesus Christ resurrecting from the dead on the first day of the week is related to sun worship and the other allegations in the text you have copied?

Please scroll down check the other links to the site I had pointed out. It contains so much of heritical teaching - denial of the Lord's deity, misinterpretation of the crucifiction, deniel of "Christ", "Jesus", the Church and even denial of the Bible and so much more. There is so much of false doctrines propogated by this site that I would call this a cultic group. The text you have copied is influenced so much by deception, misinterpretation of scripture and inclusion of pagan practices along with scriptural practices of the early church.

Either you have accepted all these teachings or you have been ignorant of it.

With such cases of outright deniel and rejection of scriptures that stem not from sincere search for truth but intended towards deception, I would rather heed the advice of scripture.

Romans 16:17

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and AVOID THEM.

2 Timothy 3:5

Having a FORM OF GODLINESS, but DENYING THE POWER THEROF: from such TURN AWAY.

Dear Joe, I would advice that we avoid being sloppy at these things and carefully search the scriptures rightly dividing the word of truth.

In Christ

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Reply by : gys   View Profile   Since : 10 May 2008 4:47:46 AM Close


Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 13 May 2008 8:25:49 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

Since we are discussing the Bible and since I have not read your previous posts, please post your Bible references and deductions regarding the importance of Sunday also showing where you read that Worship was transferred from the seventh day to the first day.

I am sure that many readers would like to have those references and can check out for themselves.

Evidently you have not checked the verses I referred to on May 3. Please read the verses I have provided you and give me a response to your thoughts on them.

I am still of the opinion that this forum is one where we discuss the Bible as the Word of God.

Regards,
Joe

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 13 May 2008 8:49:06 AM Close
Dear believer.bible

Do not take somebody's word for the Word of God. It does not matter who quotes the Word of God. The Bible always stands on its own. Therefore, even if a pagan quotes from the Bible, the quote is still the word of God, no matter who quoted it. Satan also knows the word of God better than any human being. Sometimes Satan will use human forces to misquote the Word of God and try to show that God meant this or that. The point is that we check what is quoted and then see if it is right or wrong.

In Isaiah chapter 28 we read about God admonishing the Ephraimites for not following the Word of God and thus they became captives to the Assyrians and the 10 tribes of Israel eventually lost its identity. The same admonishment comes to us, to study the word of God, line upon line, and precept upon precept. Else we will have a fate worse than the Ephraimites.

To answer your question about the day of the resurrection, no it has nothing to do with Sun worship. However, the change from sabbath to sunday has everything to do with sun worship. Please do not confuse everything that refers to Sunday with Sun worship. It is only the day of worship not the mode or kind. You can read the Bible from one end to the other, but will not find a single command from either God or his Disciples suggesting that the day of worship was changed from the seventh day to the first day. However, you can find hundreds of references to the command to worship on the seventh day. In addition there were additional commands for the jews to keep some other ceremonial days that they called sabbaths. Those do not apply to us because they are part of the ceremonial laws. However, the moral law is what is found in the 10 commandments, condensed into two (love for God found in the 1st 4 and love for man found in the next 6).

Let's study the word of God more to reveal His will and love for us. Jesus said very clearly that if we loved him we would keep His commandments.

Regards,
Joe

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 May 2008 8:55:24 AM Close
Dear 'sloppyjoe50,'

You wrote, "please post your Bible references and deductions regarding the importance of Sunday also showing where you read that Worship was transferred from the seventh day to the first day.

I am sure that many readers would like to have those references and can check out for themselves."

In the light of your posting, will you please post the command, with references from the Word of God, that the worship is to be done on Saturday only? It will be interesting for the readers.

I asked this question to Sonny Varghese, more than once, but failed to receive a reply.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2008 11:19:11 PM Close
Dear George P Koshy,

I see several references to the Sabbath Commandment above. However, I shall give you my take on this.

First we see that the Sabbath was created at Creation and God blessed that day. We read this in Genesis 2:2-3. He gave us the commandments at creation. There is no Bible reference to this. However, we can infer, based on events from Creation to Moses that the commandments were in existence.

Secondly, we see the written command in the 4th commandment, found in Exodus 20:8-12. Although we see the written law here first, its prior existence cannot be denied. Exodus 16 has an example of Sabbath keeping prior to the Children of Israel getting to Sinai. In verse 28 of Exodus 16 we read "And Jehovah said to Moses, How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My Laws?" What Law is God talking about since the written law was given only at a later time. Similarly we can deduce that the commandments were in existence from creation because when Cain killed Abel he was cursed by God. Also if there was no law after creation how could God judge the people at Noah's time and how could the people of Sodom and Gomorrah be judged wicked. By what standard were they judged?

Now the 4th commandment requires you to keep the Sabbath Day Holy. However, your question is whether the Word of God states that worship is to be on Saturday only. To answer your question specifically the answer is that - Worship has to be every day. As often as you can, not just morning and evening, but continually. Not like the Muslim worshiping 5 times a day or even 50 times a day but continually through your actions, deeds, thoughts and prayers.

But regarding keeping a day holy (separated from others for only worshiping God - and not doing any other physical work for remuneration - a day for corporate worship like in a church) is Saturday only and not Sunday.

Finally in Isaiah 66 vs.23 we read that the Sabbath will be kept in the new earth. So there will be Sabbath worship in the future also.

contd.-2

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2008 11:44:02 PM Close
contd 2 George P Koshy,

The 4th commandment follows the same train of thought we see in Genesis 2:2-3. The Message translates verse 3 as "He made it a Holy day". We keep the sabbath holy because God asked us to, because He hallowed it and blessed it. The Sabbath command is the only commandment in the observance of which God could join man. Man can keep it; God can keep it. Thus the Sabbath is the meeting place of God and man. It is one law that allows us to commune and have fellowship with God. The sabbath was the first object God made Holy in creation. Man's history with God begins on the Sabbath.

The example of the Savior is important here. He ended His work at creation and rested on the Sabbath. He ended His work of redemption and rested again on the Sabbath. Nowhere in the Bible has He abrogated the 4th commandment.

Now about the reason most Christians worship on Sunday. Anyone who has studied early Christianity can tell you that it is the Catholic Church by its authority that changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

See quote from Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodecia (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” (2nd edition, 1910, p 50)

Also from Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.

Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her - she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural
authority.

more Catholic quotations:
contd - 3

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 12:08:07 AM Close
Dear George Koshy
contd.3 More Catholic Quotations:

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers: “You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we [Rome] never sanctify.” (http://www.openlibrary.org/details/ thefaithofourfat00gibbuoft) (11th ed, p 111)

John A. O’Brien from The Faith of Millions: “But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away—like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.” (pp 400-401)

Canon 29 of the Council of Laodecia (AD 363-364) outlawed the keeping of the Saturday Sabbath and solemnified Sunday as the Christian Sabbath - by the power of the Church council. Prior this Constantine in AD 321 passed his first Sunday Law. However, that law begins with the sentence: "On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed." Of course, prior to this Gnostics had already from the time of the disciples advocated keeping the 8th day holy. (2 Thes.2:7 - the mystery of lawlessness).

Those who still keep Sunday instead of Saturday holy, are just following the Catholic Church and not the Bible. Else, show from the Bible where the 4th commandment was abrogated or transferred to the 1st day.

Christian Regards,
Joe

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Reply by : fellowchristian   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 5:11:38 AM Close
Dear brethren,
Sharp disputes and heated debates might be necessary, but in the end, Lord’s servants are to teach the truth so that Church should shine for His Glory.

Will somebody tell me if Lord de-established observance of Sabbath, in proclaiming that He is Lord to Sabbath also.
If we have to observe Sabbath, how do we find reason to observe it on Sunday?

In scripture we read of apostle John was in spirit on Lord’s Day.
I would like to read somebody explaining if it was a Sunday or a Saturday.( with scriptural evidence)

Anyhow we find that early Church opted to gather together on Sundays ( first day of the week) and it is absurd to think that they opted to do so, in accordance to a pagan sun-worship of the gentile world.

In 1 Corinthians16:2 we read:
“On the first day of EVERY week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made”
We might infer that they used to come together every Sunday in the name of Lord.

I have read somewhere that the early Church might have observed Sabbath in the day time and opted to gather together after the day time of Sabbath, in the evening hours to break bread ( as seen in Acts 20:7). Isn’t the evening hours after Sabbath day, their first day of the week?
In Acts 20, we read that the meeting went past midnight. So we have ample reason to think that they came together to break bread in an evening time, and if so, was it not on Saturday evening (Saturday in our contest)?.
For them a gathering after 6 pm on Sunday is not counted as a gathering on first day of the week.!
Let us pray Lord our God to give light that we may walk in the light of the Lord only.

In Christian love,
“Fellowchristian”

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 8:16:04 AM Close
Dear Fellowchristian,

Sharp debates and heated debates are not necessary when studying the word of God. We must have a humble heart and a willingness to be lead by the Holy Spirit. Let me try to answer your questions with references from the Bible.
First, Regarding Rev. 1:10, when John was in the Spirit or in a Vision from God on the Lords Day. Biblically speaking: Mark 2:28 & Matthew 12:8 we read that the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. John being one of the closest to Christ and also the youngest had a close affinity to Christ. It was not until a 100 years after John wrote the book of Revelation that the term Lords Day started being used for Sunday. However this term is used only once in the New Testament. If it were a term for Sunday, John would definitely use the phrase First Day as used elsewhere in the New Testament writings.

The assumption that the early church opted to worship on the first day of the week is not true. Many of the early churches started by the disciples, example, in India, Ethiopia, Constantinople, Armenia, we find that the churches continued worship on Saturday until they came under Catholic Persecution. In kerala they were called the Nazrani Christians. Check the history and meaning of the word and you will find that they worshiped on the Saturday Sabbath for more than 1500 years.

In 1 Cor 16:2 we read "On the first day of the week...." Paul wanted to help the Corinthians learn fiscal responsibility with God's money. By individually (note the "each") setting their offerings aside at the beginning of the week, they would be less prone to spend it during the week. Otherwise, come the next Sabbath, there might not be anything left for God's offering. Additionally, I recently learned that the early Christian church did not practice the collection of tithes and offerings at their church services on the Sabbath day. These were collected at special times such as the visit mentioned by Paul above.

contd. 2

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 8:41:14 AM Close
contd.-2 response to Fellowchristian:

In Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." Some translations use the term "Saturday evening" instead of the first day of the week in the above verse. It appeared that the disciples were having a going away "Agape" feast. Paul was going to travel during the daylight hours of the first day of the week (or the next day, Monday). The disciples evidently broke bread daily not just the first day of the week. Having a speech given on any day does not mean that the commandment requiring a specific day of worship was abrogated or transferred.

Finally we ought to consider a host of evidence in Acts where the Bible clearly states that they disciples and Paul in particular worshiped on the Sabbath. These verses are very specific.
Acts 13:14
Acts 13:42
Acts 15:21
Acts 16:13
Acts 17:2
Acts 18:4

Further please read my post to bro. Sambudhanoor on May 3, above, which shows that keeping of the commandments is important for all Christians. We thus have a host of specific evidence from the Bible affirming that the sabbath commandment should be kept.

Its basically a question of who you would listen to. Its either following the Word of God or following tradition and councils of other churches , which is of human origin. I would urge you to study the word of God prayerfully and ask God to guide you and not what others interpretations. Ask God what He would want you to do and ask Him to show it to you - in whatever way He chooses, so that you are fully convinced that it is His word and His desire that you follow. The world will mislead you but God never will.

I guess I have answered your questions to the best of my ability.

Christian regards,
Joe

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 8:48:11 AM Close
Dear Fellowchristian,

Please forgive me for the typographical errors I made. I just noticed from above:

"Finally we ought to consider a host of evidence in Acts where the Bible clearly states that they disciples and Paul in particular worshiped on the Sabbath. These verses are very specific."

Should read "Finally we ought to consider a host of evidence in Acts where the Bible clearly states that the disciples and Paul in particular worshiped on the Sabbath. These verses are very specific."

If you are interested in knowing more about the History of the Church of Kerala, I can provide you additional material that shows that the church worshiped on Saturday and only false allegations and persecutions changed this.

Christian regards,
Joe

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 12:37:30 PM Close
Dear 'sloppyjoe50,'

On 3 May 2008, you wrote, **God only blessed and hallowed the 7th day as Sabbath and commanded people to worship Him on that specific day. It is part and parcel of His commandments.** --- Your reply does not give any scriptural refernce about the command to worship God on Sabbath. You indicated that you expect others to answer from the Bible. I am asking the same from you. I did not ask about the Catholic Church or what it said in the 20th century. Please provide the reference from the Bible that Saturday is the day of worship, as commanded by God. I did not see this reference from the Bible, that you required of others, in your reply. Please provide.

You wrote, **Finally in Isaiah 66 vs.23 we read that the Sabbath will be kept in the new earth. So there will be Sabbath worship in the future also.** Could you explain how this is the new earth that is in Isaiah 66:23? I failed to see. I need more explanation, from you.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 6:59:45 PM Close
Dear readers,

I do apologize for having started this thread and the being absent for almost a month. Particularly to Dr Koshy for not replying to your question posed more than a month ago.

However, I have some remarks I would like to make here. I see that there is some discussion on this topic but I see a lot of personal criticism and attacks that are unbecoming of even nominal christians. As Christians we should have the spirit of Christ, being humble and meek and having a love for others, even if they be our enemies. I see this in many of the other threads in this forum. I wish we could all behave as good Christians. There may even be non christians reading each of the threads, being brought to this site to know something about christianity.

What kind of an image do we project to others, particularly non-christians. We may be the only chance they will get to know Jesus. What opinions will they form of Christians when they see the kind of behaviour we project here. This kind of behaviour is not only isolated on our website but also on other christian discussion sites. I wonder how many we have chased away from Christ by our behaviour.

I apologize once again for my absence, and also for the behavior of my fellow believers in Christ on this thread and other similar threads.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 8:00:58 PM Close
Dear Dr. Koshy,

On April 3 you asked me the question: "Where do we read in the Bible that the Jews met on the Sabbath to worship? In your writings, it is clear that that is your argument against Sunday. The next question is, where do we read about Sunday in the Bible?"

I thought I had answered this on April 4. I quoted Exodus 8:8-12 and also stated the other ceremonial sabbaths the Jews had. I stated also that there were more than 50 references to the Sabbath (as stated in the 4th commandment) in the Old Testament and 50 in the New Testament. I have not provided these quotes. But if you look at any electronic bible and search for the word Sabbath you should get them.

Later on April 16 you stated: "The Bible differs with all the historians, like Michael Geddes. The Bible tells us that the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first-day of the week. We read this in the book that deals with the history of the Assembly. But we would like to give credibility to man's words, rather than God's word. A shameful situation!"

I coudn't agree with you more, and would like to give some additional comments on this. Please correct me if I am wrong. Historians write from their perspective on history. We cannot compare it with the Bible. The reason I mentioned Michael Geddes was because his book is the first book in English regarding the History of the Church of Malabar (Kerala). Logan, Mingana, Gundert, and others works come much later. His was also the first to describe the Acts and Decrees of the Synod of Diamper/Udhayampoor.

We all agree that Bible is the word of God and the authority against which our beliefs are tested, whether they be true to the Bible or not.
With this in mind let me state the following:

First, God created the world in 6 literal days and completed his work on the seventh day. Genesis 2:2 says that God ended His work on the seventh day which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
-2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 8:39:42 PM Close
- 2 Dr. Koshy,
Gen.2:2 seems to be a contradiction because God ended His work on the 6th day but here it says God ended His work on the 7th day. The reason He ended His work on the seventh day was because by the 6th day He finished His creating the earth and all that in it is, but on the 7th day He made the sabbath. He could do this only on the 7th day and not on the 6th day. And so God made the Sabbath on the Sabbath, and He made it by resting. That ended His work. The Sabbath was the finishing touch. Only when He had made the Sabbath was His work done.

The Hebrew for rest is 'Shabath'. It is from this root word that the word Sabbath comes. It designates a time set apart for rest. This example of rst by God at creation set the requirement of rest that He desires for His people in order that they may live lives pleasing to Him, full of worship and adoration.

Gen. 2:3 He blessed 'barak' the seventh day and sanctified 'qadas' it. The verb 'barak' is used when God is blessing Abraham (Gen 12:3). The verb 'qadas' means to be set apart, to be holy, to be treated as holy, to consecrate, to dedicate, to be made holy. The word is used most often in the intensive stem, meaning to pronounce or to make holy, to consecrate. The Lord pronounced the Sabbath day holy. Had [Genesis 2] merely said that God blessed the Sabbath day, some might think that it referred to any day on which the Sabbath might come, and that if the first day of the week should be chosen as the Sabbath, the blessing would apply to that day. To forestall any such interpretation, God states that He blessed the seventh day, not the first, or the third, or any other day, but the seventh day. Hence the seventh day is a blessed day. No man or church can transfer the divine gift day to another day.
But why the divine gift of the seventh day?
It is the most perfect gift that any loving parent can give his or her child — the gift of uninterrupted, unhurried time together.
-3

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2008 9:21:21 PM Close
-3 Dr. Koshy,

In the words of the incarnated Creator himself, “The Sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27 NRSV). For from the very beginning of time the seventh day has been a gift day from God to the human race.

Now was a rest necessary for God or did God get tired after 6 days of creation? We read in Isaiah 40:28 “The everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary.” So it was not for God's benefit but for man's benefit. Again from Mark 2:27 Sabbath was made for Man. It was not because man labored and worked hard for 6 days either, that God invites them to take part in this rest. But it was the on first full day of man, after his being created, that God invited man to celebrate it with Him. God met them on their first day of full existence. In Exodus 20:8 the 4th commandment begins with the word Remember, because this is the one commandment that human race has known since the begining of human history.

We see in all of creation history that the first object God made holy was a segment in time. It was the very presence and glory of the God that made the Sabbath holy.

In all of creation account God does not name any of the days not even the Sabbath. The word as I stated earlier came from Jewish usage of the root word for rest. The Jewish calendar till today simply states first day, second day, third day so on till the seventh day which they call Sabbath.
In several European languages till today, the seventh day is known as Sabbath. (French/Portuguese/Spanish) = Sabado, German = samstag (meaning sabbath), Italian = sabato, Russan/Czech/Polish/Croation/Serbian = sobota, Hungarian = szombat. So even in many languages Saturday is still known as Sabbath.

I think this post is getting too long and so I'll stop for here and continue what I wanted to mention later. Please let me know what you think about what is posted above thus far.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 1:04:23 AM Close
Compared to the glory of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, keeping Sabbath is only “weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage”

“But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.” (Galatians 4: 9 - 11)
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:16, 17)
“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.” (Galatians 5:12)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 11:41:16 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

My question to you was to provide a verse that requires or demands that Sabbath Day to be observed as the only day for worship. Instead, I am getting an explanation that Sabbath Day was a holy day.

Did the children of israel worship only on Sabbath Day?

Did the Jews at the time of Christ worship only on Sabbath Day?

Did Christ, the Son, allowed worship on days other than Sabbath Day?

Did the disciples gather together on the first day of the week or on the Sabbath Day?

If the disciples gathered together on the Sabbath, why is it written otherwise in Acts 20:7?

According to you, gathering together to break bread on the first day of the week should be contrary to the command of God. If your assertions from the world is true, why Apostle Paul waited for seven days at Troas, to be with the disciples to break bread on the first day of the week? Apostle Paul waited and rested on the Sabbath Day, but he broke bread with the disciples on the first day of the week. Please explain.

When you are explaining these questions, please do not go into the world searching for justification of your stand. Use only the scriptures to establish scriptural teachings, doctrines. We are not discussing about Roman Catholic teachings, doctrines.

There are six different questions that you have to answer. Please do answer them in a systemic manner, one after the other.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : fellowchristian   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 2:18:56 PM Close
Dear brethren,
I begyour pardon if I am interuupting the debate.
I would like to repeat my earlier question:
" Will somebody tell me if Lord de-established observance of Sabbath, in proclaiming that He is Lord to Sabbath also.
If we have to observe Sabbath, how do we find reason to observe it on Sunday?"

In Christian love,
"Fellowchristian"

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 3:10:22 PM Close
Dear "Fellowchristian,"

What do you mean be "de-establish?" Is that a word used in by the public?

In the Old Testament, we read that any one who worked on the Sabbath was to be stoned to death. It was a day of rest, because God rested on the seventh day from creation.

What did the Lord of the Sabbath do? He justified working on Sabbath, because "My Father worketh hithereto and I work." (John 5:16). The Lord of the Sabbath said this, when he was questioned about working on the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:1-12. Mark 2:23-28, Luke 6:1-9 are good to read. You may be quoting one verse from one of these three portions, at the same time ignoring the verses that precede and foloow. Please read all the related verses.

In John 7:22, He justified the priests working on the Sabbath. Please remember that performing circumcision is not worship.

On Sabbath, the Lord of the Sabbath also healed and the Jews took issues with Him on it. In the life and minsitry of the Lord of the Sabbath, He worked and justified others working.

Since you asked for an answer to your question and I answered it from the Word of God, will you answer my questions that I posted on 11:41:16 AM, today. It was addressed to Sonny Varghese.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 8:03:10 PM Close
Dear Dr. Koshy,

I started yesterday's post to show the history of the sabbath. To better understand a topic we must always start from the beginning. Do you then deny that the Sabbath was not a holy day?

Now to answer your questions.
1. Did the children of Israel worship only on the Sabbath day? It all depends on how you define the sabbath day. I answered this question on April 4, see post above. The children of Israel worshipped every 7th day sabbath and the on the additional ceremonial sabbaths, which may have fallen on other days of the week.

2. Did the Jews of the time of Christ Worship only on Sabbath day? As far as it is recorded in the Bible, Yes, they worshiped only on the sabbath day.

3. Did Christ, the Son, allow worship on other days than the Sabbath? Again as far as recorded in the Bible, No. He emphasised worship on the sabbath, and as was His custom went to worship on every sabbath day. See Luke 4:16 As was his custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath,... See also Mark 6:2, Luke 4:31-32; Luke 13:10

4. Did the disciples gather together on the first day of the week or on the Sabbath Day? As far as recorded, they worshipped every Sabbath day. Read Acts 17:2 "And according to Paul's custom, He went to them, and for 3 Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures. Also see Acts 13:14; Acts 13:42,44; Acts 16:13; Acts 18:4; However, they gathered every day for teaching, preaching and studying the word of God also for fellowship with one another. Acts 2:46,47; Acts 5:42; Acts 16:5; Acts 17:11,17

5. Acts 20:7 is talking about a farewell meeting for Paul. Many Bibles title that text as Paul's Farewell Visit to Troas. The reference to breaking bread simply means that they sat down for a meal. (See Luke 24:30,35; Acts 2:46; Acts 27:35). Several Bible translations call this a Saturday night meeting, however, that is immaterial. See New English Bible, JB Philips translation, Today's English Version, Jewish New Testament, NT in Modern English.
-2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 8:46:08 PM Close
-2 Acts 20:7 - response to Dr Koshy,

Whether this was a Saturday night or Sunday night is immaterial because even if it were a Saturday night meeting it would have been considered as the First Day of the Week, because the Sabbath ended at sunset on saturday. Paul was leaving the next day for another city and spoke all night. During this period Eutychus fell down after falling asleep and Paul helped him come to life. After this service they again broke bread and talked while eating. Rather than describing this as a religious service on Sunday, this passage actually documents Paul walking 20 miles on foot (from Troas to Assos to meet the others who had gone there on ship see verse 13 & 14) on the first day of the week, hardly making it a day or rest and worship for him.
So this verse does not in any way imply that the Sabbath had changed from the seventh-day to the first day, especially considering that the book of Acts specifically states that they worshipped on Saturdays.

6. I have not mentioned anywhere that gathering together to break bread on the first day or any day is contrary to the command of God. If I have mistakenly said it somewhere please show it and I will correct it. However, if I have not stated thus, why am I being accused of something I have not stated?
Verse 6 of Acts 20 says that Paul stayed at Troas for seven days, but does not elaborate what he did there or why. However, based on the life of Paul we can assume that throughout the week he was visiting and encouraging believers, breaking bread with them daily. This of itself does not change prior teachings.

Finally, can you explain why in the book of Acts it is stated specifically that Paul worshipped on the Sabbath? See Acts 13:14; Acts 13:42&44, Acts 16:13; Acts 17:2 and Acts 18:4 and any other ones I forgot to mention above.

Keep in mind that the Bible does not contradict itself. Please quote from the Bible, as far as possible, to back up your answers.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 8:54:54 PM Close
Hello Everyone

Let us not complicate the issue, read the simple and clear teaching of Jesus in the following texts – IF YOU WANT TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE KEEP THE 10 COMMANDMENTS which includes the SABBATH commandment:

Matthew 28:19-20 (King James Version)
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 19:16-18 (King James Version)
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

If your understanding of any other passage is contrary to this plain teaching, it is because you are reading out of context or not have understood that portion of the scripture. Don’t be misguided by the statement ‘ye are not under the law, but under grace’. Why does one need GRACE if the LAW has been abolished?

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2008 9:26:03 PM Close
(2)

If we have to strictly honor Sunday as the day of worship and worship God by considering breaking of bread as the ‘WORSHIP’, the early morning when Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulcher, it was the RESURRECTION DAY not the crucifixion day.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 22 May 2008 12:47:48 PM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

Did God make the first day holy? No, not stated anywhere in the Bible. Did God ask us to keep the first day holy? Not anywhere in the Bible either.
He made the seventh day holy. (Gen.2:2,3 and Exodus 20:8-12) He asked us to keep this day holy.

The arguments used by Gnostics, the first to worship on Sunday, were the same. It was about light, about creation of light and Jesus being the light of the world, and the 8th day cycle.

Although the calendar changed a few times in history the week days never changed. We have the 7 day cycle going in the same order since creation. Look up the calendar change in history ans see if the days change. Although if the date changes but not the day (of the week), it is immaterial. Also the Jews have been keeping exact track of time since the time of Abraham.

If you have to keep Jesus example then you have to keep the 4th commandment, that He gave us, the way He kept it, even by/in His death. He rested on the Sabbath, Mary Magdelene and the other Mary kept it, the disciples kept it. God commanded it at creation, at Sinai, during His life on earth, through His disciples, and in John's vision written in the book of Revelation.

Of course, keeping the commandments, is an individual choice. If we love God we keep His commandments, and they are not grevious. But breaking one is equal to breaking all. We are not saved by the keeping of the commandment, but by grace, and because we have His grace we keep it.

The Catholic Church says that they changed the commandment, because of the power inherent within the church. They state that they did not do this because of anything wrtten in the Bible, because it is not of the Bible. They state that those who keep Sunday instead of Saturday keep it in recognition of their power to change time, days, and festivals. We do not have much argument about this. Therefore, if we follow the Bible, then we must do what God wanted us to do and keep His Sabbath.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 22 May 2008 4:05:18 PM Close
Dear Sonny,

There is so much material on this thread that I never found time to read it in full. In the meanwhile please calculate the days and show that Saturday is the 'Sabbath'. If you have already written about it, please quote the post and date.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 22 May 2008 7:11:46 PM Close
While editing today's post addressed to Sonny, I have accidentally deleted part-1 post made on 05/21/07. The gist of the post was that according to Scritpures the first day is:

(1)"And the evening and the morning were the first day." (Gen 1:5 KJV). Gregorian calendar, which we are using came in to effect after Christ, (somewhere in 1538), and ten days were dropped from the original calendar.

{2} Jews worshipped on Sabbath. And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof: (Nu 28:8-9 KJV)

(3) If we are to treat the worship as breaking of bread alone, and only as remembrance, three days before the resurrection day, was the crucifixion day; and the day on which Mary Magdelene and othe Mary visited sepulchre was the resurrection day, and..

(4) I worship every day throughout the year and I believe that breaking of bread is one of the ways of God, but it is not the only way.


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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 6:10:45 AM Close
Dear Sonny,

I was thinking seriously as to whether I am honoring 'Sabbath' or not. I really want to observe 'Sabbath' and infact, I think, I am already observing 'Sabbath' on Sunday. If 'Sabbath' is not Sunday but a different day, please guide to that day through your calculation. I am also relaxing quite a bit on Sunday these days.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 7:24:22 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-1

I read your posting of 4 Apr 2008, soon after you posted it. I saw only two references to the scriptural verses. They were Exodus 20:8-11 and Col. 2:16. If I am wrong, please let me know. In both these references, I did not see any reference to worship. In Exodus, there was a command not to work. In Colossians, there was a command not to judge. Do you mean that 'not working' and 'not judging' are worship?

You wrote, **The children of Israel worshipped every 7th day sabbath and the on the additional ceremonial sabbaths, which may have fallen on other days of the week.** --- Do this allow one to insist on Sabbath Day as the only day of worship? Where do we read in the Bible, “The children of Israel worshipped every seventh day Sabbath,” as you wrote? I am asking for scriptural references.

2. You wrote as an answer to my second question, **As far as it is recorded in the Bible, Yes, they worshiped only on the sabbath day.** --- Will you please provide scriptural references to your answer. It should state that they worshipped “only on the Sabbath day,” as you wrote. Do you realize that this statement of yours contradicts your answer to my question #1?

3. As an answer to my question #3, you replied, **No. He emphasised worship on the sabbath, and as was His custom went to worship on every sabbath day. See Luke 4:16 As was his custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath,... See also Mark 6:2, Luke 4:31-32; Luke 13:10.** --- How did you come to conclude that going to the synagogue on Sabbath Day was to worship? In Mark 6:2, it is written, “And when the Sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue…” Are you saying, “teaching” is “worship?” Similarly, it is written in Luke 4:31-32, “… and taught them on the Sabbaths. …” In Luke 13:10, it is written, “And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.” In all these three, he was teaching on the Sabbath...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 7:26:04 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-2

... How did you come to conclude that teaching is the same as worship? If that is so, could we say that the schoolteachers worship more than the parents do, because they teach every day? This is a legitimate question; please answer. I need verses that clearly support your contention on my question. So far, you have told that ‘not working,’ ‘not judging,’ and ‘teaching’ are worship and it was according to the law and done on Sabbath.

You answered my question #4, **Read Acts 17:2 "And according to Paul's custom, He went to them, and for 3 Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.** --- Is reasoning with others is considered worship in the scriptures? If you answer is in the affirmative, then you and I are worshipping and it is not on the Sabbath. You should delay your postings, all of them, for the Sabbath. Then there is another problem, you are working by allowing your fingers do the walking over the keys. So far, you have told that ‘not working,’ ‘not judging,’ ‘teaching,’ and ‘reasoning,’ (Reasoning is the use of logic following the rules of logic. It is an act of the mind.) are worship and it was according to the law and done on Sabbath.

In answer to my question #4, you also provided the following references, **Acts 13:14; Acts 13:42,44; Acts 16:13; Acts 18:4.** --- I did not see any reference to ‘worship’ in Acts 13. All I read is that Apostle Paul went to the synagogue on the Sabbath and after reading of the law, he was asked to speak and he spoke. When they left the synagogue, the Gentiles asked them to preach the next Sabbath and they did. Are you telling that preaching is worship? In Acts 16:13, they gathered to pray by the riverside. If that prayer was worship, do you say that we could pray only on Sabbath, because of Acts 16:13 and it was on the Sabbath. He went there on the Sabbath and preached. In Acts 18:4, it is written that Apostle Paul reasoned with them in the synagogue on Sabbath...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 7:27:47 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-3

... If you consider reasoning, preaching, and teaching are worship and Apostle Paul did this only on Sabbath, how do you do? Do you limit all these only for Sabbath? If not, why not? You have not provided a single verse that demands that the worship in the Old Testament or in the new Testament was “only” on Sabbath, but you insist on it. (the source is your answer to my question #2.) So far, you have told that ‘not working,’ ‘not judging,’ ‘teaching,’ ‘reasoning,’ ‘preaching,’ and ‘praying,’ are worship and it was according to the law and done on Sabbath.


You answered my question #5, **Acts 20:7 is talking about a farewell meeting for Paul. Many Bibles title that text as Paul's Farewell Visit to Troas. The reference to breaking bread simply means that they sat down for a meal. (See Luke 24:30,35; Acts 2:46; Acts 27:35). Several Bible translations call this a Saturday night meeting, however, that is immaterial. See New English Bible, JB Philips translation, Today's English Version, Jewish New Testament, NT in Modern English.** --- I understand that the common use of the expression, “Break Bread,” means eating a meal. If Acts 20 is about just a meal, why Apostle Paul has to wait for seven days? He could have eaten a regular meal at any day with them. What do we learn from the institution of the Lord’s Supper? Are you saying that Apostle Paul and the disciples ate only once a week, on the first day of the week? You must be saying this. In 1 Corinthians 11, we read that the saints are to gather together in one place to eat the Lord’s Supper and break bread to remember the Lord’s death as the Lord broke it on the night in which He was betrayed. Why was that done of the first day of the week? That was my question.

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 7:28:46 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-4

If any call the first day of the week to be the last day, the seventh day, of the week, that is a nonsensical concept. The words in any language are things that stand for other things and are used by imparting extensional meaning. The word “first’ means that there is no other thing before that. Similarly, the word, “last” means that there is no other thing after that. The “first day” of a week means that there is no other day before that day for that week and the “last day” means that there is no other day after that for that week. However, you believe otherwise. You believe that the ‘first day’ is the ‘last day.’ If that is true, then there is only one day in a week. You believe in a one-day week. Could you explain this to me from the Bible? You may use Exodus 20:8-11. I am interested to know how the night of the first day became the night of the seventh day. When did the day began and ended, according the custom of the time of writing the Book of Acts? Please help!

After telling that whether it is the seventh day or the first day is of little importance, you went on to write, **So this verse does not in any way imply that the Sabbath had changed from the seventh-day to the first day, especially considering that the book of Acts specifically states that they worshipped on Saturdays.** Have you read what is written in Acts 20:7? “And the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread…” The day they assembled was the first day of the week and not the seventh day of the week. It is written in the Bible. You should not change the Word of God, to suite your fancy idea. I say that your idea is fancy, because you have not shown a single verse that tells that the worship is to be “only” on Sabbath.

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 7:29:41 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-5

You also wrote, **I have not mentioned anywhere that gathering together to break bread on the first day or any day is contrary to the command of God.** I apologize for my misunderstanding. Thank you for correcting me. Could I ask you for a favor? Please tell me what do you mean by, **Nowhere in the New Testament does it say that God changed one of His commandments. None of the disciples advocated a change of the commandment regarding the day of worship.** You wrote this on 20 Mar 2008 8:00:38 PM and was addressed to me. After reading this, was it appropriate for me to assume what I wrote and you promptly denied as quoted above?

Let me repeat what I understood from your writings, up to this point: So far, you have told that ‘not working,’ ‘not judging,’ ‘teaching,’ ‘reasoning,’ ‘preaching,’ and ‘praying,’ are worship and it was according to the law and done on Sabbath. I need scriptural references to this conclusion of yours.

Please remember, I am only trying to understand what you posted on this thread.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 8:43:28 AM Close
Hello George Koshy & Sonny,

Why do complicate the issue so much? Just do as stated in the command:

Exodus 20:
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work

Keep the seveth-day Sabbath holy means to engage in only Holy matters and refrain from secular activities. Any doubt read what all activities Jesus engaged in on the Sabbath day.

It is also a command to WORK on the other 6 days of the week and earn for you living.

Bobby


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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 9:12:06 AM Close
Dear Bobby,

Sonny Varghese and others are not taking what is in Exodus 20:8-11, as written. They are adding by claiming that the Sabbath day is the only day of worship. On 21 May 2008, Sonny Varghese wrote as his answer to my question #2, **As far as it is recorded in the Bible, Yes, they worshiped only on the sabbath day.** He has not given any reference from the Bible to check on this record.

What he writes is not true to the Word of God. It may be half truth and the rest is a lie. He also wrote that what he wrote is not true. That contradictory statement along with his insisting of Sabbath day as the only day of worship is what creates this problem.

The question is, are we cutting the Word of Truth in a straightline? When one insists that the worship on the first day of the week is what is borrowed from the pagan customs, by the Roman Catholics or some other groups, there is a problem. In Acts 20, it is historically stated and approved by the Holy Spirit. We must stand for our faith. The etiquettes of this world should not be the governing principles of our faith and conduct. We are expected to keep the Word of God and not to dilute it with lies. Worshipping on Sunday is a custom borrowed from pagans, is a lie. I thank God for the few who stood up against these kind of lies propagated by the posting of some, on this Forum.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 10:25:55 AM Close
Dear bretheren in Christ,

I want to tell right in the front that nobody is saved by keeping the Commandments. The Bible is very clear on it. We are all saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Then do a saved christian need to keep the Ten Commandments? I believe, we do. Without the Law, we do not know that we are sinners and we do not need the blood of Jesus Christ(Romans7:7)to cleanse us. In effect, the Law acts as a mirror. It shows the dirt on our face, but it does not cleanse it. Only the blood of Jesus can do it.

Now, if we have to keep the Commandents, don't you think we have to keep all of them. If we do not have to keep the Commandments under the N.T, that means, I can commit adultry, steal, murder etc. I do not think that any thinking person will agree to that. Now the problem is only with the 4th Commandment. People say it is done away with. They quoate Col 2:16. If you study carefully, you shall find that it is talking about other ceremonial Sabbaths in Lev.23. It is not talking about the seventh day Sabbath. The seventh day Sabbath was created in Eden even the sin entered human race!! So it is not anything given as a shadow of Jesus Christ, because Jesus had to come and die only because of the sin!! In fact only two things God established in the Garden of Eden before the sin. They are marriage and the Sabbath. I am sad to say that both are under attack now!! Also Sabbath Commandment is the only Commandment that start with the word 'Remember', and we are ignoring it.

My brothers, Ten Commandments is a package. If we break one, it is same as breaking all(James 2:10).

I think most people are thinking that Jesus broke the 4th Commandment. But Jesus did not break any Commandments. Jesus was showing them how to keep the Sabbath. He said it is ok do any good work on Sabbath. He healed the sick and ministered to people. Acutually that is the essance of the Sabbath. What the Sabbath Command prevented was not to work for earning our daily bread. We need to depend and trust God for that.

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 11:08:44 AM Close
Continued...

That is the essance of the fourth Commandment. That is why it is given as a seal(Read Ezk 20:12 and 20).Also please read Exd 31:17, Det 6:8, 11:18 you shall see the Ten Commandments are given as seal on forehead(mind to trust) and on right hand(our action). In the book of Rev, the beast is also giving a seal on the forehead and on right hand and that seal is beig connected to keeping the Commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus in Rev.14:12.

The Sabbath Commandment is given to us as a memmorial of creation(Gen 2:2-3 and Exod 20:11) and of His Salvation(Det 5:15). There are so many 'gods' in this world. But there is only one God who created us and the universe and who came down to die to save us. That is His authority over us. That is why in the book of Rev 14:7 the first angel is calling us back to worship the Creator God.

It is the question of obedience, are you going to obey the Creator God who told to keep the 7th day Sabbath just like Abel who obeyed and sacrifised the animal or like Cain who disobeyed Him.

It is Lord's Sabbath(Exodus 20:10, 16:23,25 etc), not ours. God never changes, so do His Sabbath. Also the Lords day(Rev 1:10) will the seventh day Sabbath not the first day of the week.

During Apostles time, they used to break the bread everyday(Acts 2:46). It does not mean all days are Sabbath of the Lord. We can worhip God on all 7 days in a week 24 hours in a day. But if we rest all 7 days a week, we are not pious, but we are lazy, because God told us to work six days.

Brothers, our country has laws, our church has laws. Don't you think that in order for them to change any of those laws, they would announce very clearly and well in advance so that there is any confusion. In the same way, if God wanted His Sabbath to be changed or abolised, He would have written clearly in the New Testament. There is no evidence of that in the New Testament.

In Acts 20:7, because Paul was departing next day, they were having a special meeting on Saturday evening and it continued

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 11:13:35 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

I agree with you that we can worship God any day - in fact we should do it every day.

My opinion on the issue is - Jesus found fault with Traditions and practices, especially the ones that contradict the plain teaching of the Bible, and more specifically one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

Mark 7:8

8You have let go of the commands of God and are
holding on to the traditions of men."
9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your owntraditions!

Read the entire chapter - the issue discussed is
not washing hand in a ceremonious way according to tradition. Jesus calls the accusers hypocrites and stated that their worship is in vain. The example given is the 5th commandment to HONOR YOU FATHER AND MOTHER; they had a tradition which excludes those who pledge their wealth to the Temple from financially taking care of the needs of their parents.

My conclusion is: you may worship on any day as long as you also keep the seventh-day Sabbath Holy according to the 4th commandment, and the seventh-day is the day that follows the 6th day of creation account and specified in the 4th Commandment.

Bobby

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 11:25:30 AM Close
through midnight. It does not mean that the Sabbath has been changed to first day of the week.

Regading the collection taken at Corinth(1 Cor 16:1-3), Paul is intructing the Church to set aside, the grains so that when he comes he can pick it up. When we read Acts 11:28-30, you shall understand that there was a famine in all over the world and the brethern there wanted to help the Church in Judea. I remember, my mother used to set apart one handful of rice each day for the poor, so that it can be taken to the church for the poor. So it is not talking about the change of Sabbath!!

Brothers if the 4th Commandment is 'done away with', that means there are only 9 Commndments left. Why then people are still calling it 'Ten Commandments'!!

Why God is telling us to honor our father and mother, because they gave life for us. In the same way, God is telling us that He created and saved us so keep His Sabbath. And I believe we should do it on the Day He told us to keep.

Thanks and May God bless you to find more truths from the Bible.

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 12:52:45 PM Close
Dear Tom Kalappura,

If New Testment believers are expected by Lord Jesus Christ to keep the Sabbath, then why did He not specifically command that, either in person, or through one His apostles?

All the other 9 commandments are repeated and stressed in various ways in many of Paul's epistles. I am not cross referencing all the verses here for simplicity, but it can be done. When it comes to the Sabbath, there is no mention of it as a commandment anywhere in the NT.

Especially note worthy is the resolution passed by the Jerusalem council. In advocating good practices to the newly converted gentile Christians, the JEWISH elders only recommended them to "abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:19)

If Sabbath observation was important for the NT church, don't you think this would be the right council to introduce this Jewish practice to the gentile churches? Therefore it is significant that sabbath was left out. This means the early Jewish church elders only observed sabbath just to keep their Jewish tradition - but they did not expect or demand any "gentile" churches to keep it.

Of course Paul used the Sabbath day to the greatest advantage by preaching to Jews and gentiles on the Sabbath day. Many gentiles came to the synagogues to hear Moses read. So Paul knew he had a good audience for the gospel in a synagogue on the sabbath day - one who already is trained in OT teachings and has the free time to hear a preacher.

Frankly, I find all this discussion on worshiping on the sabbath day "a big waste of time". This is mute issue in the NT and we should have better topics. God gave the 10 commandments ONLY to Israel. But to the church He gave His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus. If Jesus did not command something, I am going to consider it irrelevant to me. (Note: Christ did command the tribulation Jews to keep the Sabbath - Matt 24:20).

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 1:39:17 PM Close
moses2006

You will agree that the following passage is for everyone and not only to Israel -

John 14:15 (King James Version)
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Out of the 10 commandments, the only two positive commands are the 4th and 5th, to honor our heavenly Father by remembering to keep His day Holy, and to honor your earthly parents. The rest of the commandments are things you do not do if we love God with all your heart and love our neighbors as ourselves. These are the two commands a living person has to do something about.

This is not a simple matter to be ignored; the Sabbath command will be the only commandment that will be applicable in the earth made new when sin and sinners are done away with:

Isaiah 66:22-24 (King James Version)
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The question that remains – do you want to obey or be a transgressor.

Bobby

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 2:05:17 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

You wrote, **This is not a simple matter to be ignored; the Sabbath command will be the only commandment that will be applicable in the earth made new when sin and sinners are done away with:
Isaiah 66:22-24 (King James Version)
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.**

Could you explain this prophecy from the scriptures?

I requested the same to 'sloppyjoe50.' Unfortunately, he remains silent. Since, you made your posting on the same verses, please explain.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 2:16:16 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

You wrote, "The question that remains – do you want to obey or be a transgressor."

Do you know that the Lord jesus Christ violated the Sabbath. He allowed his disciples to violate Sabbath. When the Pharisees questioned Him, He replied to them about why He violated the Sabbath and His disciples could do the same. I made a posting on this, on this thread.

I hope that you are not referring to the Lord jesus Christ as the transgressor.

Do you observe Sabbath? If not, do you consider as a transgressor? I do not get the intent of this question.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 5:08:08 PM Close
George P. Koshy

So do you mean to say that those who were accusing Jesus of breaking the Sabbath was right and Jesus was wrong? Read the following texts:

Luke 6:8-10 (King James Version)

8But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.

9Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Mark 2:27-28 (King James Version)

27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

What we learn from the above verses is that doing good deeds is not violation of the Sabbath command. Jesus is saying I AM THE LORD OF THE SABBATH, in other words I made the Sabbath day for man, and who are you to say what constitutes violation of the Sabbath command. It is His day so He has the right to dictate the term or obedience.

Bobby


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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 5:38:52 PM Close
Dear Dr Koshy,

You have misquoted me several times in your post today. Earlier I explained from the Genesis account about how God ordained the Sabbath to be a holy day. So in the 1st paragraph of part 1 how did you jump to the conclusion that the 4th commandment is about not working and not worship. Secondly in the same paragraph you said that I quoted Col.2:16 as judging. I quoted Col. 2:16 to explain about the ceremonial sabbaths that the Jews kept.

Firstly, you are a very learned and intelligent person with a lot of wisdom. You might be playing the Devil's advocate to test other people's knowledge or to bring out other things. However, when you study the Word of God keep in mind that there may be other believers or new comers who are babes in the faith. They are going to be totally confused and misled by such comments.

I stated that the children of Israel worshipped on the sabbath according to the 4th commandment. Where in the Bible does it state that they worshipped on any other day, other than the Sabbath? Where are your quotes from the Bible - the same way you ask others to quote from the Bible?

2. Your response to my answer 2, why should the Bible state that they worshipped only on the Sabbath when the Bible states that they kept the Sabbath holy? How do I conradict myself in my response to questions 1 and 2? Please explain. Please show me where in the Bible the people of God, Jesus Himself, or His disciples kept another day holy? Please do not confuse others with the use of the word worship and keeping a day holy. We worship God everyday but we keep one day holy and the Bible according to the Word of God states that the day to keep holy is the seventh day and not the first day. That is what the Genesis account in Gen.2:2,3 and Exodus 20:8-12 is all about. Please do not jump to other conclusions.

3. Again you are jumping to different conclusions. The synagogue was for worship not for playing. Ask any Jew what the synagogue is for, even today.


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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 6:20:18 PM Close
2 Dr Koshy,

3. Let me give you a definition of the Synagogue from Strong's Dictionary and from the Complete Word Study Bible: Synagogue: 4864 sunagogue, to lead together, assemble. A gathering, congregation. The congregation of Israel was designated by sunagoge or ekklesia, church. In the NT, ekklesia, church is used most often as the name to God's church (i.e., the congregation of the saved). See Acts 14:2; 17:5; 1888:12 A synagugue was finally designated as the Sabbath Assembly of the Jews (Acts 13:14,15). In Jamesnagogue us used to designate the worshipping, assembly of the Jewish Christians.
(1) Of a Jewish assembly or congregation, held in the synagogues for prayer, reading the Scriptures, and with certain judicial powers.
(2) Metonymically of a Jewish place of worship, a synagogue, house of assembly. Synagogues appear to have been introduced during the Babylonian exile when the people were deprived of their usual rites of worship and were accustomed to assemble on the Sabbath to hear portions of the Law read and epounded. After their return the same custom was continued in Palestine. The exercises consisted chiefly in prayers and public reading of the OT which was expounded from the Hebrew into the vernacular tongue, with suitable exhortation (Luke 4:16, Acts 13:14). The meeting was closed by a short prayer and benediction, to which the assembly responded with 'Amen". Originally synagogues would seem not to have differed from the later 'proseuchai' prayers or prayer chapels, which were erected outside of the cities in the fields, and usually near streams or on the seashore for the convenience of ablutions.
It goes on to describe how it later became known as ekklesia. If I were to copy the whole of the Complete Word Study Bible text it would require 3-4 posts here. However, we can safely assume that the synagogue was the basis for the christian church.

contd. - 3

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 6:47:26 PM Close
contd. - 3

contd. Response to question 3:
To 'teach' "didasko", to 'read' "anaginosko", to 'reason' "dialegomai" - the scripture - is what worship is all about. Here again we are talking about corporate worship. We can do the same things for individual worship also although it is a little different. Teaching in a church or teaching as worship is not the same as teaching in a school. Several preachers use the teaching method to preach. As long as it is the word of God that is being expounded, teaching the word of God and preaching the word of God can be used synonymously.

4. The Bible says that we must pray without ceasing. That is constantly and not only on the Sabbath. We are talking about the Sabbath being a holy day and not that reading of the Word of God or praying must be only on the Sabbath. If you keep the Sabbath a holy day, devoted to doing good and to worshipping God, you are doing what God purposed for your life. Sabbath activities of reading, preaching, worshipping, singing are not restricted to Sabbath only but can be done everyday. Evangelists, Preachers, Ministers of the Gospel, Teachers of the Word of God, Individuals in their own homes, in public, can do this daily. But keeping the Sabbath on the 1st day of the week using Catholic or Gnostic excuses are what is not correct.

5. In the Acts 20:7 account, the bread ' artos' is the bread for sustenance. Else why mention that they broke bread before the meeting and after the long meeting broke bread. Also where do you read that he waited 7 days to break bread. Verse 6 simply states that Paul spent 7 days in Troas. As I mentioned earlier, based on the character of Paul, you can deduce that he went about daily, breaking bread with the believers there. Where in this account do you read that Paul authorized the change of Sabbath to Sunday?

5. Where in 1 Corinthians 11 do you read that the Lords Supper was to be on the 1st day of the week? Verse 1 starts with "Be Ye Followers of Christ" What did Chirst do? Do the same
-4

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 7:33:26 PM Close
-4

Dr Koshy, please read the Genesis account in Genesis 1 and 2 to answer your question of day, night, 1st day and 7th day(sabbath). You seem to be using 1st Century Gnostic arguments in your writing Part 4. I cannot write more than what the Word of God states as far as the evening and morning and the 7 day week is concerned. Where have I changed the word of God. The word of God is very clear from Genesis to Revelation in stating that the 7th day is holy and hallowed by God to be His rest day. Anyone who changes the Word of God to suit their convenience better think twice. Don't you read clearly the Word of God: God blessed, made holy the 7th day not the 1st day.

As I stated earlier the Acts 20:7 account is not talking about a worship that was changed from sabbath to sunday. It is a farewell message from Paul to the people of Troas, after which he walked and went to Assos. Absolutely nothing regarding the change of worship from 7th day to 1st day. Do you agree that much?

On May 21 you stated: "According to you, gathering together to break bread on the first day of the week should be contrary to the command of God." I ask you again where did I state this on March 20. And today you state: So far you have told that not working, not judging, teaching, reasoning, preaching, reasoning, preaching, and praying are worship and it was according to the law and done on the Sabbath. I need scriptural references to this conclusion of yours." These are conclusions that you have arrived at. I simply stated what is written in the Bible regarding Sabbath and you concluded it that way. I can give you scriptural references to only what God appointed as the Sabbath. You provide scriptural references to show that God changed the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day. Else state that you are following what the Catholic Church has claimed, that the Sabbath was changed by their authority, and there is no problem with that. But do not state that you came to this conclusion from the Bible.
-5

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2008 7:49:03 PM Close
-5 Dr Koshy

Can we agree on a few things first:
1. That in Genesis 2:2,3 God ended His work and He rested on the 7th day..God blessed he seventh day and sanctified it. That is He set apart this specific day to be a holy day.

2. This was done before the Jews came into existence and before sin came into existence.

3. The 4th commandment in Exodus 20 is part of the 10 commandments. In it it states: from verse 8 "Remember, the sabbath day, to keep it holy.... (to verse 11) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Did God make the 7th day unholy any time after the Genesis 2 account?

Did God change the 10 commandments or any of the commandments in the 10 commandments?

I have no other request.

Regards,

Sonny

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Reply by : fellowchristian   View Profile   Since : 24 May 2008 3:13:56 AM Close

I find it reasonable to agree what moses2006 has stated
“If Jesus did not command something, I am going to consider it irrelevant to me”.

Within my very limited knowledge in scripture, I find that Christ didn’t command to observe ‘Sabbath’ as He has commanded mankind to observe all other 9 universal commandments.
But I find it disappointing to see learned scholars are trying to establish some other ‘hidden agenda’ or some thing like that, and they fail to establish and prove with scriptural evidence whether a Christian is to observe Sabbath or not.

Read the quote fro Bro Moses’ narration:

“Note: Christ did command the tribulation Jews to keep the Sabbath - Matt 24:20.”

From the verse mat 24:20 Bro Moses establishes that Christ commands to keep Sabbath, he tells Christ commands the tribulation Jews!!
What we read in Matthew 24, is Lords talk to his disciples. He is not telling His disciples that these things are not going to happen in a time after their generation. He simply tells them :

“But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
You might tell me that Lord is talking to them looking to tribulation time. I agree, but, Jesus tells them to pray before tribulation time, and regarding their ‘flight’ that will have to flee prior to tribulation.(For then shall be the tribulation.)
If Jesus is commanding to observe Sabbath through this verse, the command is applicable at least to the disciples listening to him.
How can we interpret that Jesus is commanding a separate command exclusively to those unbelieving Jews? How can we assume that Lord is at greater compassion to the people who keep on refusing the redeemer and remain unbelieving Jews.

Through Jesus Christ the grace of salvation has become universal. If it was God's will that His people from all the mankind are to observe sabbath,it would have been taught by apostles

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 24 May 2008 8:49:02 PM Close
Dear Moses 2006,

You wrote that 9 out of the 10 Commandments are repeated in the N.T. Will you please give me the scripture reference where the second and third Commandments are repeated?

Thank you,

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 24 May 2008 10:10:04 PM Close
Dear Tom Kalappura

Here is what you requested:

2nd commandment - You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Paul condemns pagan creature idolatry in Rom 1:23 - And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.

Further, the spiritual dimension of creature idolatry is condemned many places, most notably:

1 Cor 5:21 - But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.

1 Cor 10:14 - Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.

3rd commandment - You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

This commandment is to be understood in the OT practice of using God's name in swearing the truth. Wrongful use of God's name meant using God's name in swearing a lie. The Lord discourages swearing completely in the NT and also extends this commandment to include the earth and Jerusalem in Mat 5:34, 35 - But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.

Peter adds to the concept of the sanctity of the Lord God (not just in the misuse of His name) in 1 Pet 3:15 - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts..

There are plenty of other verses, but the above are just a few. The NT takes all the 9 commandments and takes it further into the dimension of the human heart, which is where God desires obedience. The Sabbath commandment in notably left out, not just in the physical observation of the sabbath, but also in alluding to any spiritual dimension to this practice.

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 24 May 2008 10:49:46 PM Close
Dear bchako

The Lord did say in John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." No dispute on that.

But you are using this statement of the Lord to push your agenda of the Sabbath day worship. That is a misguided effort.

Don't get me wrong - I have no problem worshiping God everyday, including breaking the bread daily to remember my Saviour. And that includes Saturday. But I object to conferring a "holy" status on Saturday, by linking this day to OT Sabbath, seeing no relevance of that in the NT.

You may know of the incident in Mat 19:16-22. Here a rich man comes to the Lord, asking how to attain eternal life. The Lord, points to the Law given by Moses, especially the 10 commandments. Then in v18 and 19, the Lord "down selects" the most important commandments. Notably, Sabbath is left out by the Saviour.

But that is not my main point. In v20, this young rich man, who is also quite an intellectual, declares that he has kept the law since he was a boy (in Mark 10:20) But Matthew records him saying "What do I still lack?".

I think this young man was quite smart spiritually. Here is a person who has kept the law faithfully all his life and still knows deep inside that he lacking something. That lack is what drove him to Christ seeking eternal life.

The Lord of glory recognizes his dilemma and tells him in v21 - "If you want to be perfect..come follow me." The Lord clearly lays out - "If you want to have eternal life, then this law of Moses will not suffice. You will have to follow me."

From the above exposition what I want to point out is that, this same Lord, is not promoting the Mosaic law in John 14:15. The Mosaic law makes no one perfect and Christ is not asking us to keep the Law. It is Christ who makes us perfect enough for eternal life.

The Lord took all the Mosaic commandments, except Sabbath and laid it out for obedience in the heart. Yet that is not what makes one perfect. It is Christ Himself who is our perfectness. John 14:15 is laying out how we respond to His love that made us perfect.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 4:49:09 AM Close
Sabbath is instituted by God and it can not be abrogated. There is no reason to say that we will not honor Sabbath because it is not taught in New Testament or Apostles did not teach. The question and the dispute is only about the day of observance.

Quote:
"The change of the day. Originally at creation the seventh day of the week was set apart and consecrated as the Sabbath. The first day of the week is now observed as the Sabbath. Has God authorized this change? There is an obvious distinction between the Sabbath as an institution and the particular day set apart for its observance. The question, therefore, as to the change of the day in no way affects the perpetual obligation of the Sabbath as an institution. Change of the day or no change, the Sabbath remains as a sacred institution the same. It cannot be abrogated". (Easton's Bible Dictionary)

And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. (Exodus 16:23)

Man needs rest one day in a week and God showed this is necessary by He Himself taking rest on the seventh day.

WHEN DID THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FIRST OBSERVE SABBATH?

The first instance of observance of Sabbath by Israel was as described in Exodus Chapter 16.

"And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. (Exodus 16:23)

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 4:54:25 AM Close
Sunday Evening

Monday Morning 1st day
Evening

Tuesday Morning 2nd day
Evening

Wednesday Morning 3rd day
Evening

Thursday Morning 4th day
Evening

Friday Morning 5th day
Evening

Saturday Morning 6th day
Evening

Sunday Morning 7th day
Evening

===================================

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Ge 1:5 KJV)

Suppose God started His creation on Sunday Evening (I am supposing because there is no record) Monday morning is the first day. If we work out that way, Sunday morning is seventh day. And Sunday is also 1st day because we do not have 8th day in a week. Sunday evening should be the start of eight day/first day).
In America if it is evening, in India it is morning.

Or, somebody should clearly show a verse from Bible when exactly God started His creation. Sunday or Monday or Saturday.

Nobody is transgressor, because God Himself didnot reveal to us as to whether Sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday.

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (Joh 20:19 KJV)

When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection it was evening, which was also the first day of the Week. Please read again.

And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen. (Ge 8:5 KJV)

In the above verse it says in the tenth month. Does any one know when that tenth month fell in an year. It was "Tammuz" (tenth month according to Jewish calendar), that is it was in July according to the calendar that we follow.

Gospel and worshipping God is not to complicate issues.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 7:50:47 AM Close
Did Apostle Paul observe 'Sabbath'? Yes.

Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. (Acts 1:12)

Seven furlongs and a half--not quite one mile was legally allowed to walk on 'Sabbath' per Jewish Law.

Am I abrogating 'Sabbath' by making this post. No.

See! That is the difference. We are allowed to do good on 'Sabbath'.

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 1:38:43 PM Close
moses2006

I agree with your understanding of the rich young man. He was keeping the letter of the Law but not the spirit, which is to "love your neighbour has himself" - that is why to test him our Lord asked him to sell everything and give to the poor and follow him.

I take serious objection to your statement that "The Lord took all the Mosaic commandments, except Sabbath and laid it out for obedience in the heart."

How can you make such a statement in the light of the following verses:

James 2:9-11 (King James Version)
10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

1 John 2:3-5 (King James Version)
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Most solemn warning is given to our generation who is living in the end of the age:

Revelation 14:6-8 (King James Version)
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


John 4:23-25 (King James Version)
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I urge you to prayerfully consider the above verses.

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 7:08:41 PM Close
Dear bchacko,

When I said "The Lord took all the Mosaic commandments, except Sabbath and laid it out for obedience in the heart" - this is what I meant:

For example the 6th commandment says "Thou shall not kill" But Christ took this external commandment regarding a sinful activity done by hands to the internal emotions of hatred that first happens in the heart. In Matt 5:22 He said "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.."

Similarly we see the 7th commandment is "thou shall not commit adultery". But Christ again took adultery to the heart of man in v28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

Similarly the 3rd commandment says "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." But the Lord discourages swearing completely in the NT and also extends this commandment to include the earth and Jerusalem in Mat 5:34, 35 - But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.

This is what I meant by my statement quoted above. In this way we can see that all 9 commandments are emphasized for obedience for a believer. It is God's will that a believer obey these commandments. Christ added to this, His new commandment to love another as He loved us.

However, 4th commandment of the Sabbath is not repeated in the NT verbally by the Lord nor is its importance talked about by any of the apostles. Even a spiritual benefit of the Sabbath day is not found in the NT.

One reason for this exclusion of the 4th commandment could be what the writer of Hebrews wrote "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." (Heb 4:9). This points to a future event of rest for God's people. Thus, its possible that for a believer, the Sabbath is a reality only when Christ comes back and we are with Him.

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 8:48:14 PM Close
Dear moses2006,

If you read Matthew 22:34-40 you read about the Pharisee coming to Jesus to test Him. He was an expert in the law and his whole intention was to somehow trap Jesus. So he asked the question which was the greatest commandment. In verse 37 we read "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." This He said was the greatest commandment. Then He said verse 39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." verse 40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This is the summation of the 10 commandments. The first 4 deal with love to God and the next 6 deal with love for man. This is not something new that Jesus told the pharisee. This was already there in the Old Testament. In Deut. 6:5 Moses sums up the 1st 4 by stating: "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." This moses stated after repeating the commandments in Chapter 5. In Leviticus 19:18 we read towards the end of the verse: "... but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord." This was stated after all the rules that moses had stated regarding the treatment of one's neighbour in the previous chapters.
Now about your contention that the fourth commandment is not specifically mentioned in the New Testament, keep in mind that Christ showed by His example the keeping of the fourth commandment while He was living and in His death. Further, please read Hebrews 4: verses 4,9 and 10: There we read: verse 4 "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. continuing in verse 9 and 10: "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also ceaseth from his own works, as God did from his." I assume then that we are all people of God and therefore, the above verse says that there remaineth a rest for the people of God.

-2

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 9:13:15 PM Close
2 moses2006,

Sabbath in the New Testament:
"For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Mt12:8/Lk 6:5) The Sabbath thus is the TRUE Lord's Day.

"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day."(Mt 24:20) - speaking of something that was to take place approximately 40 years later, ie when Jerusalem was going to be destroyed.

Jesus also showed by His example that He kept the Sabbath.
" . . . they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day He (Jesus) entered into the synagogue, and taught." (Mk1:21)
"And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach . . . " (Mk 6:2)
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day . . . " (Lk 4:16)
" . . . (Jesus) taught them on the sabbath days." (Lk 4:31)

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." (Mk 2:27,28) Notice here that Jesus is stating that the Sabbath is NOT just for Jews, or Israelites, or Hebrews, or Semites (descendants of Shem), but FOR ALL MANKIND. That includes you and me.

In Hebrews 4:9 the word rest comes from the Greek word "Sabbatismos" (Strongs 4520). This means "a keeping of the Sabbath". In your response to Bchacko just above my post, you state: "This points to a future event of rest for God's people. Thus, its possible that for a believer, the Sabbath is a reality only when Christ comes back and we are with Him." So are you then stating that the Sabbath was kept from Creation to the time of the Disciples and then the Sabbath was changed from the seventh day to the first day and again when Jesus comes we will continue keeping the Sabbath on the seventh day? Wouldn't that mean that keeping Sunday as the day of rest is just wrong, because if it is right why would we have to change it back to the seventh day when we are with Christ? That doesn't make good sense.

-3

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 9:49:42 PM Close
-4 moses2006

In your post to bchacko on May 24 you quoted: "You may know of the incident in Mat 19:16-22. Here a rich man comes to the Lord, asking how to attain eternal life. The Lord, points to the Law given by Moses, especially the 10 commandments. Then in v18 and 19, the Lord "down selects" the most important commandments. Notably, Sabbath is left out by the Saviour."

Where in this does Jesus quote the 1st 4 commandments or the 10th? Does this mean that the 1st four are abolished. Christ mentions only 5 commandments in this episode. Your statement above "the Lord "down selects" the most important commandments" is wrong. The 10 commandments are in the order of importance. The 1st 4 are the most important, it is the greatest commandment.
Love for God precedes love for man, see Christs response to the pharisee quoted above.
In this instance, Christ knew that the man kept all the 1st 4 to the letter of the law. Although the man was rich he lacked something and that was the peace which only God can give. Christ was giving him a test. Christ was asking him to choose between the treasures of this world and the treasures of heaven. Christ was asking him the same question we see in Joshua 24:15 "choose you this day whom ye will serve." The rich man loved the gifts that God gave him more than the Giver, who was God Himself. The rich man chose the possessions of this world rather than the possessions of heaven. Christ asks you the same question, "whom will you serve?" God or Tradition?

Finally, in Mark 7 we read about Jesus disciples not eating with washed hands and the Pharisees criticized them. Christ answered them in verse 7 and 8: "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. for laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,".. continuing in verse 9: "...Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." It seems as of Christ were speaking directly to us, today, because that is exactly what we too are doing.

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Reply by : sloppyjoe50   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2008 10:39:59 PM Close
Some interesting observations:

On day 6 of the Creation week and day 6 of the Passion week Christ ended both with the sentence “It is finished.”
The following day (day 7) of Creation week and Passion week, Christ rested.

God Himself led in the observance of the 1st Sabbath rest. The angels of heaven, by the thousands witnessed it and shouted for joy. (Job 38). He wrote it with His own finger on tables of stone approximately 2500 years later. Tens of thousands, probably a few million heard the proclamation (Exodus 19, 20) Thousands of angels were present there too. (Psalms 68:17).
However, none of these conditions were present when the first day of the week was supposed to have been instituted. Sunday came in unannounced, unheralded, unnoticed, in every way an anticlimax to the original institution and inauguration of the Sabbath of the Lord. If God had wanted anything to do with the first day of the week, we must think that He wanted the change made in the most secret and inconspicuous way possible. So much so that the disciples themselves knew nothing about it. God did not mention it anywhere, His disciples kept quiet about it until their death. So how did God then communicate to His people about this change? The only answer is that God did not change this in any manner or form. This is the same God who said in Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I change not"

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Reply by : gys   View Profile   Since : 26 May 2008 3:33:27 AM Close
Without establishing which day is the first day of the week many believers from this general forum are unconscientiously already observing ‘Sabbath’ and yet continue to argue that there is no importance for ‘Sabbath’. The problem was only when the day is mentioned as ‘Saturday’. Is Sunday the first day of the Week or seventh day of the Week? Is it fine if Sunday morning is still the later part seventh day, which starts on Saturday evening? When there is no mention about 'Saturday', 'Sunday', or 'Monday' how are we sure that Sunday monring is not 'Seventh day'?

Here are few testimonies they posted in a thread in youth forum:

Thread Number: 00196 : Professional Career
Testimonies:

“There were times I was staying 110km far from the assembly and I used to drive one and half hours to reach the assembly for worship and weekly meetings and I made it sure I missed no spiritual activities, later my zeal was respected and I was transferred to a place near the assemly which is also 40km far from the fellowship place, and now again a transfer to a place 300km+ is difficult without worshipping and without any spirutal activites.Why need a Job like that.”
“Your testimony reminded me of a similar situation I faced in my life more than 10 years ago in which I decided to go to work in a country where there were neither any legal permission to gather in Lord’s name nor any fellowship I knew of. I take this opportunity to confess my unfaithful action for not seeking God’s will in that matter. But my gracious Saviors who carried me from darkness to light, from damnation to be an heir of heaven has been so faithful to me in spite of my unfaithfulness to Him at times.”
I went home, i sat with my daughter & wife. I said we cannot afford to loose her worship/sunday school for one uear for the sake of IIT coaching. God is all sufficient for us. Seek ye First The Kingdom of God. We all together prayed and decided not to attend these coachings. And my daughter too agreed.”

contd...2

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Reply by : gys   View Profile   Since : 26 May 2008 3:34:07 AM Close
...2

“Let me share a testimony: I know a person, now 40+, who was excellent in studies. Upon completion of his graduation with distinction everybody including his teachers asked him to try for Civil service exams (IAS), but only because of the reason, it is being held on Sundays, he refused to appear for the exams. Similar was the case with other top recruitment exams. Some of his friends were telling that he was a fool. But the Lord has given him due reward for his insight. He is well off now, not only in material matters but is doing much for the Glory of God too.”
“I want to share my testimony also to encourage one another that God will honour our decisions when we honour Him in our lives.
I was intially finding it hard to get a job and attempted for many companies. I had great marks in college. Whenever any company called I was good at writing their exams and doing interviews but somehow the last minute I used to get cancelled out. I submitted my resume to one of the world's largest multinational companies and after many months, they shortlisted me to write their exam. I was very much encouraged but sorely disappointed that they held this on a sunday. I was very keen to write this exam since the company was one of the best”
“When I was in college, I thought about going to USSR to study Astronomy. When I realized that I have to surrender my freedom in the Lord, I cast away that thought. When I graduated, my father wanted me to go to Middle East. When I realized the freedom from the Lord is to be restricted, I refused. When I came to USA and was working, my boss asked me to stay late and work, because I was the only one who used to go home on time and finished the work before time. I told him that my family expect me to have dinner together. I also invited my superiors that they should attend certain gospel preachings. I refused to approve over-time work to my subordinates and told them to spent that time with their families...."

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Reply by : gys   View Profile   Since : 26 May 2008 4:28:21 AM Close
One argument that these friends, who have posted tetimonies and yet continue to argue about the 'Sabbath' was that the Apostles broke the bread on the first day of the week, and, therefore, they should take absolute rest on 'Sunday'. It seems to me that their approach is more pharisical and legalistic than relying upon Scriptures. Where in the Bible it says that a person should take absolute rest on "Sunday"? Where in the Bible it says that a person should take absolute rest on 'First day of the week'? Where in the Bible it says that 'Sunday' is the first day of the week? I am not 'seventh day adventist'. Please do not get me wrong on this point. I am only trying to understand the basis for argument.

All that the Bible says is 'first day', 'second day', 'third day', 'fourth day', 'fifth day', 'sixth day' and 'seventh day'.

The Bible does not mention about Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.

The Bible also does not mention that a person should take rest on 'Sunday'. It also does not say about taking rest to the extent of foregoing an opportunity for an important examination or job opportunity. This legalistic approach is from man. It is man's conviction that 'Sunday' is holy and that he should take absolute rest on 'Sunday'. Is it not more a legalistic approach than 'Seventh day adventistists'?

Jesus need to remind them the very same verses, which they quote to thwart away the arguments of 'seventh day adventists'.


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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 26 May 2008 12:34:11 PM Close

Can I have lighter moments, please to break the impasse! After-all this thread is ending in logger-heads!

THE gentleman, who gets in to shambles more often than not and tries to catch a word on which he could rest his feet to escape like Gazelle, takes rest on Saturdays and Sundays also; On Saturday because it is Seventh day -- to observe 'Sabbath'; and on Sunday because it is the First day of the Week, when Apostles broke the bread. Seventh day is holy because God rested on Seventh day. First day is holy because, though not God rested on that day, Aposltes broke bread. - It is a tie!


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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 7:26:42 AM Close
Dear bchacko/sloppyjoe50

Deut 31: 11, 12, 13 - When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

1. The law was for a specific people, including the observance of the Sabbath - was exclusively given to Israel. No other nation received that from God.

2. The law had geographically applicability - the borders that God gave to Israel, as we see in v13 above. Even foreigners within the borders of Israel was supposed to keep the law, including the Sabbath.

Ex 31:13 - "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy."

The above verse shows that the Sabbath was a SIGN. It was SIGN between God and Israel. The SIGN meant to show the unique SANCTIFIED state of Israel. Thats why God expected Israel to keep the Sabbath Day holy.

The Christian church grew out of the Jewish nation. All the early church apostles and many elders were Jews. God never removed the Mosaic covenant to Israel. The church age of grace did not nullify the Mosaic covenant to the nation of Israel. So, the observance of Sabbath by the Lord and apostles is NOT meant to be an example. They did it because they were JEWS!! The Mosaic covenant to Jews comes back during tribulation.

But neither the Lord nor any apostles taught the CHURCH to keep the Sabbath. The Jews do keep the Sabbath even today. For a Christian every day is holy day of consecration. Every day he should deny himself - something the Jews did only on Sabbath.

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 10:16:04 AM Close
moses2006

Then in that case is eternal life promised to the Jews is only for them and not for us? How come you want to claim the promises but do not want to keep the obligations?

Don't you know that we become a spiritual Jew when we accept Jesus Christ - hence all the obligations apply to us if you want to claim the promises:

A Gentile is anyone who’s not a Jew. The Bible says that we, like these wild olive vines, are grafted in. Romans chapter 2, verse 28, here’s what Paul says – and this is a Jew writing – “For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew which is one inwardly [that means spiritually] and the circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

You can see a number of examples in the New Testament. John the Baptist said when preaching, ‘Do not think [he spoke to the Jews] that because you are descendants of Abraham that you have special virtue. God is able to raise up from these stones children unto Abraham.’

And Jesus said many will come from the East and the West [meaning the Gentiles] and will sit down in the Kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And again, Paul tells us that if ye are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed. We become Spiritual Jews by virtue of accepting Christ. We’re all saved under the new covenant. The New Testament covenant under which we’re saved, that contract, written with the Blood of Jesus said, “I’ll make a new covenant with the house of Israel….” So you must be a part of the house of Israel spiritually to participate in the new covenant.

Regarding Sabbath - use a serchable Bible and do a search of SABBATH and you will notice that more than any other commandment, Chirst taught the proper observance of the 4th commandment. Sabbath-Sunday was not an issue at that time so the apostles - it was changed later on after about 300 years.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 10:50:49 AM Close
Dear Moses2006

See my post on May 20 (addressed to Dr Koshy), regarding the history of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was God's commemoration or celebration of the creation of this world with the human race, created for the human race for God's fellowship and love to be made known to the creatures He created, loved and made in His image. At that time Jews were not even in existence, just humans. Now if somebody were to change your birthday to some other day, will your birthday actually change? The same is with the Sabbath. The only reason the day was created is to celebrate it with God. All other time periods like the day, month, are based on some other basis. However, there is no known basis for a 7 day cycle other than the sabbath.

Please keep in mind that the only race in existence when the sabbath was created was the human race, in its sinless form. So if Adam and Eve had not sinned, do you agree that the Sabbath would have continued? The thing to keep in mind that the 10 commandments were not given to the Jews but to all mankind.

The question is then did the death of Christ abrogate this and change it from seventh to first day? From Jesus example and from that of His disciples we find that He only came to amplify the Law. He is the one who stated that not one jot or one tittle (valli or pulli in Malayalam), simply meaning emphasis on a word, would change even if heaven and earth should pass.

Are the commandments all abrogated or just one?
How about the institution of family? Did God wipe that out too? Because family and sabbath are creations of God during the creation week.

If the sabbath is abrogated why do we think we will keep it in the new earth or after we go to live with Christ? Keep in mind that we are not talking about praying or worshipping God on a daily basis but keeping one day out of 7 holy.

My only question, again, is is this holy day the 7th day or the 1st day? If the 7th then by whose command and if the 1st then by whose command?

-Sonny

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 11:04:53 AM Close
To my brothers, friends, believers and non-believers,

There is some popular misconception going on in these threads. Primarily that the sabbath is for the Jews, Seventh-Day Adventists, World Wide Church of God, or Seventh-Day Baptists, or the 500 or so other churches that keep the 7th day sabbath holy.

I would like to clear that misconception. The sabbath is for all, including Brethren, particularly the Kerala Brethren. We have a culture and history of keeping the 7th day sabbath holy for 1500 years after the death of Christ, according to the Word of God. It was only the advent of the Portuguese and the persecutions that followed that changed this from saturday to sunday. The reason then was because the Catholic Church changed it from the 7th day to the 1st day. No other reason. They called us many names, none of which are true. We have been called Nestorians, Arians, and other heretics, but if you study history of the Church of Malabar (Kerala) you will find that we were pure believers of the Bible and the Bible alone. The Bible we used was the Aramic Version called the Peshito version. This is one of the purest early versions of the Bible. The portuguese declared that anybody reading those Bibles would be burned at stake and burned all the Bibles they could find. Several firm believers were also burned. The King James Bible was created using Bibles in the Original Text, one of them was the Peshito Version. We were called Nazrani Christians, in fact that is how even the Pope called us. Nazrani because we were the followers of the man from Nazareth. Thats all, we were a unique people. Check it for yourselves, do not believe anything until you check it out and then test what you have found out with the Bible. If it be of the Word of God, then that is what is supreme. Not what others say or tradition as some people say, or what other churches are doing. You cannot tell God that you did something because others did it. So check these out for yourselves before jumping to conclusions.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:18:33 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-1

I am not a Devil’s advocate, as you accuse me. If I was a Devil’s advocate, that was before I came to know the Son as my Savior, Lord, and God. Your accusation is false and it is with the intent to intimidate by the effective use of rhetoric.

There are two different arguments for the Sabbath, which was a shadow of things to come (Colossians 2:16-17), on this thread. The first is the teaching of Seventh Day Adventists. It is evident in the writings of ‘adpoilkj.’ The other is the teachings of the Covenant Theology. It is evident in your writings.

You wrote, **You have misquoted me several times in your post today.** --- Could you explain this? How did I misquote you?

You asked, **So in the 1st paragraph of part 1 how did you jump to the conclusion that the 4th commandment is about not working and not worship.** --- If you read Exodus 20:8 along with Exodus 20:9-11, you will read what I wrote. You are interjecting what is not there. I am just reading, as it is written.

You wrote, **Secondly in the same paragraph you said that I quoted Col.2:16 as judging. I quoted Col. 2:16 to explain about the ceremonial sabbaths that the Jews kept.** --- Where do you read in Colossians 2:16, about worship? It reads, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Colossians 2:16-17) Now you and others are judging those who say that Sabbath day is not the first day of the week or vis-à-vis. You are judging others about Sabbath days. This is prohibited in the verse that you referred to as your verse. It was a shadow of things to come and it came. When the real came, the shadow is not important.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:19:45 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-2

Your complaint required further answer. It is as follows: On 4 Apr 2008 6:04:57 PM, you wrote to me, (I am leaving out certain portions and they are indicated by “…”), **I still do not understand your question. There is no question that the Jews worshipped on Saturday…In addition to these sabbaths they also worshipped on new moons. These additional sabbaths and new moons were part of the Mosaic Laws and not part of the 10 commandments… If we look at the Old Testament, there are more than 50 references to the word Sabbath, and most of them refer to the sabbath in the fourth commandment. The new Testament also has almost 50 references to the word Sabbath and they to refer to the sabbath in the fourth commandment, except in Col. 2:16 where the reference is to the Mosaic Sabbaths and New Moons and not the sabbath commandment in the 10 commandment.** --- You wrote, **There is no question that the Jews worshipped on Saturday.** Where is the scriptural support? You also indicated that Colossians 2:16 deals with the ceremonial observation of Sabbath. According to you, that included worship. Unfortunately, Colossians 2:16-17 deals with others judging you. It will be good if you read Colossians 2:13 onwards, to be contextual.

The “babes” in Christ will be confused about the observation of Sabbath, new moons, circumcision, etc. The ‘Epistle to the Colossians’ is written against such teachings by the Judaizers.

You wrote, **I stated that the children of Israel worshipped on the sabbath according to the 4th commandment. Where in the Bible does it state that they worshipped on any other day, other than the Sabbath?** -- I asked for the scriptural support for that. You have not provided that so far. Now you write that I have to provide verses to support your claim that you cannot support from the Bible. It is your duty to provide supports for your statements.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:20:49 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-3

You wrote, **Your response to my answer 2, why should the Bible state that they worshipped only on the Sabbath when the Bible states that they kept the Sabbath holy? How do I conradict myself in my response to questions 1 and 2? Please explain. Please show me where in the Bible the people of God, Jesus Himself, or His disciples kept another day holy? Please do not confuse others with the use of the word worship and keeping a day holy. We worship God everyday but we keep one day holy and the Bible according to the Word of God states that the day to keep holy is the seventh day and not the first day. That is what the Genesis account in Gen.2:2,3 and Exodus 20:8-12 is all about. Please do not jump to other conclusions.** --- Let me say this. From my memory, I could say that I have only asked for you and others to provide scriptural support for what you and they write. You have not provided that. I did not say anything about which day is the day of worship and which day is not. If I wrote that the Lord Jesus Christ or His disciples kept certain days holy, then your question to me is valid. If I did not, then what is your justification? You wrote about Sabbath as the only day for worship, I asked, and you admitted that there are other days that the Jews used to worship God. You may ask me to give support for what I write, and not for what I did not.

In Exodus 20:8-11, we read that God hallowed that day. There are many other things that God hallowed, or told that they are holy. This was told to the children of Israel in the Laws of Moses. Will you be requiring that those holy things also should be used to worship God? If not, why not? Please remember that I have not made any statement about what day or days we should worship or not, on this thread. I just asked about scriptural support for your statements.

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:22:07 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-4

You wrote, **Again you are jumping to different conclusions. The synagogue was for worship not for playing. Ask any Jew what the synagogue is for, even today.** --- what the Jews do today is not my concern. It may be to you. During the time of Christ and the Disciples, when did they go to a synagogue to worship? Please give scriptural evidence. I have shown, how you misinterpret certain verses, in this subject, before. They went there to pray, read the scriptures, and preach. They did not go there to worship or to break bread. Where do we read that preaching, reasoning, praying, singing, etc. are worship? We read this in the writings of Covenant Theology.

You wrote, **In Jamesnagogue us used to designate the worshipping, assembly of the Jewish Christians.** --- Your large cut-and-paste from other sources is interesting. It only says, at the best, that it is from a tradition from the Babylonian captivity that made you say that the Synagogue was a place of worship of the Jews. In another thread, I asked others to participate on a study on worship and no one wants to do that. At the same times, many want to establish what is not in the scriptures as if that are in the scripture. Are we discussing the Word of God, or are we establishing what is not in the Word of God. Please stay with the Word of God. Babylonian tradition is an excuse to establish Sabbath Day as the only day of Worship for the Jews. Could you tell me where James wrote about synagogue as a place of worship?

Could you provide the scriptural support for what you wrote, ** However, we can safely assume that the synagogue was the basis for the christian church.**?

You wrote, **To 'teach' "didasko", to 'read' "anaginosko", to 'reason' "dialegomai" - the scripture - is what worship is all about. Here again we are talking about corporate worship.** --- Please give scriptural support that corporate worship is reaching, reading, and reasoning?...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:23:33 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-5

... It appears that you are with the Mar’s Hill company (Acts 17).

You wrote, **If you keep the Sabbath a holy day, devoted to doing good and to worshipping God, you are doing what God purposed for your life. Sabbath activities of reading, preaching, worshipping, singing are not restricted to Sabbath only but can be done everyday. Evangelists, Preachers, Ministers of the Gospel, Teachers of the Word of God, Individuals in their own homes, in public, can do this daily. But keeping the Sabbath on the 1st day of the week using Catholic or Gnostic excuses are what is not correct.** --- where do you read that a Christian should keep Sabbath as a holy day? This is part of the question, you failed to answer for the last two weeks, but you insist on it. If you are convinced about it, you should keep it as holy without doing any labor to earn money or save money in any manner. Do you refrain from moneymaking or money saving labor on your Sabbath Days? I am told that it is a shadow of things to come and I have not found any verse that tells me to keep it holy. To the Jews, it was told that they should keep it holy. You might have read Roman Catholic teaching. I have not. However, I have read many Covenant Theology teachings to that effect, without any support from the scriptures.

You wrote, **In the Acts 20:7 account, the bread ' artos' is the bread for sustenance. Else why mention that they broke bread before the meeting and after the long meeting broke bread. Also where do you read that he waited 7 days to break bread. Verse 6 simply states that Paul spent 7 days in Troas. As I mentioned earlier, based on the character of Paul, you can deduce that he went about daily, breaking bread with the believers there. Where in this account do you read that Paul authorized the change of Sabbath to Sunday?** --- About the Greek word for bread, ARTOS:...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-6)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:25:11 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-6

... It is the general word for bread. When you wrote that it is the word of “the bread for sustenance,” what is the word for “bread for non-sustenance?” Please tell. Could you provide this? Yes, I read that Apostle Paul waited seven days. You should read Acts 20:6. I did not deduce anything, I read as it is written. You are the one who infer what is not written and insist that your inference is to be accepted without question. Where did I write that Apostle Paul changed Sabbath to Sunday? You are falsifying facts.

You wrote, **Where in 1 Corinthians 11 do you read that the Lords Supper was to be on the 1st day of the week? Verse 1 starts with "Be Ye Followers of Christ" What did Chirst do? Do the same ** --- The context of gathering of the saints to eat the Lord’s Supper is from 1 Corinthians 11 through 16. You will find your answer in 11 and in 16. You asked, “What did Christ do?” He told, “It is written.” He also told that we should read what is written as it is written. He also told that we should have an ear to hear what the Spirit says and not to add to it. Do you do any of them? Read about what the lord Jesus Christ said about Sabbath.

You wrote, ** On May 21 you stated: "According to you, gathering together to break bread on the first day of the week should be contrary to the command of God." I ask you again where did I state this on March 20. And today you state: So far you have told that not working, not judging, teaching, reasoning, preaching, reasoning, preaching, and praying are worship and it was according to the law and done on the Sabbath. I need scriptural references to this conclusion of yours." These are conclusions that you have arrived at. I simply stated what is written in the Bible regarding Sabbath and you concluded it that way. I can give you scriptural references to only what God appointed as the Sabbath...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-7)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:29:07 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-7


You should provide scriptural references to show that God changed the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day. Else state that you are following what the Catholic Church has claimed, that the Sabbath was changed by their authority, and there is no problem with that. But do not state that you came to this conclusion from the Bible.** --- I came to the conclusions, from what you wrote. If I should change my conclusions about what you wrote, please provide scriptural support that God appointed Sabbath as the day of worship and the Jews kept it as the only day of worship. In the past, you have sought the help of outside sources. You may do so. After that, you have to provide the justification of your statements from the scriptures and not from man’s writings. You failed to do that and then accuse others for following Roman Catholic dogmas while you follow the Babylonian tradition. This I conclude, from you recent postings.

You also wrote, **That in Genesis 2:2,3 God ended His work and He rested on the 7th day..God blessed he seventh day and sanctified it. That is He set apart this specific day to be a holy day.** --- Please explain the last sentence, **That is He set apart this specific day to be a holy day.** If this was so and we are expected to observe the Sabbath Day as the day of worship, did Adam observe it? Did Enoch, who walked with God, observe it? Did, Noah observe it, while making the ark? Did Abraham observe it? Did Isaac observe it? Did Jacob observe it? Did Joseph observe it? Did Moses and the children of Israel observe it, before they were in the wilderness? If God, set apart the seventh day as a holy day of worship, then it should have been observed as such by the early men, especially the one who walked with God - Enoch. Please provide the scriptural support.

(To be cont. Part-8)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:30:10 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-8

You wrote, **The 4th commandment in Exodus 20 is part of the 10 commandments. In it it states: from verse 8 "Remember, the sabbath day, to keep it holy.... (to verse 11) For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Did God make the 7th day unholy any time after the Genesis 2 account?
Did God change the 10 commandments or any of the commandments in the 10 commandments?** --- You be the judge on this. It is your argument. Please read verses like Exodus 31:15. Let me quote the later part of that verse, “…Whoever do work on the Sabbath day shall certainly be put to death.” Again in Exodus 31:16-17, we read, “And the children of Israel shall keep the sabbbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations – it is an everlasting covenant. It shall be a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever,…” God appointed the seventh day as a day of rest to the children of Israel as a sign of the covenant between Jehovah and them. Those who refuse that sign were to be put to death. If you think that you are children of Israel and you should observe it, then you also should say that you should be put to death, if you violate it. The covenant theologians do propagate that Sunday is the Sabbath day. I did not say anything like that. The Seventh Day Adventist teaches that we should keep the Sabbath day as holy. The Word of God, using Apostle Paul says that it was a shadow of thing to come. When the real came, the shadow has no prominence. I asked about this in different manner earlier, but you ignored my question. Please answer.

(To be cont. Part-9)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 1:30:46 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-9

Please remember, on this thread, I was only asking you to provide scriptural support for what you wrote. When you provided some verses, I went through them and found to be short of any kind of support. I have not said anything pro or con about worshipping on certain day or days. I am only saying that the verses you provided fall short of its intended purpose. On the contrary, they refute your assertions.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2008 8:23:02 PM Close
Few interesting points:

Constantine's edict reads:

"On the venerable Day of The Sun [venerablili dei Solis] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits Codex Justinianus, book 3, title 12,3, trans. in Schaff, History of the Christian Church 5th ed. (New York: Charles Scribner, 1902), vol. 3, p. 380, note 1.

Upon the first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread" Acts 20:7.

IGNATIUS, the third bishop of Antioch, who died in AD 108, wrote:

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him... Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat."...let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]" "Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians," The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pp. 62-63

In 1582 Gregory XIII found a miscalculation in the calendar and decreed to drop October 5-14 and to drop 3 leap years in every century. In England 11 days (September 3-13) were dropped in 1752, in addition to other changes.

Romans 14:5
"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."

Galatians 4:9-11 "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

Colossians 2:16-17 "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink..."

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 28 May 2008 10:30:49 AM Close
Dear Moses2006,
Sorry to reply you late because of the long weekend.
You wrote that the 2nd Commandment is reinstated in the N.T in Rom 1:23, 1Cor 5:11 and 1Cor 10:14.In the last two verses is agaist the first Commandment. Please read Col 3:5. But Romans 1:23 is talking about making images of four footed animals. But I can argue(in the same way you do about the Sabbath)that I love Christ so much that I want to make an image of Him and worship that. What is wrong with that? That is the argument Catholics give.

You said the 4th Commandment is not reinstated in NT. Please read Luke 23:56 talking about Jesus's deciples "then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils and they rested on the Sabbath according to the Commandment". Please remember that Luke wrote this many years after Jesus's resurrection!!

Acts 17:2- Even when Paul was on his trip, he stopped at Thessalonica and went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath. Of course, he used the times on Sabbath to talk about Christ too. But his intetion of going to the synagouge is not to reason with the Jews as some of you teach.

Acts 13:42 "So when the Jews went out of the synagouge, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath".

If they were going to church on 1st day, they would have asked Paul to speak again on Sunday(or the next day). Instead they were telling him to say these words be preached on the next Sabbath. That means they were not having any other meetings in between.

Hebrews 4:11 Please read from verse 1 onwards. It is clear that we will be entering the final rest in heaven. So the Sabbath rest on earth is a shadow of the final rest in heaven. So we have to keep it until that time.

My brother Moses2006, why do you think the 7th day Sabbath is a ceremonial(Mosaic)Law given only to Jews? All the ceremoneal laws were shadow of Jesus Christ. But why did Jesus come to the earth?

Contd...

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 28 May 2008 11:00:45 AM Close
tom kalappura ....

Jesus had to come because of Adam and Eve's sin, right? But the 7th day Sabbath was establised even before sin entered human race!! Was Adam and Eve jews? Can you please explain?

Yes we have to observe it in the spirit of the Law. What is the spirit of the 4th Commanmdment. Is it not 'Trust and obey'. I want to trust God to take care of my daily bread. At the same time I want to obey to God's commandment. He tells in the Bible to rest on the 7th day. That is the only day He has blessed and sactified!! Can you please show me a scripture showing otherwise? Are we not to obey just like Abel who sacrificed the animal(a shadow of Jesus Christ)? Please do not be like Cain, who gave human efforts as offering to God. Abel offered the animal in faith and that is why his name is in Hebrews 11 along with other people of faith.

Or do you think God made a mistake by inserting one of the Ceremonial laws into Moral law of God(the Ten Commandments) by giving us the 4th Commandment?

Bible does not contradict each other. If it does not, how can you explain Mathew 5:17&18 and James 2:10?

As I wrote earlier, if God wanted to abolish or change one of His laws(Ten Commandments represents His character), don't you think God will write in His Bible very clearly about the change? I already explained about Acts20:7, 1Cor 16:1-3, and Col 2:16.

Think about it. We have to understand the Sabbath Commandemnt in the context of the battle between Christ and devil. Daniel 7:25 says one political power will come and try to chage God's law and time. So we have to understand who that power is. Didn't devil use the relegious leaders of Jewish nation to kill Jesus? So is it possible that devil can use another influential relegious and political(Rev 17:7 says "women that carries the beast". So it is a political power that has relegious power also. Only one power in the world has relegious and political power in one person's hand. Please pray and study about it.

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 28 May 2008 11:37:35 AM Close
Dear Tom,

>>Are we not to obey just like Abel who sacrificed the animal(a shadow of Jesus Christ)?

So even today, do you do what Abel and the Israelites did - sacrificing of animals for atonement, the various procedures and punishments for different types of sin as God also commanded Israel to keep these laws?

If no, then why have you stopped even though the Lord commanded them to keep them?

Or are you selective in keeping only the old testiment laws that are convenient for you?

>>Please read Luke 23:56 talking about Jesus's deciples "then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils and they rested on the Sabbath according to the Commandment". Please remember that Luke wrote this many years after Jesus's resurrection!!

Please also remember that Christ did not resurrect yet. You are mixing the time when Christ lived perfectly to fullfill the law to the time after his resurrection when he proved victor over death. Rememeber that the Joseph and Mary followed the old testament laws also with respect to the birth of a male (Luke 2:23-25).

Will you keep this law if a son is born in your house hold?

Romans 10:4 - For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness to EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVETH.

If someone does not believe in the completed work of Christ, then they should continue living under the law. And if you live by the law, then you will also be judged by it also. And if you break one law, it is like breaking all of them.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Rather than living under the law which God conveyed to Moses and the Israelites which were a shadow of things to come through the perfect and complete work of Christ, let us be led by the Spirit and be not under the law:

Galatians 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, YE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.

If you are led by the Spirit, then you are not under the law.

In Christ,

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 28 May 2008 12:58:46 PM Close
Hello Friends,

I feel some members are confused they feel:

"Well, the law of Moses was nailed to the cross and that included the Ten Commandment law, so we don't want anything to do with it." It is true that some ordinances came to an end at the cross, but let's be careful to identify these ordinances correctly. Were the Ten Commandments nailed there, and did they cease to operate at the time Jesus died? Let's notice a text in Ephesians 2:15. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." Now this does say that a law of commandments containing ordinances was nailed to the cross. It apparently was abolished, it says, through Christ. But what commandments were those? Let's read on in another text, Colossians 2:14. "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Now notice, friends, which law is being dealt with here. It says that one was blotted out, it was apparently a law that was against us, contrary to the Christian. Paul goes on in verses 16 and 17 to explain which law he is talking about and which ordinances are meant. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Now here he spells it out for us. He says the laws which he's talking about and the ordinances involved here are the ones having to do with meats and drinks and new moons and things which are a shadow of things to come. There's nothing in the Ten Commandment law at all that's a shadow. It's all plain, solid commandments intended for all the world.


Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 29 May 2008 11:57:08 AM Close
Dear believer bible,

Thank you for your advice that I can do anything, since I am not under the law. I did not know that I can commit murder, adultry, steal etc.once I believe Jesus is my Saviour, because I am not under the Law!!

But even a common person do not think that they can do that. So untimatly 'we are not under the law' only when it comes to the Sabbath Commandment. I do not not why. If we need to keep only nine out of ten, why don't you call it Nine Commandments instead of Ten Commandments'?

As I said in the last post, all the sacrificial laws are 'done away with at the Cross'. We do not have to do it anymore. But the Ten Commandments which was there since the begining are to be kept even now.

In Paul's writings, he uses the common word 'Law' to signify Moral Law of God, Sacrificial laws, cermonial laws, health laws etc. We have to understand depending on the context and other scriptures.

Hope this will clarify a little bit.

With prayers

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 29 May 2008 1:04:35 PM Close
Dear believer.bible,

The principle of LAW and GRACE can be illustrated by the following example:

Assume while driving I was over speeding and was pulled over by the police. Under the LAW I have to pay the penalty; I pleaded with the Police man, the Police man said that he cannot pardon my transgression since it is duty to enforce the law, but he felt pity for me, so along with the bill for the fine I have to pay, he gave me his personal check equal to the amount of the fine, and then he let me go on my way.

Now I am driving under the GRACE of the police office – so do you think I will despise his grace and break the law again by driving over the limit? I will naturally be more careful to obey the Law. If I break the law I will no more be under Grace, but back under the Law – and there will be not more Grace available. Read the following texts and understand the seriousness of the issue:

Romans 6:14-16 (King James Version)
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Hebrews 10:25-27 (King James Version)
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

But if we unknowingly sin:

1 John 2:1-3 (King James Version)
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 29 May 2008 3:26:34 PM Close
Dear bchacko:

A child of God keeps the law out of love and a renewed mind that is created in the image of God. But the person is still in sin and will break the laws of God.

Your analogy to the cop-speeding scenario is week for the discussion. To be like Christ, the cop will have to give the driver "permanent pardon" for all of the driver's reckless driving habits for all his life. That is what Christ did. He paid for all our sins - past, present and future. Thats why God's grace is something we cannot get out of, even if we tried.

So, when it comes to the laws of God, both God and man recognize that man cannot keep it well. Even very godly believers cannot obey the laws of God perfectly. The only recourse for a believer is to trust in Christ's perfect obedience and accept that as his own obedience.

So we are under no obligation to keep the law perfectly. We are under obligation to receive the grace of God by faith in Christ's obedience to the law.

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 30 May 2008 3:48:42 AM Close
moses2006

You got it right - once you are willing to obey the Law and have faith in Jesus, the rest is the working on the Holy Spirit in you. The process of becoming perfect is known as Santification. It is a different topics, if you are interested, you may open a new topic for discussion.

Like a child who stumbles while learning to walk, so a Christian who is in the process of developing a Christ-like character is perfect in each stage of development.

We are given his robe of righteousness and we are Justified by our faith in the blood of Jesus and presented before God the Father as we have never sinned.

I am glad you understood the importance of the Law.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This includes all of the 10 commandments.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 3 Jun 2008 7:53:46 PM Close
Dear Dr Koshy,

Please do not feel offended. I am not accusing you of being the Devil's advocate. It is simply a figure of speech I used to show that sometimes we try to bring forth a truth by asking questions that are perplexing. I realize that you are a very knowledgeable and elderly person and I respect you for the knowledge you have acquired. However I was perplexed by some of your comments and reasoning. I am also not trying to intimidate anybody by my rhetoric, and am neither a theologian or an orator, but am trying to bring out the simple truths from the Word of God. In this case I am trying to question the validity of Sunday(1st day) being a holy day instead of Saturday. The Word of God clearly shows that the 7th day was made holy so question you on why the 1st day is holy, and am inquiring if that is Biblical or by tradition. That's all.

In your 1st post (Part 1) from May 27 let me show you how you are misquoting me when I quoted from the scripture.
The 4th commandment in Exodus 20:8 starts with, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy." That is the main subject of the 4th commandment. You are misreading it and stating that Sabbath is not work. The gist of the commandment is therefore keeping the day holy. The following verses simply state how it is to be kept holy - by not doing any of your own work. Then in verse 11 the commandment also states where it originated from and why. When you read the creation account and how God ended it on the 7th day by making a day for rest holy and blessed you can come to a full understanding on the how and why of this commandment. This commandment is not about judging or not judging and it is not for the Jews but for all humans. Because God made it at Creation before the fall of mankind. Thus I have showed you scriptural support from both Genesis and Exodus to support this.

In the next para. on May 27 (part 1) you state: "Now you and others are judging those who say tht Sabbath day is not the first day of the week or vis--avis."
contd.-2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 3 Jun 2008 8:18:55 PM Close
contd-2 Dr. Koshy,

"You are judging others about Sabbath days." On April 4 I had written about the 7 Ceremonial Sabbaths the Jews kept. Rules for meat eating, drink, holy days, new moons, and the ceremonial Sabbaths referred to in Col.2 were rules that Moses gave for the Jews. All the commentators I had read (Barnes, Clarke, Henry, Vincent Word Study, People's New Testament - all freely available on the internet)on Col. 2 state that Col.2:16 refer to the ceremonial law. These were customs the early jewish christians insisted on the gentiles keeping. This is what Paul is writing about in Colossians 2. It does not refer to the 7th day being holy or the 4th commandment out of the 10. The ceremonial laws were what was a shadow of things to come and not the moral law or the 10 commandments. None of the 10 commandments pointed to Jesus as the lamb of God but the ceremonial laws prescribed in Leviticus point to Him as the full and final sacrifice. It is only the Mosaic or Ceremonial Laws that were ended with Jesus death. The moral law or the 10 commandments continue in full force until the end of time. Particularly the 4th commandments shows Christ as the creator of the universe - and will be commemorated even in the new earth (Isaiah 66:22 & 23). Again the commentators I read regarding this verse are unanimous in their opinion that the 7th day sabbath is a perpetual covenant and will be kept in the new earth. Please check the commentaries you have and let me know if they are any different. Coming back to Col. 2: - are you then stating that the 10 commandments were a shadow of things to come and were nailed to the cross and therefore are no longer valid or binding on men?

Again when we talk about Sabbath vs. Sunday we are referring to the day being kept holy. Genesis 2:2,3 and Exodus 20 both say that God blessed the 7th day and made it holy.

Please show me 1 reference where God made the 1st day holy and blessed it - instead of all the clever arguments and assumptions put forth here.

- contd

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 3 Jun 2008 8:53:59 PM Close
contd.3 Dr. Koshy,

In part 3 and 4 of your May 27 post you ask where the Jews, Christ, the disciples worship on Sabbath. There is much posting above for this. However if you need let me quote the scriptures here:
Luke 4:16 (and as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, andstood up for to read) - it shows that it was Jesus custom to go the synagogue on the sabbath. Keep in mind that Luke's gospel was probably written after Paul was imprisoned and Luke would have not made the error of stating that keeping the sabbath was Jesus custom, if the Sabbath was not kept until then.
Also:
Mark 1:21
Mark 6:2
Luke 4:31
Luke 13:10
Finally if you look at the gospel account of the day after Jesus death, the bible says that Jesus followers rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. (Luke 23:56) also found in Matt.27, Mark 15 and John 19.

Now where do you read that they kept the 1st day holy? The only statements about the 1st day is one in Acts 20 where it talks about a farewell meeting for Paul. Keep in mind that the book of Acts talks about the disciples breaking bread daily.(Acts 2:46) So I don't think Acts 20 is talking about keeping a day holy under any circumstance. On the other hand it specifically mentions that they went to the synagogue and in fields on the Sabbath to worship. (Acts 13:14, Acts 13:42, Acts13:44, Acts 15:21, Acts 16:13, Acts 18:4). Finally in Acts 17:2 we read, "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, three sabbaths reasoned with them out of the Scriptures". So we can infer that it was Paul's custom also to go to the synagogue every sabbath.

I have, therefore, given you evidence from the Bible to show that Jesus and the disciples worshipped on the Sabbath. Now please quote the scripture to show where it was their custom to keep any other day holy.

At the end of part 4 you state: "Could you tell me where James wrote about synagogue as a place of worship?" Where have I stated this? Please show.

contd. -4

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 3 Jun 2008 9:46:41 PM Close
contd.-4 Dr Koshy,

If you read the verses I quoted above you will find out scriptural support for where corporate worship is preaching, reading and reasoning.

In part 5 you ask: "where do you read that a Christian should keep the Sabbath as a holy day?". We can only show you (from all the above verses I quoted) that all people should keep the Sabbath as a holy day. Starting from Genesis 2:2,3 to Revelation 22:14 you can see that keeping the commandments / sabbath holy is a requirement for all. So please show where this is not a commandment for Christians.

In your 6 questions on May 21 you were the one who stated that the disciples kept the 1st day of the week in Acts 20:7. I was explaning the meaning and context of Acts 20.

You also asked what other word was used in the Bible other than 'Artos' bread. Several words are used in the Bible for bread:
- Azumos and matstzah for unleveaned bread
- chamets for unleveaned bread
- lechem for bread
- raqivq for thin wafer/cake
- challah for cake
- uggah for bread baked on a hearth
- kavvan for sacrificial wafer
- pascha for passover meal
and several others.

In part 6 you state that in 1 Cor.11 you read that the Lords Supper was to be on the 1st day of the week. I don't see it in any of the verses in 1 Corinthians 11. Please quote the verse. Instead you state "'Be Ye Followers of Christ' What did Christ do?". Let me tell you. Christ kept the Sabbath holy. He went to the synagogue on the Sabbath, prayed, taught, read the scripture, explained it etc. So do you do it. In 1Cor.16 we read about Paul asking a collection for the saints in Jerusalem. Here Paul was requesting a collection to be made on the 1st day of the week "that there be no gathering when I (he) comes". Evidently Paul did not want them to break the Sabbath by collecting things for the needy because this might have involved much work - work that should not be done on the sabbath. It only shows that he told them to work on the 1st day, hardly a sabbath activity.

- contd 5

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 3 Jun 2008 10:15:31 PM Close
contd. 5 Dr Koshy,

None of my writings are based on any church teaching but simply on the Word of God. The only time I stated something about Catholic sources is to show that they state that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday by the authority vested in them and not by any Biblical mandate.

I do not follow Babylonian tradition. Whatever, gave you such an idea. I do not subscribe to Covenant Theology either. I believe that the Bible can be read by ordinary people and can be understood by all. We do not need outside sources to help us understand the Bible. The Bible stands alone. It is the complete word of God and can be used all by itself for study, for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim.3:15,16).

In part 7 you ask about Genesis 2:2,3. How do you read this? Genesis 2:2,3 state: "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Clearly shows the origin of the Sabbath. I did not read here as well as in Exodus 20 the statement that this was for the Jews. But in the new testament read that the Sabbath was made for man, not just for Jews. It also states He blessed it and sanctified it. Please explain your understanding of this verse, since I have explained mine.

Then you ask about Enoch and others. The history of the patriarchs from Adam to Noah (a period of close to 2000 years) is covered in 32 verses in Genesis 5. Evidently God taught Adam His commandments after sin. So Cain did wrong when he killed Abel. The Bible simply states that Enoch walked with God. It means that Enoch kept all that God required of him, including keeping the sabbath holy. Else what was the difference between Enoch and one who did not walk with God?
- contd 6

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 3 Jun 2008 10:39:54 PM Close
contd.6 Dr Koshy,

Law was given to Adam after the fall. Breaking of the law was how sin was defined. In Genesis 4:7 we read: "....and if thou doest not well, sn lieth at the door." How could any wrong doing be called sin - if there was no standard? In Genesis 6 we read about the wickedness of man. Again how could anyone be judged wicked in the absence of a standard or a law. What difference was there between Noah and the ones he was called to preach to? How did Noah find grace in the eyes of the Lord?
What differentiated Abraham from the people of Sodom and Gomorrah? Why did God bless Abraham and his sons as oppossed to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah? Evidently all the patriarchs kept the law of God and obeyed it to the extent they understood. In Jewish tradition the Oral Law was present from Creation to Moses. However, these are not stated expressly in the scripture.

Philo and Josephus both state that it was common in rabbinic thought to claim that the patriarchs observed the whole Torah, including the whole of the oral Law, before it was actually given. Abraham and the patriarch are spoken of by Philo in this sense as "living Law", meaning that Abraham was the living embodiment of that universal Natural Law which the Torah was later to express in concrete ordinances, which is also identical with the universal law of conscience engraved on the souls of righteous man.

Finally in part 8 you quote the account in Exodus 31:15 and verses 16-17. Sin is defined by Paul as the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death - no question about it. Christ came so that we would not have to die for breaking the law but that we might be saved through His grace. But it does not mean that we break the law, continously. The law points to our weakness. We keep the law because we love Christ. This law is not a shadow of the things to come because the law is binding on us after Christs death also. Covenant Theologians are wrong here. Law will be kept till Christ comes. No question about that.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 4 Jun 2008 3:44:20 AM Close

Dear Sonny,

Instead of writing so much you must first prove that Saturday is 'Sabbath'. My contention is that "Monday" is 'Sabbath' Day. If I am not able to prove Monday is "Sabbath" I will settle for Sunday as Sabbath day unless you prove that 'Saturday' is 'Sabbath'.

Thank you
God bless you.


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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 4 Jun 2008 7:34:11 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

Thank you for the reply. I need a few days because I am pressed for time. Also, I need to read through your postings.

One question; did you explain all these in your former posting?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 4 Jun 2008 8:25:53 AM Close
Dear Sonny,

ALL SCIPTURE IS GIVEN BY THE INSPIRATION OF GOD, hence in order to establish a truth we do not need such long arguments, consider all verses related to the topic and take the passage that is simple and clear and interpret the difficult passages in the light of the verse that is easy to understand.

Moreover Jesus Christ is our example and our Savior so I do not have to be concerned to prove which day is the 7th day Sabbath, we are certain that our calendar is reliable from the time of Jesus.

Consider the following verses:

Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (King James Version)
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Acts 17:29-31 (King James Version)
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 5 Jun 2008 1:04:20 AM Close
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”(Galatians 3:24-26)

After having come to Christ, the relevance of the Law now to us is that it is our old schoolmaster. No doubt, we have learned many things from the Law.

The transition from the Law to Christ took place by the death of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross under the Law. The Law is our guide to Christ. After the many sacrifices, it guided us to Christ and said, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

The resistance to the transition from Law to Christ by human wisdom was patiently dealt with divine wisdom by the Apostles, particularly in the book of Galatians. “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! … to whom be glory for ever. Amen.” (Romans 11:33-36)

The Church has now grown some 2000 years after settling the issues on the Law, Sabbath, Circumcision etc. Her hope is the coming of the Lord and is looking forward. We have no busyness to look backward, to the Law. We run the race forward, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. (Heb 12: 2)

“Remember Lot's wife.” (Luke 17:32)
Many children of God repeat the chorus, “no turning back,…no turn…ing back.”

“..forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” (Philippians 3:13, 14)


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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 6 Jun 2008 8:20:39 PM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

Thank you for your posting regarding the start of the week on a Sunday i.e, evening and morning thus ending the 1st day on a Monday, thus the 7th day becomes a Sunday. I agree that it is a good argument. Let me play the Devils Advocate and say that a better way of counting days may be to start at one's day of birth, thus the 7th day of that person's existence might turn out to be a different day of the week. Unfortunately, this would only bring more confusion when almost every day would be a Sabbath for each person. To avoid all this, the Bible clearly starts with the Genesis account well. God did not have any confusion and so called the days 1st day, 2nd day and so on to the 7th day which he made holy. We read this in Genesis 1 and 2. The same God spoke to Adam and instructed Adam and his descendants the law and so we find that those who were righteous were called good or the patriarchs. They became the people of God. Then at the time of Noah, God destroyed the wicked and continued with a small remnant. Law is again kept by the faithful remnant and the majority again rebel against God. At times when wickedness becomes too great God again destroys.

Finally when the children of Israel are on their journey to Sinai God withholds the pouring of Manna on the Sabbath. Human beings could have forgotten which the 7th day was, but the God who created it did not. We read this in Exodus 16. We can hardly argue which day it was because God Himself was the one who initiated the action to show which day the Sabbath was. From that time to the time of Christ we find that there has always been a faithful few among the Israelites who faithfully kept the Sabbath. When Christ lived as a man, He kept the Sabbath according to the 4th commandment. Again being the Creator, He could not have made a mistake.

Since the time of Christ till now time has been tracked by several groups of people. Moreover, there has always been a remnant through all ages at different places.
-contd 2 to asdpoilkj

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 6 Jun 2008 8:23:30 PM Close
-contd 2 to asdpoilkj

Consider our own state of Kerala. The Nazrani Christians kept the 7th day Sabbath till the persecution by the Portuguese towards the end of the 1500's. Still a faithful few remained. Our forefathers were persecuted and killed for keeping the 7th day Sabbath, approximately 1500 years after the time of Christ. Claudius Buchannan, a bishop of the Church of England, was sent to India to investigate the Goan Inquisition. Buchannan states, in his book, 'Christian Researches in Asia' that there were Armenian Christians who were still worshipping in India on Saturdays instead of Sundays around the year 1800. Keep in mind that Dellon, the Frenchman who wrote about the Goan Inquisition from his actual first hand experience, states that most of those persecuted were neither Jews nor apostate Hindus but were true Christians.

A good book to read about how people throughout the early and middle ages kept the Sabbath is one called 'Truth Triumphant' by B G Wilkinson. You can read it online at:
http://www.godrules.net/library/wilkinson/wilkinson.htm
or in PDF format at: http://www.sabbathtruth.com/history/Truth_Triumphant.pdf

Two other websites to read about the Sabbath truth and the day of worship are:
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/
http://www.thercg.org/books/tsosw.html

A good book to read about the change from Sabbath to Sunday is Samuele Bacchoicchi's 'From Sabbath to Sunday'. Portions of his book can be read on his website: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/

There are hundreds of other websites that document the change from Sabbath to Sunday, most of the interesting ones are those that tell what most major churches say about the change. I would recommend all of them.

There is no question on which day is the Sabbath. The only question for most people is whether we should worship on the 7th day, as God required or on the 1st day as most people do.

It is not a matter of which day we choose but which day God wanted us to keep holy.

- 3

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 6 Jun 2008 8:46:11 PM Close
-3 to asdpoilkj

Notice the wording in Genesis 2:3 "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:" The word sanctified means 'set apart'. God set apart this day for holy use. A day set apart for God and man to meet together. In Exodus 20:8 we read "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy." God made this holy and not man.

Ask yourself a question, can any man make a day holy? Man himself is unholy, then how then can he make a day holy. But that is what the christian church has tried to do. Read online what the Catholic Church claims. {To paraphrase it in my own words} "That by the power vested on it (The Catholic Church) by God, it changed the day from Sabbath to Sunday." This they agree was not by any Biblical mandate but by its own power. I have not read anywhere that God vested power on anybody to change time. But that is what the church claims.

Many years ago, when one of the Mar Thoma Bishops came to our home (I will not name the Bishop) I asked him about the need to keep the Sabbath holy. He replied that it is not on the Bible alone that our faith is based but on the teachings of the fathers, and on the decisions and practices of the church. In the final analysis you will have to decide for yourself whether you will obey a rule / commandment changed by man or a rule / commandment made by God. If your faith is based on the Bible, as the Word of God, then you have to follow the Bible. But if your faith is based on human tradition, teachings of the church fathers, councils of the church, then do that. But in the ultimate analysis, you will have to be the judge of whom you will follow. Like Moses and Joshua claimed, as for me and my household I will obey God rather than man.

May God bless you and guide you.

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 6 Jun 2008 10:40:35 PM Close
Scripture is clear for us NT believers... with or without the roman catholic church.

Colossians 2:16 Let NO MAN therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH DAYS.

Galatians 4:9-10 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS, whereunto ye desire again to be in BONDAGE? Ye observe DAYS, and months, and times, and years.

Those who tell us to observe sabbaths desire us to be under BONDAGE - these are now WEAK AND BEGGARLY ELEMENTS.

In Christ,

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2008 12:45:04 AM Close
AN excellent article “THE SABBATH AND SUNDAY” By Pastor J. Mark Martin can be seen in the following web thread:

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx

Following is an article which exposes the false doctrines of the seventh day Adventist.

“A QUICK INTRODUCTION TO THE 7TH DAY ADVENTISM”

http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Intro/tabid/64/Default.aspx

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2008 5:26:09 AM Close
Dear Sonny,

Unless the day is arrived at quite mathematically that Saturday is ‘Sabbath’ it does not make any sense to give credence to Nazranis, Claudius Buchannan, and many other names that appear in your writing. The days in the Bible are kept by God as mystery. Human perception is not enough to come to figure out specific day. God confused tongues at the tower of Babel in order to see that man does not boast of himself of becoming equal with God. Similarly, God never allowed any pundit until now to figure out any day in the Bible. You struggle your whole life to find out that Saturday is Sabbath, yet you will not be successful. The day-structure, the month-structure, and the year-structure is entirely different from what we are following now. Even if you work so meticulously with the figures from Gregorian calendar, Roman calendar and compare them with the figures given in the Bible based on day by number, day in years and clock,you will not be able to point exactly that Saturday is Sabbath. The beliefs of ‘Seventh day Adventists’ are heretical. As long as they deny the deity of Jesus, I consider them as non-Christians.

Thank you for taking pains to write so much on the need to keep Sabbath holy. It would be interesting if you show the points as to how to keep the Sabbath holy and how do we need to keep the day holy. It was also interesting to note that many so-called Christians, Church elders, etc. kept the Sabbath holy with the conviction that Saturday is ‘Sabbath’. As for me, I am not at all convinced that Sabbath is on Saturday. I still desire to know how you thought Saturday is ‘Sabbath’. It is still is mystery to me. It seems that because traditionally it was accepted Saturday as “Sabbath” or few Church elders thought that Saturday is ‘Sabbath’ you are also convinced that ‘Saturday’ is ‘Sabbath’. Please write down few points as to:

(1) How to keep Sabbath?
(2) What are the requirements that we need to keep Sabbath as Holy?
(3) And, how do you consider ‘Saturday’ as ‘Sabbath’.

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2008 2:23:29 PM Close
asdpoilkj,

Saturday is not mentioned in the Bible, it was the name given the 7th day later on.

God wants us to keep the 7TH DAY HOLY. If you desire to keep all Gods commandments, the burden is on you to do research and find the answer.

As for now the world knows Saturday and the 7th day and Sunday as the 1st day of the week.

Take Jesus Christ as your example in everything even on Sabbath - He said that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it (show us how to properly keep the Law).

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2008 9:42:49 AM Close
Dear all,

Luke 23:54 "That day was the Prepartion, and the Sabbath drew near".

Luke 24:1 "Now on teh first day of the week, very early in the monring, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared"

Mathew 28:1 "Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb."

Dear friends, which day we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus? It is clear from the above sriptures that the Sabbath was in between days of death and resurrection of Jesus, which is Saturday. So there is no doubt that at Jesus's time, the seventh day was on Saturday. It never changed. There is no record of any change also.

Why any one think that Jesus will abolish one of His Commandments out of 10 without any proof?

We can do all good things on Sabbath. The only thing prohibited on Sabbath is working for our daily bread or making anybody work on that day.
There were certain rules God gave only to Israil as soon as they came out of Egypt to deciple them in a short period of time, because they forgot about the Law.

The forth Commandment is the requirement to keep the Sabbath holy.

In Paul's writings, only the general term 'law' is being used. We have to understand them in context to differantiate which one he is talking about. There were Eternal Laws(Ten Commandments), Ceremonial Laws(Sacrificial Laws), Social laws, and health laws given to Israil. If you do not understand them in context, we may be mis lead. That is why Peter is telling it is hard to understand Paul's writings, but it is not different from their teaching also(paraphrasing).

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2008 5:25:00 AM Close

SDA'a are either misguided lot or heretics. There is no doubt about it.

Here are the commandments that they forgot to take cognizance of:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets". (Mt 22:37-40 KJV)

These two commandments that Jesus gave to us contain all the ten commandments.

SDA's have all along been following wrong calculations from worldly genii, who floundered while forming "Gregorian Calendar" by dropping 10 days from the Calendar. These are ten days, not seven days to come to their calculations of arriving at Saturday as Sabbath. Their arch calculators depended on either subracting one day from Sunday or adding one day to Friday, whereas according to Scriptures evening to evening is one day. Saturday morning is still sixth day according to Scriptures. So they have been earning a very good 'mark of the beast' according to their own theology. Misguided lot should come out their mania of keeping seventh day as Holy. They actually do not know how they should keep the seventh day holy. Let them write down clearly how they want seventh day to be kept holy.

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2008 9:03:19 AM Close
asdpoilkj

You got it right but you lack understanding:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets". (Mt 22:37-40 KJV)

These two commandments that Jesus gave to us contain all the ten commandments.

(Mt 22:37-40 KJV) is the essense of the 10 commandments when you keep it right as Jesus taught.

Let Jesus Christ be your example how to keep the Seventh-day Holy. Dropping 10 numbers from the "Gregorian Calendar" did not impact the weekly cycle of 7 days. 7th day was Saturday before and after the 10 day change.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2008 9:25:25 AM Close
Tom Kalappura

Some members want to know HOW TO KEEP THE SABBATH DAY HOLY. You made it quite simple for us:

"We can do all good things on Sabbath. The only thing prohibited on Sabbath is working for our daily bread or making anybody work on that day."

Members could take the MANNA experience as an example. Earn for your bread during the six days, and like Manna, God will provide you a double portion on one of the six days in order to take care or your basic needs for the 7th day on which you will not work.

Bobby Chacko


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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2008 11:14:06 AM Close
Since there are three more topics on the subject I donot want to write any more on this page. Bobby is totally incongruous in all the posts that made on this board until now. Hence, I donot think he deserves any answer. He is totally a misguided person.
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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2008 12:41:01 PM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

You posted that loving God and our neigbhours are enough instead of keeping the Ten Commandments. Yes Jesus said that. But what does it mean? How do you show your love? Is it not through our actions? How can you keep the spirit of the Law without the works of the Law? Let me explain.

Can I make a Statue of Jesus and worship before it because I love Jesus? That is what the Catholics do and say. Can you please tell me what is wrong with that?

Another exapmple, if my father or mother is very sick with terminal cancer or some other disece, and the doctors told that there is no hope and suppose they are bed-ridden.

Can I kill them because I love them and I do not what them to see them suffer?

Can you answer these two questions please. Give me the reasons for your Yes/No also.

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2008 1:27:00 PM Close
contd....

Also regarding the change of days for the Gregorian calander, please check before you write. You can google for 'change of days' or 'gregorian calander' etc. That change never affected the weekly cycle. Only 10 days were dropped from the month of Oct. in 1582.

May God bless you,

Your brother in Christ,

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2008 3:18:25 PM Close
Dear Tom K,

I thought of not writing on this thread any more but because you asked me questions let me answer them.

Scrpture explains Scripture. What is said by Jesus is evident in New Testament itself. There are several verses, but as an answer to your question I will post these verses:

(1) You can not worship idols.

Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. (1Co 10:14 KJV)

(2) You can not kill them:

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (Jas 2:11 KJV)

About the dropping of ten days from the calendar, if you start a new thread I will try to explain to you, that your beliefs are wrong.

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 10 Jun 2008 12:20:14 PM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

"For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (Jas 2:11 KJV)"

I quoted your answer. So you agree if we kill we will be 'a transgressor of the law'. Which Law James is talking about? There is no doubt that he is talking about Ten Commandments. So you agree with me we cannot keep the spirit of the Law without keeping the work of the law.

May I ask you then why do you forget about James 2:10 which says if we break one we break all(paraphrasing)? It is one verse before the one you quoted!!

No doubt that we are all saved by the blood of Jesus. But how a saved christian need to live? Anyway we like? God forbid. It is by keeping the Commandments of God. That is how Jesus is going to sactify us. Most christians forget about this part-sactification. It is also done through our faith in Jesus who is able to do all(Phil 4:13).
Our part is to trust and obey. We keep the fourth commandment also for the same reason.

Your brother in Christ.

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 10 Jun 2008 6:14:42 PM Close
Dear Tom K,

If you will search my posts on this thread and on relevant threads you will notice that I was not against keeping 'Sabbath' in its true essence, but not in Pharisaical and legalistic attitude. Jesus was against Pharisaical and legalistic attitude of enforcing 'Sabbath'. If Jesus was against such an attitude then, it is not apt for me to enforce 'sabbath' on anyone; least on myself. Most of the SDA's are not sure how to keep 'Sabbath'; instead they keep on arguing about keeping 'Sabbath'. If you know something about keeping 'Sabbath' and how to keep 'Sabbath' please write in your next post. If you want to discuss more please open a new thread, because this thread is too lengthy to continue on. SDA's have wrong and false doctrines. For them Jesus is just another angel, or 'a god'. Can you say that Jesus is the only way to salvation? If you have called me brother in Christ, you must have been saved in the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Are you saved? Did you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?

As for me I am born-again Christian and Jesus is my personal Savior. I acknowledge that Jesus is the only Way for salvation and He paid all the penalty for me on the Cross. I do not need to do anything except confessing my sins to Him. Can you really say that or did you want to attach any conditions for your salvation?

Your brother in Christ

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jun 2008 12:32:59 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-1

You wrote, “The Word of God clearly shows that the 7th day was made holy so question you on why the 1st day is holy, and am inquiring if that is Biblical or by tradition.” --- The Bible do not say that the first day of the week is holy. It just tells that the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first day of the week. It also tells us that it was the day the lord rose from the dead as the first fruit from among the dead. It also tells us that on that day the risen Lord appeared to His disciples more than once. He chose that day and not the Sabbath. There is the approval of the Holy Spirit for the first day of the week for us to gather to remember the Lord’s death, on the day of His resurrection. We are remembering the broken body and the shed blood of our risen Lord Jesus Christ, and not as dead and buried in the tomb, on His day of resurrection. On the Sabbath, He was in the tomb.

If you take out one verse, Exodus 20:8, from its context, you may say that I was misquoting you. I was not misquoting you. I was explaining the fourth commandment in its context. In order to do that we should consider Exodus 20:8-11, together. The verses 9 through 11 are the explanation of how the Sabbath Day could be kept holy by the children of Israel. It is by resting as God did and we read about it in Genesis 2. Another relevant portion in connection with the giving of the Ten Commandment is Exodus 31:12-18. There, we read about the punishment to those who refuse to keep it holy. In Numbers 15:32-36, we read about a person who violated the Sabbath and he was stoned, outside the camp. If any Christian thinks that a particular day is to be kept holy, as Sabbath, then the required punishment should be meted out to those who violate the holiness of that Sabbath Day. That means, no one should do any manual labor, including picking up a thing to nourish the body.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jun 2008 12:34:04 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-2

We read in Colossians 2:16-17, “Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or Sabbaths, which are shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.” These two verses go together as one sentence. Let us consider them, that way. In KJV, the translators added the word “days” to Sabbaths. Verse 17 tells us that the list of things in verse 16 are shadows of things to come and that was the body of Christ. If we consider the actual body of Christ that was broken for us, then we know that broken body was in the tomb on the Sabbath of the Passover and the Seventh-Day of the week. If we remember the death of the Lord on the Seventh-Day of the week, then we are remembering a dead person. If we remember the death of the Lord, the broken body and the shed blood, on the first day of the week, then we are remembering a risen and ascended Lord with the anticipation of looking forward to His call to receive us to be with Him, as he promised in John 14.

If the shadow of good things to come is the body of Christ, then the Assembly is called the body of Christ on this earth united to its glorified Head in heaven. We are told to be holy, as He is holy. It is not a day that is to be holy, but it is the body that is to be holy. It was shown in a shadow in the Old Testament. The one who refused to keep that shadow holy had no right to live. He was to be stoned, outside the camp. We are asked in 1 Corinthians 11 to examine the manner in which we partake of the Lord ’s Supper. It was on the first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:2). Please remember that we are not to keep any day holy. On the contrary, if any wants to keep it holy, we are not to object to it. That is what we are told in Colossians 2:16-17.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jun 2008 12:35:16 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-3

You asked, “At the end of part 4 you state: ‘Could you tell me where James wrote about synagogue as a place of worship?’ Where have I stated this? Please show.” --- The following is my answer. On 23 May 2008 6:20:18 PM you wrote, “In Jamesnagogue us used to designate the worshipping, assembly of the Jewish Christians.
(1) Of a Jewish assembly or congregation, held in the synagogues for prayer, reading the Scriptures, and with certain judicial powers.
(2) Metonymically of a Jewish place of worship, a synagogue, house of assembly…” --- Preaching, ng, speacking, reading, reasoning, etc. are not said to be part of worship. Praising and prayer are parts of worship, but they by themselves are not worship. To understand this, we have to study about worship from the Word of God. I started a thread for this purpose and no one wants to study, but all wants to make worship what it is not. Only after the days of reformation, corporate worship became preaching and singing. Before that, it included remembering the Lord’s death as he commanded us to do.

You asked, “Starting from Genesis 2:2,3 to Revelation 22:14 you can see that keeping the commandments / sabbath holy is a requirement for all. So please show where this is not a commandment for Christians.” --- We see the answer in Colossians 2:16-17.

I think that I have mentioned about the first day of the week in connection with 1 Corinthians 11, before. We read about the exact day in 1 Corinthians 16:2. If we read the 16:1, we will realize that Apostle Paul also asked the Christians in Galatia to do the same on the first day of the week. What was set aside should be brought to the Assembly gathering, so that there is no special collection to be taken when the Apostle comes to them. There is no mention of the Sabbath, but the first day of the week is mentioned.

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jun 2008 12:36:28 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-4

It is a fact that the Jews began to gather together in the Synagogue to continue the tradition that they started during the Babylonian captivity. Do we read in the Old Testament that the Sabbath as the day of worship? The children of Israel were asked to keep it holy. Before Moses (Exodus 16), no one was asked to do so. The nature of holiness was that no should be doing manual labor. In the Law, do we read that Sabbath as the day of worship? I know, I asked this before. When we quote one verse, we should consider other verses that may shed a different light. In 2 Timothy 2:15, we are asked to cut the word of truth in a straight line. After that, we are told about the purpose and value of the God-breathed (inspired) Scripture in 2 Timothy 3:15-16.

We should remember that Adam had only one command to keep. It did not include keeping the Sabbath. Without a verse from the Scriptures, we should not be establishing what we want to, as a teaching or a doctrine. God has revealed all that we need to know and follow. This we read in 2 Timothy 3:15-16.

In the Old Testament the Hebrew word, CHATAH is used to indicate sin offering as well as sin. If we use “sin-offering” in genesis 4:7, could you see the gospel to the one who replaced the mode of sacrifice to approach God. That mode of sacrifice was shown to Adam and the Woman on the day they rebelled against God. There was a sacrifice. God asked Cain, “If you do not well, sin-offering lies at the door.”

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jun 2008 12:37:07 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-5

Rebellion against God was declared as sin to Adam. It still remains in the same status. That is the only law that was given to Adam. When he rebelled against that command, death reigned from Adam till Moses. We read this in Romans. Wickedness is the product of sin in man. Death was already his share.

The law tells what we should or should not do with the consequences of violating it.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 12 Jun 2008 2:10:03 PM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

I keep the Commadments only because I am saved. The bible is clear that we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and that Jesus is God.

If you do not have any problem in keeping the Sabbath, then you should keep it on the Seventh day. As I said in my earlier posting, you cannot keep the spirit of the law without the work of the law. The only thing God told us not to do on Sabbath is working for our daily bread and also do not make anyone else work for thier daily lives. Kidling fire and all were told to the Israil so that they will be deciplned in a short period of time. Another exaple is the 'eye for eye' rules etc.

As I said earlier, Sabbath commandment is the only Commandment to show that we trust in the Lord for our daily bread. That is why it is given it as a seal on the forehead and on right hand.

Now the question is to whom you are obeying, to God or the the beast who claims to have the power to change God's Laws. If you obey God, you should keep the Sabbath on the seventh day, which is Saturday. Are you willing to do that?

Yours in Christ.

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : johnwilliams   View Profile   Since : 12 Jun 2008 2:42:55 PM Close
I am coming here after sometime and find it surprising to see so many heretical teachings from the SDA cult group.

"As I said earlier, Sabbath commandment is the only Commandment to show that we trust in the Lord for our daily bread. That is why it is given it as a seal on the forehead and on right hand."

Yes, this is all of your saying... not what the Bible says. Sabbath is the "seal on the forehead and on right hand"? Where do these teachings come from I wonder. Not from the Bible. Isn't it from that false prophet Ellen G White who started with the failure of the Lord's second coming in 18 century?

Jesus Christ already warned us of such false prophets...and here we have some people spreading these false teachings.

Saying
1. Jesus Christ is an angel
2. Jesus Christ is "One of the chief princes" therefore denying his diety
3. Salvation through obediance of Law
4. Sabbath as a sign on forehead and hand
5. Ellen G White who made false prophecies is a prophet
6. Animals have a spirit
7. There is no everlasting punishment for the unsaved.

Let us mark these people who teach these cultic matters denying the scriptures.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 12 Jun 2008 3:21:52 PM Close
Dear Tom K,

There is no point of making many circles round the same area and reaching the base point once again, to start afresh a new circle again on the same points. You have already had enough of discussion on this 'Sabbath' point here. I want to read from you:

(1) where does the Scripture say that Jesus has observed 'Sabbath'.

(2) Did He or Did He not take objection to keeping 'Sabbath' in Pharisaical and legalistic way.

Please answer my second point very clearly instead of making lot of circles.

I know all the doctrines that SDA have in their baggage. It is not just keeping 'Sabbath'; but their doctrines range from the assumption that it is an inevitable command that we should keep 'Sabbath' which in your thought is 'Saturday'. This 'Saturday' is found out by some man like you and me. SDA's false teachings range from keeping 'Sabbath' to many more, ultimately attributing man made works to receving Salvation.

You should be able to prove that 'Saturday' is 'Sabbath', not based on some Tom, Dick, and Harry's work-outs on figures.

Can a person worship on 'Sabbath'-day? It is necessary to go to heaven?

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 12 Jun 2008 6:14:34 PM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

Thank you for your response dated June 7. You stated that unless the day is arrived at quite mathematically that Saturday is Sabbath, it does not make any sense to give credence to Nazranis. My forefathers, maybe yours too, were Nazrani's and they kept the seventh day holy as required by the Bible. There is no mathematical formula for this. Its a simple use of the calendar. Using your same argument, how can you mathematically arrive at 1st day or Sunday being the Sabbath? Also please show me how the days of the week were lost in any calendar system. If you check the change from Julian calender to Gregorian calendar you will notice that the change occurred only on the date not on the weekday. Thus in the year CE 1582 Pope Gregory ordered that the day following Thursday, October 4, 1582 be Friday, October 15 1582. Most countries adopted this change at different time. This had nothing to do with the weekly 7 day cycle that has been followed since creation. The Julian calendar is still in use in some countries like Russia but the weekday remains the same.

The Jewish Calender has been following the 7 day cycle for the last 5769 years and the 7 day cycle has been tracked for all those years. Christ lived in this period, approximately 2000 years ago and as the creator knew which day was the 7th day. The Bible says that as His custom was, He went to the synagogue on the sabbath day.

My point in starting this thread is to simply question the veracity of keeping the 1st day (Sunday) holy as opposed to keeping the 7th day (Saturday) holy, as required in the Bible. We don't have to see who keeps what day holy. Our question should be what does the Bible state.

As to your question regarding loss of days, please show me where you read that days of the week were lost such that we cannot determine which day is the 7th day and which day is the 1st day of the week. Use your own arguments to arrive at the conclusion, but please share it with us.

contd 2 to asdpoilkj

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 12 Jun 2008 6:54:23 PM Close
contd 2 to asdpoilkj,

I would like to also show you the Hindu and Islamic Calendar systems. The Hindu calendar system is approximatley 5109 years old and they too have followed a 7 day cycle. The 7 days of the week have been properly tracked for all these years. The current names of the days are Ravi, Soma, Mangala, Budha, Guru, Shukra, Shani with the addition of the word vasara or vara added to each of those names. This 7 day cycle has been accurate for those 5109 years.

The Islamic calendar is the newest of all calendars. The days are similar to the Hebrew days with the 1st day to 5th day being called thus (1st day, 2nd day and so on) and the 6th day being called the gathering day and the 7th day still being called sabbath. In the arabic it is called yaum al-ahad for 1st day, yaum al-ithnayn for 2nd day, yaum ath-thulaathaa for 3rd day, yaum al-arbia'aa for 4th, yaum al-khamis for 5th, yaum al-jumu`a for 6th day and yaum as-sabt for 7th day. In persian it is Yek-Shanbeh, Do-Shanbeh, Seh-Shanbeh, Chahar-Shanbeh, Panj-Shanbeh for days 1-5 (meaning one after Sabbath, Two after Sabbath till 5 after sabbath) and Jom'eh for Friday and Shanbeh for Sabbath or 7th day.

The point is that even for these non-christians, the 7 day weekly cycle has been preseved from the begining of their religion and time tracking systems. To argue that the day has been lost or that the days of the week are a mystery is not a good one.

Our faith is based on the Bible and the Bible alone. We do not base it on any person, denomination or other religion but simply on the Word of God. Can you base your findings on God's Word.

The reason I stated about Buchanan, Geddes and the Nazrani history is to show what my forefathers did. They did not have any doubts on what was contained in the word of God. We should not either. The only reason they changed is because they were forced to, and these authors show how.

Please study to show thyself approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 2:05:51 AM Close
Dear Sonny,

I was wondering why you SDAs are so legalistic about observing Saturday as Sabbath. My two questions raised before are still not answered. The point that we need to think is that six days God worked on creation and on seventh day He rested. Let us also take rest on one day after six days. Not be legalistic to take rest on 'Saturday'.

Let me reiterate those questions again.

(1) where does the Scripture say that Jesus has observed 'Sabbath'?

(2) Did He or Did He not take objection to keeping 'Sabbath' in Pharisaical and legalistic way?

Please answer my second point very clearly instead of making lot of circles. What do you mean by keeping the ‘Sabbath’ holy? Please define and explain very clearly instead beating around the bush. Can a person worship on 'Sabbath'-day? Does keeping ‘Sabbath’ Holy include Worship or only taking rest? Please, please define these before you focus on the days.

Now, to write more on this point – please remember that Jewish calendar day does not begin at midnight, but it begins at Sunset. Sunset marks the landmark to define the beginning of the day with twelve hours and Sunrise marks the start of another twelve hour-period. Day hours may be longer than the night hours depending upon the seasons.

Jesus was Jew, so let us depend upon Jewish calendar. Jewish calendar has two important dates:

1 Tishri, was the day of celebration
of the creation of the world and it marks the start of a new calendar year.

1 Nisan: This is the start of the religious year. Nisan is considered the first month, but it occurs 6 or 7 months after the start of the calendar year.

This causes the new year to start on a Sunday, Wednesday, or Friday, delay it by one day. The Julian calendar already by then introduced an error of 1 day in every 128 years. The dates of calculating ‘Good Friday’, ‘Easter’, ‘Christmas' were inaccurate, and no pundit could calculate these days accurately until now.

contd...2

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 2:21:39 AM Close
(2)

Julius Caesar in 45 B.C.E., made 1 January the start of the year. Italy and England, however, did not make 1 January official until around 1750. Due to of lack leap years Julian calendar had another blunder in it with eleven days ahead of earth’s actual position. How can you say that the seven-day cycle never got disrupted with these errors occurring? In addition there were several additions exceptions with the greatest blunder ever happened on earth when few days were dropped in September 1572 AD to bring calendar back to match earth’s position. How can you say that seven-day cycle was not interrupted? You do not know actually whether you are observing ‘Sabbath’ on Thursday or Monday. You are following man-made calendar.

September 1572 AD

Su M Tu W Th F Sa
-- -- 1 2 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30

Let us assign week days to the days if they were to be in sequence:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
SU M T W TH F S SU M T W TH F S SU M

See the difference. According to Gregorian Calendar 14th September was Thursday but in fact it should have been Saturday. 16th September was Saturday, but in fact it should have been Monday. So, you missed your legalistic position there! Why should you assign week days to serial numbers; it should be otherway round. Assign serial numbers to week days. Who named the weekdays; is it God or man? Did the Scriptures define weekdays? If you want to follow man's definitions keep assigning 'Saturday' always to 'sabbath' but if you want to obey the Scriptures please show from the Scriptures where does it say that 'Saturday' is 'Sabbath'. According the Scriptures evening and day are one day. The Span between the two days is one day. Be legalistic!

{This board is not accepting formatting in spite of trying three times. It shows 14th between Thursday and Friday; so this board is forcing to observe 'Sabbath' at midnight of 14/15th. )

Contd...3

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 2:31:38 AM Close
(3)

If you are not legalistic you may observe 'Sabbath' on the midnight of Thursday. Don't you think, Sonny, Tom K, and bchacko that you should find another place to fool Christians with staunch faith in Jesus Christ?

In international standard ISO-8601 the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) has decreed that Monday shall be the first day of the week.

If you consider the names of the days according to the names of the planets it will be like this:

Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, Sun
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

So, now Sunday is the seventh day, Please keep ‘sabbath’ on Sunday.

Please follow the law God has given to take rest on seventh day after working for six days. When does your work-day start? Are you in Gulf country? If it starts on Saturday, for you the first day is Saturday and the seventh day is Friday. I am not in Gulf Country. For me the work-day starts on Monday and seventh day for me is Sunday. According to Scriptures Saturday evening and Monday morning are still seventh day. I am following the law. If you take rest on Saturday you are taking rest on Sixth day and violating the law. Please take rest on 'Sunday'. If you take rest on sixth day, which is Saturday, you will get 'mark of the beast' but I am going to get 'the seal of God'.


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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 4:00:16 PM Close
Dear brother asdpoilkj,

I am giving below the answers to your two questions:-

1.a) Luke 4:16 "So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on Sabbath day and stood up to read".
From the above verse, it is clear Jesus kept the Sabbth.

b) Luke 23:56 "Then they retured and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the Commandment.

Even Jesus's deciples(their teachings were direct from Jesus) kept the Sabbath. Remember, Luke wrote this 30/40 years after Jesus's resurrection.
If we were not required to keep the Sabbath after resurrection, Luke will not write like this.

2. Please do not mix up the Sabbath Commandment with the way Jewish people observed it. Jesus never rejected the Sabbath commandment, but He showed the Jewish nation the correct way of keeping it(by doing good on that day).

As I mentioned in my earlier postings, the only thing God told us not to do on the Sabbeth is working for our daily bread and making someone work also(Exd 20:8-11). Yes, we also do not need to keep teh Sabbath in the leagalestic way, but we can take Christ as our example.

Your brother in Chirst,

Tom kalappura

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 4:30:12 PM Close
Dear brother Johnwilliams,

If you read Acts 5:29-40, you shall understand that some people called the first chirstians cult!!

Talking about Ten Commandments Deut.6:8 says "you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes". Out of the Ten Commandments which is the real sign? Ezk.20:12 "Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sancitifies them".
Ezk 20:20 "Hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you that you may know that I am the Lord your God".

Please read Exod 31:12-18 also.

Your brother in Christ,

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 6:47:35 PM Close
General note:

Please read the following sentence in my post (3) today at 2.31 AM

"According to Scriptures Saturday evening and Monday morning are still seventh day."

as

"According to Scriptures Saturday evening and Sunday morning would be seventh day with legalistic approash that SDA's have been seeking".


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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 6:53:20 PM Close
Dear Tom K,

Let me quote a line or two from the first para of my post this morning.

"The point that we need to think is that six days God worked on creation and on seventh day He rested. Let us also take rest on one day after six days. Not be legalistic to take rest on 'Saturday'. "

SDAs have been confusing Christians with compulsary observance of 'Sabbath' on 'Saturday'. First of all the week day, 'Saturday' is not mentioned in the Bible. Secondly God didnot take rest on Sabbath-day.

Please read this verse and get to the core of the meaning.

"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made". (Ge 2:2
KJV)

Where in the above verse God said He rested on 'Sabbath' day? The meaning of that verse is very clear that God rested on the seventh day. That is to say He worked on creation for six days and on the seventh day He rested. He never rested on 'Sabbath-day' nor did Jesus observe 'Sabbath' on Saturday. Jesus went to synagogue on 'Sabbath'-day. True, but that was not on 'Saturday' It is absolutely not possible for anyone to establish that Jesus went to synagogue on 'Saturday'. Men with their feeble knowledge erred several times just as babes struggle to swim. They finally guessed seven names in a week and named them as they pleased. They erred time and again. They tried to surpass the knowledge of God, and tried to confound the wisdom of God. Their thoughts were similar to those of the thoughts of emulating God at the tower of Babel. They are similar to the so-called scientists, who made inroads to moon, but did nothing but admire the creation and God. Those few believed that it is not God, who regulates the moments of planets, but it is the solar gods, who regulate the seven day week. They CREATED these week days and rested in their graves.

If your work-day starts on Tuesday, please consider it as the first day and take rest on the seventh day, which will be Monday. Worship has nothing to do with 'Rest'.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 6:57:40 PM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

Thank you for your 3 part post. Your arguments are quite clever but not biblical, logical, mathematical or scientific. Just a clever arrangement of words. Please refer to the historical documents, the websites on change of Julian to Gregorian Calendar, the Catholic Encyclopedia and you will realize that till today not a single day of the week has been changed because of the calendar change in any country. Keep in mind that Russia still follows the Julian Calendar. Saturday in Russia is not Sunday in India. Shanivasara or Shanivar in the Hindu calendar is the same as Saturday in the Gregorian calendar. Please revise your arguments. A good site for you to read is: http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/calendar.html
Please read about 'Has the Calendar been changed' and form a better informed opinion.

Please again refer to the Bible and see that Christ kept the sabbath holy. Luke 4:16 states "...and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Keep in mind that Luke's gospel must have been one of the later of the 4 gospels to be written, because Luke was Paul's companion. Please note what Luke writes: "as His custom was" meaning that it was Jesus custom to go to the synagogue on the sabbath. Jesus as Creator of the days did not make a mistake on not knowing which day was the seventh day.

I am not following SDA arguments here but only scriptural arguments. I do not have to worry about what the SDA arguments are and my statements have only scriptural basis. All this time I thought that you were the one bringing up SDA arguments here.

In the last post when you state that "According to Scriptures Sunday evening and Monday morning are still seventh day" which scripture are you referring to? Please show us where you read it.

In my next post to you I will show you Jesus objection to keeping 'Sabbath' in Pharisaical and legalistic way? To answer your question, Yes Jesus did object to the Pharasaical way of keeping the sabbath.

contd-2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 7:26:14 PM Close
contd-2 to asdpoilkj,

At the time of Jesus there were 2 primary groups of Pharisees. Those of the school of Shammai Hillel. Shammai's were extremely strict while Hillel was a more liberal group. After the Maccabean revolt the Pharisees came into prominence by creating more and more interpretations and rules on the law of Moses and on the law of God. Some of these were regarding the sabbath. There were approximately 66 acts prohibited on the sabbath, according to the shammai theologians and most theologians of the hillel school and the saducees believed that there were approximately 36 acts prohibited.

In Matthew 12, Mark 2 and Luke 6 we read that Jesus and his disciples were walking through the fields of corn and the disciples were hungry. Now Jewish law permitted those who were hungry to pluck grain or fruit to satisfy their hunger. The disciples here plucked corn and ate it to satisfy their hunger. The Pharisees found fault with this because according to their interpretation the disciples were involved in selecting (deciding which ear to pick), harvesting/reaping (plucking), threshing and winnowing (removing the covering), sifting (throwing the leaves), grinding (eating the uncooked corn). All this while they themselves had a sabbath meal at their own homes. The intent of the sabbath was to worship God and to do good. Not to make it a burden but a day of joy. If you look at the Nazrani history, sabbath was a day a good meal was enjoyed with friends and family, a day when people wore their best clothes, both acts prohibited by the Synod of Diamper. Nazarani Christians also spent an extra portion of their time in reading and studying the word of God on the Sabbath, an activity that Jesus did and most Jewish people did. Pharisees had pity for an animal that fell into a pit on the sabbath and rescued it but objected to Jesus healing someone on the sabbath.

contd -3

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 7:46:52 PM Close
contd -3 to asdpoilkj,

Similarly Pharisees followed circumcision rites on the sabbath if the child was born 8 days earlier, but objected to Jesus performing acts of healing to people who were suffering for many years. The Pharisees had their priorities reversed on the keeping of the law. Ther laws made it a burden to follow any law, all the while they did not really keep the law, but just the interpretations they made. However, if you note the words of Christ you will find that He only stated that Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. As the giver of the law, He knew what the intent of the law was. However, at no point did He state that the law had been changed. In Matthew 5:20 Jesus said: "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." Not an outward show of pious law keeping but an inward change.

The christian life is similar too. We need an inward change within ourself. A daily born again experience and a change that is manifested in our daily life. It is only with the help of the Holy Spirit that we can accomplish this. Let us not be like the Pharisees that kept the letter of the law but Christians who keep the spirit of the law. In 1 John 2: vs 2-5 we read that He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We know that we have come to know Him if we obey his commands. The man who says I know him but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. (Paraphrased from NIV in my own words).

So my dear brother, I would admonish you to study the scriptures to know God better. Be a light to the world and let it shine brightly at all times.

Christian regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2008 7:51:51 PM Close
Dear Dr Koshy,

Thank you for your response. I will respond to you next week since I have some other pressing engagement for the next several days. May God keep watch over each of us at all times.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 14 Jun 2008 3:23:43 AM Close
Dear Sonny,

You are wasting your time and my time here. God never took rest on Saturday. Jesus never attended Synagogue on Saturday. That is plain and clear. Seventh day does not mean 'Saturday' Nowhere it is mentioned in the Scriptures. You have learnt the trickery of the Old Dragon that cheated Eve.

Few points to note: Roman year never started with January. It started with March.

Jews adopted seven day week from the Babylonians.
The seventh-day Sabbath command got associated to Saturday only from then onward. It was Romans, who associated a cycle of seven days with the Sun, the Moon, and the five known planets. Only from then the names got attached to the days. Hebrew calendar consists of seven days beginning with Saturday as the First day.

When does the Sabbath-day start according to you? Is it from midnight or at 6 AM? What activities do you do on Saturday. ENUMERATE THEM HERE. YES. ENUMERATE YOUR ACTIVITIES ON SABBATH HERE. Do you sleep all the day on Saturday or do you do any work? Before you enumerate your work on Saturday do not write to me any more arguing about Saturday as Sabbath; stop if not.

"Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". (Ex 31:14-17 KJV)

Remember about the punishment that you will have if you have violated Sabbath command as shown in the above verses. What works are good and what are bad according to you. Write them down instead of brain-washing.

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 14 Jun 2008 4:38:37 PM Close
Dear brother asdpoilkj,

It looks like you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Let us use this form to learn each other, instead of arguing. I like to debate for the sake of learning, but not arguing.

If you want to know, in the 4th Commandment(Exodus 20:11) God makes it clear 7th day is the Sabbath day and that is the only day God blessed and hallowed.

"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, AND RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY. THEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY AND HALLOWED IT"(EPHASIS ADDED).

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 14 Jun 2008 5:19:04 PM Close
Dear Tom K,

I wrote time and again that I honor Sabbath and it is necessary to honor sabbath just as God did. But, I am against defining 'Saturday' as 'Sabbath' because in the days when Israelites journeyed from Egypt to Canaan these week days were not there. They depended on months like Abib, (Nisan). Several times earth's position changed and man made mistakes in assinging the days to the calendars. God said to keep Sabbath on the seventh day, no doubt, but it can never be assigned to Saturday. I wrote earlier also that if you can not prove that Saturday is the seventh day, I will settle for Sunday as my Sabbath day. I do not like to argue with any body on this issue any more. Let me quote few lines from great commentator Matthew Henry, who wrote this way about Sabbath:

"Though it is commonly taken for granted that the Christian sabbath we observe, reckoning from the creation, is not the seventh but the first day of the week, yet being a seventh day, and we in it, celebrating the rest of God the Son, and the finishing of the work of our redemption, we may and ought to act faith upon this original institution of the sabbath day, and to commemorate the work of creation, to the honour of the great Creator, who is therefore worthy to receive, on that day, blessing, and honour, and praise, from all religious assemblies."

According to Scriptures evening to evening is one day. Therefore, Sunday morning is still seventh day, if your assignment as Saturday as the seventh day is right. Saturday morning is sixth day, for sure then. The legalistic approach you three (bchacko, Sonny and you) are taking is not right. More than the observance of Sabbath the doctrines of 'Seventh day Adventists' are certainly that of Anti-Christ. If you are not SDA I am your brother in Christ, otherwise I have no part with you. Once Jehovah Witnesses visited my home and gave a book. I asked them to get out of my way. I am not going to be so rude to you, because you called me brother in Christ.

Thanks
Your brother in Christ

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2008 12:35:56 PM Close
Dear brother asdpoilkj,

You may have to clarify couple things to me.You wrote when Jewish nation travelled from Egypt to Canaan, they did not follow the week days, but they were following Jewish monthly calander. Can you please clarify to me how can one follow a monthly calander without following a weekly calander. Since a week is smaller than a month, naturally one has to follow a day, a week and then only follow a month.

You wrote since a biblical day start with evening to evening(I agree with you also in this), Sunday moring is seveth day. Can you prove from the Bible this? Instead I fing that Suday morning is First day. Do you agree with me Jesus Christ was resurrected on Sunday mornign? Luke 24:1 says that "Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared"
Verse 2 "but they found the stone rolled away from the tomb."

Please read the Mathew's accont of Jesus's resurrection, it is clear He was resurrected on morning of the first day of the week. So are you telling me that Jesus resurrected on Sabbath(the seventh day)?

You wrote that "Once Jehovah Witnesses visited my home and gave a book. I asked them to get out of my way. I am not going to be so rude to you, because you called me brother in Christ."

Can I ask you a question, as a true christian, are we not supposed to love even our enemies? There is no point in calling ourselves christian, if we do not follow what Christ told us to do.

Finally, I do not want to hide my identity, I am and I am proud to be a Seveth Day Adventist Christian. If you do not want to talk to me that is upto you, but I still like to talk to you as long as it is not just argument sake. When Mormans or Jahowa witnesses come to my home I always welcome them, try to teach them from the Bible.

Your brother in Christ,
Tom Kalappura


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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2008 1:37:58 PM Close
Dear Tom K,

I can love my enemies, but not those, who deny the deity of Jesus Christ. They can be just be my friends as some one at my work place. SDAs deny the deity of Jesus Christ. According them The Father in heaven is only God and none is equal to them. The Son, Jesus Christ, according to them, is a man and not equal to the Father in heaven. If I am wrong in knowing about SDAs on this doctrine, please let me know I will change my opinion. As long as they deny the deity of Jesus Christ, I do not love them. I am proud to say that I go to Baptist Church, where The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are considered as Trinity and One.

Now coming to the point of clarifications you sought, Israelites did not have our week days nor our months, or year. They had thirteen months. Nisan, Iyer, Sivan, Tammuz, AV, Elul, Tishri, Cheshvan, Kislev, Tevet, Shevat, Adar I and Adar II. The Biblical way of counting is the day of the first moon after the crops of barley in Israel ripen, which is 'Abib' and it also denotes the beginning of the Jewish calendar starting "Nisan". The LORD provided feast system symbolically and prophetically to make man understand his plan of salvation for man. The Sunset is the beginning of the day with twelve hours, and Sunrise marks another twelve-hour-period. Can you show me in the Bible what time the resurrection took place? Is it 6 AM as you think? If you think that way, you are wrong. Please read this verse very carefully.

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. (Matthew 28:1)

Did anywhere in the above verse specify the time? The dawn simply means as the first day approached. It was Sabbath past then. Nowhere in the bible Sabbath hours are given and the resurrection time is given. Please do not calculate any thing based on our clocks. Depend on Biblical way of calculating. It was just at the time of sunrise that the Resurrection of Jesus took place.

Contd...2

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2008 4:21:38 PM Close
(2)

Sonny quoted a link for me to look at the way the calendar is. I looked at that today. The site was so poorly built one and it is from those, who are SDA believers, who say weekly cycle never changed. Instead of showing something on which SDA beliefs are built he showed to me a site that was built on SDAs beliefs.

I take the gist of the calendar from "American Tract Society Dictionary"

Observance of feasts:

The first day of the month of "Abib" (Nisan) is the day, which denotes the ripening stage of the barley and thereafter the seasons and Jewish festivals are as follows:

Passover: Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Iyer: This is the second month in the Jewish Calendar that has 29 days

Sivan This is the third month that has 30 days

Coming to the point of counting the days of Passover feast, Wave sheaf feast and Pentecost, it is as follows:

14th day of Nisan is Passover. This corresponds to Thursday night and Friday Morning 15th day of Nisan is Saturday and 16th day of Nisan is Sunday of present Gregorian calendar. It is, therefore, right to conclude that on the Passover day i.e. on the 14th day Nisan Jesus was crucified and on the 16th day of Nisan was Resurrection day of Jesus.

According to Bible a 'week' could be seven years. Please read this verse.

Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years. (Genesis 29:27)

Fulfilling Leah's week denotes a week of feasting. According to the custom of weddings, Rachel would be given to Jacob, on condition of Jacob serving Laban for seven years more.

Few more verses:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Da 9:25 KJV)

Contd...3

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2008 4:27:01 PM Close
(3)

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Da 9:25 KJV)

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Da 9:25 KJV)

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Da 9:27 KJV)

Please clarify based on these verses when is the Saturday? Now it is upto you to prove that Sabbath falls on Saturday. Please go ahead and show me how Sabbath falls on Saturday. Please also show why SDAs attend Church service on Saturday morning just in rebellion to that of attending Church Service on Sunday.

Does 'Sabbath' mean attending Church on Saturday and ignoring Sunday? or Does 'Sabbath' mean worship? If you cannot prove the hours of Sabbath, please be mindful of the punishment under the law, which you are insisting on us to follow.

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2008 10:48:57 PM Close
Dear brother asdpoilkj,

According to your calculation, can you please tell me what day of the week Jesus died and what day He resurrected?

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2008 1:03:33 AM Close
Dear Tom K,

Please do not try to get an easy answer and show that Saturday is before Sunday and hence Saturday is Sabbath. Please work out and show me that Saturday is Sabbath. I am trying to show the Pharisaical and legalistic attitude of SDAs and their false doctrines.

According to Scriptures:

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. (Ge 2:2 KJV)

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Ge 1:5 KJV)

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40)

14th Nisan was the day when Jesus was Crucified according to my calculation. His resurrection was "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week".

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. (Matthew 28:1)

He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. (Matthew 28:6)

Now it is up to you to show 'Saturday' is 'Sabbath' and escape from 'death' punishment under the law as written in:

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 31:15)

You want to be still in the bondage of law even after Christ redeemed us from that bondage.
Also, according to your doctrine you should escape from getting the 'mark of the beast'. That is the legalistic position you have. So, please work out and show me that Saturday is Sabbath, and the numbers of hours that constitute to be in Saturday are the right amount of the hours that are in Saturday that you follow. Remember, if you have not followed Sabbath law according to the law that you hold on to, you are liable for ‘death’ and get the ‘mark of the beast’.

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Reply by : tomkalappura   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2008 5:09:13 PM Close
Dear brother asdpoilkj,

I am sorry that I forgot to answer one of your questions you asked on June 15th. I do believe Jesus is 100% human and God. I think, this answers your question.

Regarding the Sabbath, I want to tell you this, I can wake up anyone who is sleeping, but it is very hard to wake up someone who is pretenting to be sleeping.

Accordig to the Bible, it is clear that the seventh day Sabbath is on a day in between the day Jesus was crucified and the day Jesus was resurrected. You know it also what day it is.

If by keeping the Ten Commandments, I would be in bondage, I would like to be in bondage, Yes, as a slave to Jesus Christ.

I do not want to talk to you anymore about this subject, but I shall pray for you.

Your brother in Christ,

Tom Kalappura

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2008 3:49:06 AM Close

Dear Tom K,

May God help you to understand the Scriptures well. We are all under the bondage under Christ, as His Children, whom he loves, and corrects, but we are no more under the Old Testament law. If you opt to be under Old Testament Law, the Lord may grant you, your heart's desire, in which case, you may have to offer sin-offering, instead of plain confession that you can make to Jesus, in case you saw a lady and lusted after her. Jesus made things easy for us to confess and be His children but you prefer to undergo a strenuous process, yet not a perfect process, for your sins to be forgiven. SDA believes Jesus is God, but they still say, Jesus was tempted like man; and Jesus is 'Michael, the arch angel'.

I know the Jesus was crucified and was raised the third day. There is difference between, the 'day' that God spoke of in creation days, the 'day' as understood by Jews, and the 'day'
we follow. You are taking target day as 'Sunday' and working backwards. If you do that the crucifixion 'day' may not be Friday, it may work out as Wednesday night. Please understand properly the 'day' as defined in the Scriptures. It is not the 'Saturday' as you think. First day does not mean 'Sunday' What if, First day is 'Monday'. then according to you, 'Sunday' is 'Sabbath'. Sunday is holiday, and many Christians are gathering for worship on Sunday. Did Apostles gather to break the bread on 'Sunday' or 'Saturday'? All the Scripture says is that they broke the bread on the first day'.

Thanks for your interaction with me.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2008 6:18:41 PM Close
Dear Dr Koshy,

Thank you for the post of June 11. Sorry again for not being able to reply immediately to your post on June 11. You did bring out some very important and pertinent points. I would like to comment on some of them. You stated that the Bible does not state anywhere that the 1st day of the week is holy. Yet the Bible does state that God made the 7th day holy in both Genesis 2:2,3 and in Exodus 20:8-11. So the 7th day being a holy day is Biblical and the 1st day being holy is by tradition. You also stated that after Christ was Crucified, He rested on the 7th day and choose to be raised up on the 1st day of the week so we keep the 1st day holy. My new question is where did He state after His resurrection or where did His disciples state after His resurrection that the 1st day was to be made holy?

My second comment is regarding your explanation of the 4th commandment. I thank you for explaining that not taking just Exodus 20:8 but also considering verses 9-11 to see how it is to be kept holy. I am glad you brought up this point. I fully agree with you on that explanation. Let me condense what the verses say. Verse 9 states that for 6 days we should do work. Verse 10 says that the day is the sabbath of the Lord and re-states that nobody in your house should do any work. Verse 11 says why the day is holy, because God created all in 6 days and rested on the 7th day and blessed it and hallowed it or made it holy. The end of verse 11 and Genesis 2:2,3 are very similar. I looked up a few commentaries and would like to quote them.

Albert Barnes, the great presbyterian commentator wrote on Gen.2:2,3: "The seventh day is distinuished from all the preceding days by being itself the subject of the narrative. In the absence of any work on this day, the Eternal is occupied with the day itself, and does four things in reference to it.
First, He ceased from His work which He had made.
Second, He rested. By this was indicated that His undertaking was accomplished."

contd.-2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2008 6:42:03 PM Close
contd.-2 Dr Koshy,

Barnes on Gen 2:2,3: "The resting of God arises not from weariness, but from the completion of His task. He is refreshed, not by the recruiting of His strength, but by the satisfaction of having before Him a finished good.
Third, He blessed the seventh day. Blessing results in the bestowment of some good on the object blessed. The only good that can be bestowed on a portion of time is to dedicate it to a noble use, a special and pleasing enjoyment.
Accordingly, in the fourth place, He hallowed it or set it apart for holy rest. This consecration is the blessing conferred on the seventh day."
Barnes also further states that the solemn act of blessing and hallowing is the institution of a perpetual order of seventh-day rest.

Adam Clarke states that "It is by the authority of God that the Sabbath is set apart for rest and religious purposes, as the six days of the week are appointed for labor. Without this consecrated day religion itself would fail, and the human mind, becoming sensualized would soon forget its origin and end. ...it is one of wisest and most beneficent in its effects of any ever instituted."

Mathew Henry says: "Sabbaths are as ancient as the world, and I see no reason to doubt that the sabbath, being now instituted in innocency, was religiously observed by the people of God throughout the patriarchal age."

Scofield says: "The same Hebrew word (qodesh) is translated sanctify, consecrate, dedicate, and holy. It means, set apart for the service of God."

Further Clarke comments on Exodus 20:8 "As this was the most ancient institution, God calls them to remember it; as if He had said, Do not forget that when I had finished my creation I instituted the Sabbath, and remember why I did so, and for what purpose. ...the sanctification of the seventh day is commanded as having something representative in it; ... for it typifies the rest which remains or the people of God, and in this light appears to have been understood by the apostle, Hebrews 4."
contd.3

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2008 7:12:03 PM Close
contd -3

Adam Clarke on Ex.20:8 "Because this commandment has not been particularly mentioned in the New Testament as a moral precept binding on all, therefore some have presumptously inferred that there is no Sabbath under the Christian dispensation. The truth is, the Sabbath is considered as a type: all types are of full force till the thing signified by them takes place; but the thing signified by the Sabbath is the rest in glory which remains for the people of God, therefore the moral obligation of the Sabbath must continue till time be swallowed up in eternity."
Again Clarke comments on Exodus 23:12 "Sabbath, for that was of perpetual obligation, and was paramount to all others. That the sanctification of the Sabbath was of great consequence in the sight of God, we may learn from the various repetitions of this law; and we may observe that it has still for its object, not only the benefit of the soul, but the health and comfort of the body also."

Dr Koshy, I am appreciate your bringing up Exodus 31:12-18. In verse 13 we read:"Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep; for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you." Again verse 16 says almost the same thing.

Regarding the punishment for breaking the Sabbath. It is the same for any of God's laws. The wages of sin is Death. Sin is the breaking (transgression) of the law. All sins have to be paid for, not just the sin for breaking the sabbath. God is a gracious and forgiving God and that is why Jesus died for all of us. He paid th price for sin. This does not mean that we sin continually. We obey His laws because we love Him. This applies to all His commandments, not just one.

Regarding the picking of food to eat. Even for the children of Israel in the wilderness God made a provision for the food. Every day the manna was to be for that day only but on the 6th day a double portion of manna was to be taken one portion for the next day.

contd. -4

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2008 7:44:04 PM Close
contd.4 Dr Koshy,

Many of the commandments in the old testament had harsh punishments spelled out. For instance adultery was punishable by death by stoning. But when the woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, He did not advocate stoning her, but told her to go and sin no more. It does not mean that adultery was permissible. Similarly, being a kind and merciful God, He said that the Sabbath was made for man, for man's good and not to be kept for the sake of the sabbath, not man for the sabbath. The Pharisees wanted to just add burdens to man and so created many rules and regulations regarding God's law and regarding the laws of Moses. This is what Christ was against.

You also brought up Col.2:16-17. You should actually begin at verse 14 which states: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross." Here Paul is referring to being judged on the keeping of the Mosaic or Ceremonial laws, which were a shadow of the things to come. These were nailed to the cross. They typified Jesus sacrifice. Clarke says that "the apostle most evidently means the ceremonial law: this was against them, for they were bound to fulfill it; and it was contrary to them, as condemning them for their neglect and transgression of it. This law God has blotted out." Clarke further comments on verse 16 re: sabbath by saying: "There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or tat is moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. As it is a type of rest which remains for the people of God, of an eternity of bliss, it must continue in full force till that eternity arrives; for no type ever ceases till the antitype be comes."

I will include Barnes commentary in the next post.

contd. -5

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2008 8:02:31 PM Close
contd.-5 Dr Koshy,

Barnes on Col.2:14-17
Barnes says that these were about the numerous rites and ceremonies of the Jewish religion. "The ordinances of the Mosaic law were necessary, in order to introduce the gospel; but they were always burdensome... The death of Jesus had the same effect, in regard to the rites and institutions of the Mosaic religion, as if they had been affixed to His cross."
Barnes on verse 16 says: "There is reference here to the distinctions which the Jews made on this subject, implying that an effort had been made by jewish teachers to show them that the Mosaic laws were binding on all." Regarding the sabbath here Barnes says "the Sabbath here refers to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation."

Finally, almost all comentators agree that the sabbath was kept by the patriarchs. Also, read Genesis 26:5 "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." There is no biblical record of any laws or commandments prior to Sinai. Yet Abraham kept it.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2008 3:09:23 AM Close
This heretical group, the SDA, the so-called 'Sabbath' keepers are like the ones that taught that unless you are circumcised you can not be saved.

And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. (Ac 15:1 KJV)

If they are particular of observing the Old Testament laws so meticulously, they should have circumcision done. They should meticulously follow what is taught in the Scritpures:

Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. (Ex 35:3 KJV)

Thus saith the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem; Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do ye any work, but hallow ye the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers. But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction. And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein; (Jer 17:21-24 KJV)

If what they pretend to be of what they are not, then they are hypocrites. These are those, who put on a false appearance of virtue or religion. These are those, whom Jesus described as 'vipers'. These are those, who act in contradiction to their stated beliefs or feelings. For them even if you commit sin, it is not a big deal, because you will not suffer eternally, but you will be burnt up and no more. For them "soul is the combination of dust and the Breath of Life from God". The dust and the breath go to the Lord, according to them, when a person dies, because it is a combination, or the dust and the breath go to earth when a person dies, because it is a combination.

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2008 8:12:39 AM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

The SDA's in this forum are not presenting themselves to you as saints. We are pointing you to Jesus Christ and his teachings, do not follow us or any human being.

As long as we do not rebel and are willing to obey it is Jesus business to present us faultless before God by covering our shortfalls with his robe of righteousness.

Jesus cannot do anything for us if we want to willfully disobey and be rebellious.

Regarding:

Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the Sabbath day. (Ex 35:3 KJV)

which has been bothering you, for your information in those days, especially in the wilderness they did not have the convenience we have now, I don’t think then even had a match box to light a fire.

It was a process that required a lot of labor to get a fire started, so they were advised to get the fire stared before Friday sunset and keep it burning thru Sabbath hours, if they need to warm themselves during cold season or warm their food.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2008 10:22:17 AM Close
I was searching for the last one hour if God asked the Children of Israel to get "fire stared before Friday sunset and keep it burning thru Sabbath hours, if they need to warm themselves during cold season or warm their food."

II. "...Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day"

The punishment for not observing Sabbath in its true sense is:

Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:15
Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Numbers 15:32-36
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2008 12:48:08 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-1

You wrote, “You also stated that after Christ was Crucified, He rested on the 7th day and choose to be raised up on the 1st day of the week so we keep the 1st day holy. My new question is where did He state after His resurrection or where did His disciples state after His resurrection that the 1st day was to be made holy?” --- Where did I write, “…so we keep the 1st day holy?” In another thread, Bobby Chacko asked me to learn from Matthew 19 that the Lord Jesus Christ commanded to keep the Sabbath. It was a lie, because there is no mention of Sabbath in that chapter. On this thread, you write that I wrote, “…so we keep the 1st day holy.” If you cannot show this, then you are also lying. Your “new question” is mute and irrelevant. It is based on a lie. As a SDA, you should show some honesty.

Your quote from Albert Barnes is not what we are discussing. We are discussing from the Bible about the SDA teaching. I have met Albert Barnes, a few times. I know him as a covenant theologian and he was the pastor of the Tenth Presbyterian Church, Philadelphia.

When you started this thread, On Mar 2008 I asked you the following, “After going through your 14 part posting, I wonder about the purpose of this thread. You have not provided scriptural justification, but provided a lengthy article. If you are interested to look into the scriptures about the subject, please tell us where do we read about Sunday, in the Bible? What did the Lord Jesus Christ say about Sabbath? What was the day of the week that was preferred by the apostles to gather together as an assembly of believers to remember the Lord's death?” The answers you gave me were according to SDA teaching, but they were scripturally wrong. You are free to refer and consult with any learned or unlearned person in the world, but your answers must be from the Word of God, the Bible.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2008 12:50:13 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-2

Your explanation of Exodus 31:12-18 is a way to justify to violate your dearly held commandment to observe the Sabbath. This is what you wrote, “Regarding the punishment for breaking the Sabbath. It is the same for any of God's laws. The wages of sin is Death. Sin is the breaking (transgression) of the law. All sins have to be paid for, not just the sin for breaking the sabbath. God is a gracious and forgiving God and that is why Jesus died for all of us. He paid th price for sin. This does not mean that we sin continually. We obey His laws because we love Him. This applies to all His commandments, not just one.” --- Are you saying that any one who commits sin must be put to death? Where did you read this? Romans 6:23 does not say this, for you to allude to it. Read Exodus 31:15, “…Whoever do work on the Sabbath day shall certainly be put to death.” In Exodus 35:3, Moses said to the children of Israel, “… but on the seventh day there shall be to a holy day, a Sabbath of rest to Jehovah: whoever does work on it shall be put to death.” In Numbers 15:32-36, we read about the execution of the violator by the children of Israel, and not by God. In verse 36, it is stated that it was done “as Jehovah had commanded Moses.” “Put to death,” is not the same as the “wages of sin is death.” It is the punishment for violating the law and is to be administered by to those who live under the law. If you and your friends, insist on keeping the Sabbath, we are not objecting to it. It is done using you will. If you insist on keeping the Sabbath holy, you should cease from work. You should also insist on executing the prescribed punishment, stoning that person to death. I have no objection, if you want to do the same on your family, if they violate any other law, as given through Moses. If not, you are using a double standard. Remember your wife, children, (if you are married), and you are subjected to this execution. Kindling a fire on Sabbath is a violation of this law.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2008 12:51:13 PM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-3

Again, you wrote, “Many of the commandments in the old testament had harsh punishments spelled out. For instance adultery was punishable by death by stoning. But when the woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, He did not advocate stoning her, but told her to go and sin no more.” --- Have you read John 8? Are you writing these things from a book or an article, written by another person? Please read, at least, John 8:7 and 11. You are wrong again, in your writing.

Colossians 2:14-17 say that the Old Testament ordinances were a “shadow” of things to come. A shadow appears when the real is between the observer and the light, and the observer need not be the same as the real. The real also could observe the shadow, when the light is different from the real. When the real is the light, then there is no shadow. We do not see the shallow of a flame or a light, unless there is a greater light. Christ said that He is the light. He is the true ;light that lights the world. Therefore, the shadow is visible as a necessary phenomenon to those who do not have the light. SDA do not have the true light. That is the reason, they want to observe the Sabbath, which was a shadow of things to come. The Lord of the Sabbath did not require His disciples to observe the shadow, Sabbath. You must be born from above. You need to be saved by the finished work of the Lamb of God, the light of this world, who takes away the sin of the world.

Why are you quoting from Adam Clarke? Is Adam Clarke a famous SDA? Please answer.

Barnes notes or any commentaries do not supersede the Word of God.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2008 5:11:28 AM Close
Sonny varghese,

You have proved yourself as most inconsistent, immature, childish and master copier. No one has seen you, so if you are true, come out with the truth if you are circumcised on the eight day? Are you observing 'Sabbath' laws perfectly. Don't you want to get out that 'death' penalty assigned for non-observance of 'Sabbath' in its true essence. Don't you want to get out of the curse? If so, I admonish you to accept that there is no other way for you to be forgiven of your sins unless you believe fully in Jesus and accept Him as your personal Savior. You have to believe that no other work needs to be attached as a condition along with the perfect Sacrifice He has offered in Himself for you and me on the cross of Calvary. Satan is not the final one to remove your sins. If you depend on Satan as your refuge you will end up along with Satan at his final destination.

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2008 5:30:54 PM Close
Dear Dr. Koshy,

Firstly, please forgive me of misquoting you. I did not mean to say that you quoted those exact words. Your exact words were: "The Bible do not say that the first day of the week is holy. It just tells that the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first day of the week.It also tells us that it was the day the lord rose from the dead as the first fruit from among the dead. It also tells us that on that day the risen Lord appeared to His disciples more than once. He chose that day and not the Sabbath. There is the approval of the Holy Spirit for the first day of the week for us to gather to remember the Lord’s death, on the day of His resurrection. We are remembering the broken body and the shed blood of our risen Lord Jesus Christ, and not as dead and buried in the tomb, on His day of resurrection. On the Sabbath, He was in the tomb." However the intent of your answer was that Christ rose on the 1st day of the week, so you keep it holy. Keep in mind that my original question to you on June 3 was "Please show me 1 reference where God made the 1st day holy and blessed it - instead of all the clever arguments and assumptions put forth here."

Secondly, the disciples broke bread everyday not just on the 1st day of the week (Acts 2:42,46). The only reference to breaking bread on the 1st day of the week in Acts 20 is regading Paul's farewell address to the Troas church.

The reason I quoted Barnes and Clarke are because they are well known theologians and well recognized. You might have met Albert Barnes if you are more than 138 years old because Albert Barnes died in December 1870. Barnes was indeed pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of Philadelphia from 1830-1867. The person you are referring to must be his son or grandson since they have the same name. The great Prysbeterian theologian is who I referred from. Also Adam Clarke is another great theologian and lived in England between 1762-1832. He was a Methodist.

contd.-2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2008 5:56:23 PM Close
contd.-2 to Dr Koshy,

Sabbath keeping is not a SDA Doctrine. It is God's doctrine and part of His law, not any church law or doctrine. I did not invent it either. There is no need for anybody to get agitated over what God instituted. The brethren church has most of its doctrines correct. The people who separated first debated about the sabbath and the reason they decided to keep sunday holy is because there was no church, in their knowledge, that kept the 7th day holy. Therefore, keeping 7th day holy as a day devoted to worship God can be a Brethren doctrine.

I would like to also bring your attention to Paul the apostle. He kept not only the sabbath holy but also kept other Jewish laws, which he himself said were not to be kept by all (Col.2:16-17).

The following verses show that Paul kept the sabbath:
1. Acts 13:42 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them -- the next sabbath."
2. Acts 13:44-46 "And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
3. Acts 16:13-14 "And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us : whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."
4. Acts 17:2 "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures," (note the words, as his manner was).

contd.-3

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2008 6:24:24 PM Close
contd.-3 to Dr. Koshy,

5. Acts 18:4 "And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath , and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks."

Finally look at Paul's arrest and defense: In
Acts chapter 21 and 22 we read about Paul being arrested in Jerusalem and his defense before the Jews. At no time is he accused of breaking the sabbath or telling others to keep another day holy. In chapter 24 we read about his defense before Felix. Note his answer in Acts 25:8 (before Festus and Agrippa) Acts 25:8 "While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all."

Similarly at Rome in Paul calls the Jews there and defends himself saying in Acts Chapter 28:17-20 "And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of death in me. But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had aught to accuse my nation of. For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you : because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain."
Till the end of his life Paul kept all Jewish customs, most importantly, the Sabbath. We can say that based on his statements that neither did he break the sabbath commandment nor did he encourage anyone to do it. So that shoots down the theory that Paul or another disciple advocated transferring 7th day sabbath to 1st day of the week.

contd. -4

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2008 6:48:17 PM Close
contd. -5 Dr. Koshy

I should also apologize to you regarding the James synagogue issue. I was writing something from James, now I forgot what it was, and I copied a definition of synagogue from the Complete Word Study Bile and pasted it here The text I pasted it cut off what I had written earlier because of the xx character limit in each post. I just wanted to let you know that I was not stating that James had written something about the synagogue.

I recently read a 1987 Doctoral Dissertation submitted at the Whitefield Theological Seminary in Lakeland, Florida, USA for a Doctor of Ministry degree by Francis Nigel Lee. He is now Professor of Systematic Theology at Queensland Presbyterian Theological Seminary, University of Queensland, Australia. This was titled "Daily Family Worship". I have the document in Adobe PDF format and can send it to you. In it Nichols writes about Calvin's comments on Genesis. He quotes from Calvin's Commentary on Genesis:"Six days were employed in the formation of the world.., that He might engage us in the consideration of His works. He had the same end in view in the appointment of His own rest. For He set apart a day selected out of the remainder for this special use." Thus God's benediction, in Genesis 2:3.
"That benediction is nothing else than a solemn consecration by which God claims for Himself the meditations and employments of men on the seventh day. This is, indeed, the proper business of the whole life in which men
should daily exercise themselves"
"Lest men should prove less sedulously attentive to it than they ought, every seventh day has been selected especially for the purpose of supplying what was wanting in daily meditation. First, therefore, God rested; then He blessed this rest, that in all ages it might be held sacred among men."The Sabbath was a figure of this rest.It was commanded to men from the
beginning, that they might employ themselves in the worship of God. It is right that it should continue to the end of the world". Isaiah 66:23

-5

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2008 7:08:36 PM Close
contd - 5 Dr Koshy,

Nichols quoting Calvin:
Calvin also made a very important comment on the Fourth Commandment in the Mosaic Decalogue.
"We have an equal necessity for the Sabbath with the ancient people, so that on one day we may be free and thus the better prepared to learn and to testify our faith.... It is very absurd that a man should encourage a profane contempt of God
in the family over which he presides.... The hallowing of the Sabbath was prior to the [Mosaic] Law.... [It] seems to have had its origin from a well-known and received custom....
"It is not credible that the observance of the Sabbath was omitted when God revealed the rite of sacrifice to the holy fathers. But what in the depravity of human nature was altogether extinct among heathen nations, and almost obsolete with the race of Abraham – God renewed in His Law." Genesis 2:1-3; 3:21; 4:3f; 4:26; 7:4-11; 8:6-12; 8:20f; 9:1-7; 12:3; 12:7f; 13:4; 18:19; Exodus 5:4f; 16:4f; 20:8-11; etc.

Later from the Westminister Confession: "God gave to Adam a Law as a covenant of works by which He bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience." Moreover, God also gave to the unfallen Adam "power and ability to keep it" – namely that Law of God. "Genesis 2:17; Romans 5:12; 5:17; Galatians 3:10; Job 28:28" etc. quoted from Westminster Confession of Faith, in Sub. Stand., chs. 19:1

"The Fourth Commandment requireth of all men, the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as He hath appointed in His Word... The charge of keeping the Sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families.., because they are bound not only to keep it themselves but [also] to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge." Exodus 20:10; Joshua 24:15; Exodus 23:12; etc. Westminster Confession of Faith 21:1-7.

Nichols shows later how sabbath was kept from Adam to Noah and from Shem to Malachi.
So even early covenant theologians believed in Sabbath from Adam to Christ.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2008 1:27:21 PM Close
'sonnyvarghese' has been misguiding with his writing and copying and pasting here others' views. He has misquoted 'Albet Barnes' that he supported Sabbath. Albert Barnes was not a SDA to support the views of SDA.

Bible is the authority to read and understand; however when we do not understand them clearly we take the aid of concordance, Bible dictionaries and commentaries of few eminent theologians, have already done great deal of study on the Scriptures and made available for us their writings without any accusations on how other's believe or go on pointing 'you wrote' and 'I wrote'. Matthew Henry is one such great theologian who made detailed studies on Scriptures. There are excellent literatures available for study such as Easton's Bible dictionary, American Tract Society Dictionary, The treasury of David etc. Few commentaries from Scoffield are prejudiced to support Darby's expositions. Nonetheless, I would chose to read the Scriptures first and when I do not understand read as many commentaries as possible and take the best convincing one to form a view in my heart.

Matthew Henry and Albert Barnes never supported observance of 'Sabbath' on Saturday. None of them declared 'Saturday' as 'Sabbath'.

Few excerts from Albert Barnes are reproduced here to show how 'sonnyvarghese' has been lying.

Quotes from Albert Barnes expostions"

Matthew 12:8 "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day."

For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day - To crown all, Christ says that he was Lord of the Sabbath. He had a right to direct the manner of its observance - undoubted proof that he is divine.

Mark adds (Mark 2:27) "the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." That is, the Sabbath was intended for the welfare of man; it was designed to promote his happiness, and not to produce misery by harsh, unfeeling requirements. It is not to be so interpreted as to produce suffering by making the necessary supply of wants unlawful. Man was not made for the Sabbath.

Contd...2

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2008 1:29:41 PM Close
contd..2
Quotes from Albert Barnes...

(Matthew 12:1-8). The account contained in these verses is also recorded in Mark 2:23-28, and Luke 6:1-5.

At that time - Luke (Luke 6:1) fixes the time more particularly. He says that it was "the second Sabbath after the first." To understand this, it is proper to remark that the "Passover" was observed during the month "Abib," or Nisan, answering to the latter part of March and the first of April. The feast was held seven days, commencing on the fourteenth day of the month Exodus 12:1-28; (Exodus 23:15), on the "second" day of the paschal week. The law required that a sheaf of "barley" should be offered up as the first-fruits of the harvest, (Leviticus 23:10-11). From this day was reckoned seven weeks to the feast of "Pentecost" (Leviticus 23:15-16), called also the feast of weeks (Deuteronomy 16:10), and the feast of the harvest, (Exodus 23:16). This second day in the feast of the Passover, or of unleavened bread, was the beginning, therefore, from which they reckoned toward the Pentecost. The Sabbath in the week following would be the "second Sabbath" after this first one in the reckoning, and this was doubtless the time mentioned when Christ went through the fields. It should be further mentioned, that in Judea the barley harvest commences about the beginning of May, and both that and the wheat harvest are over by the twentieth. Barley is in full ear in the beginning of April. There is no improbability, therefore, in this narrative on account of the season of the year. This feast was always held at Jerusalem.

Matthew 12:14-21 "Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. 15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 And charged them that they should not make him known: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased:

Contd...3

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2008 1:36:19 PM Close
Contd...3

Quotes from Albert Barnes:

I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

This account is found also in Mark 3:6-12.

Matthew 12:14 "Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him."

Matthew 12:34-35 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

O generation of vipers! - Christ here applies the argument which he had suggested in the previous verse. They were a wicked race; like poisonous reptiles, with a corrupt and evil nature. They could not be expected to speak good things - that is, to speak favorably of him and his works. As the bad fruit of a tree was the proper effect of its "nature," so were their words about him and his works the proper effect of their nature. The "abundance" or fullness of the "heart" produced the words of the lips. "Vipers" are a poisonous kind of serpents, not often a yard long, and about an inch thick, having a flat head. The males have two large teeth, through which a most deadly poison is thrown into the wound made by the bite. They are an emblem of malignity and mischief. These were strong expressions to be used by the meek and lowly Jesus; but they were not the effect of anger and malice; they were a declaration of the true character of the people with whom he was conversing - a declaration most justly deserved. See the notes at Matthew 3:7.

Contd...4

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2008 1:42:49 PM Close
Contd...4

Quotes from Albert Barnes:

Remarks On Matthew 12

1. Our Saviour has taught us the right use of the Sabbath, (Matthew 12:1-13). His conduct was an explanation of the meaning of the fourth commandment. By his example we may learn what may be done. He himself performed only those works on the Sabbath which were strictly necessary for life, and those which tended to benefit the poor, the afflicted, and needy. Whatever work is done on the Sabbath that is not for these ends must be wrong. All labor that can as well be done on another day all which is not for the support of life, or to aid the ignorant, poor, and sick. must be wrong. This example justifies teaching the ignorant, supplying the wants of the poor, instructing children in the precepts of religion, teaching those to read in Sunday schools who have no other opportunity for learning, and visiting the sick, when we go not for formality, or "to save time on some other day," but to do them good.

2. The Sabbath is of vast service to mankind. It was made for man - not for man to violate or profane, or to be a day of mere idleness, but to improve to his spiritual and eternal good. Where people are employed through "six" days in worldly occupations, it is kind toward them to give them one day particularly to prepare for eternity. Where there is no Sabbath there is no religion. This truth, from the history of the world, will bear to be recorded in letters of gold - "that true religion will exist among men only when they strictly observe the Sabbath." They, therefore, who do most to promote the observance of the Sabbath, are doing most for religion and the welfare of man. In this respect Sunday school teachers may do more, perhaps, than all the world besides for the best interests of the world.

End of Quotes from Albert Barnes.

It is high time these heretical teachings from Sonny Varghese, Bobby Chacko and Tom Kalappura are rejected vociferously. More than the teaching on 'Sabbath', their teachings on other points are too dangerous.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2008 5:20:38 PM Close
'sonnyvarghese' has been misguiding with his writing on "Saturday" as the seventh day and it is the "Sabbath"-day by copying and pasting here lengthy misleading article and others' views. He has misquoted 'Albet Barnes' that he supported the view that Saturday is the 'Sabbath'-day. Albert Barnes was not a SDA to support the views of SDA. While Christians all over the world have found it right to observe the essense of Sabbath on Sunday, SDA sticks on to the view that 'Saturday' is the Sabbath-day and neglect 'Sunday'. There is no mention of Saturday or Sunday in the Bible. These days are from man-made calendar, which had many errors crept in to it, over the years. None can prove that the 'Saturday' as the 'Sabbath' day. The Bible defines the days, months, years, and weeks in entirely a different way. If all these days could be found exactly, then there is no mystery in the Scripture about the second coming of Jesus. No where in the Bible a cue is given to arrive at the exact day and date and that is the reason why even genii have been not able to find out until now, when is Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, the end of 69th week, the commencement of 70th week, the second coming of Jesus. The hour and time of Jesus Second coming is known only to the Father in heaven as per the Scriptures. Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists have stumbled time and again about the date of second coming of Jesus. Jehovah witnesses believed that Jesus would return in 1914 and ended up gathering huge scoff for themselves.

To substantiate their claim that Saturday is the Sabbath they will cite few web sites and calendars worked out by SDAs. Their belief is not based on the Scriptures but on man-made calendars.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2008 5:43:31 PM Close
I think about the Christians in Gulf Countries, where they are given 'Friday' Rest and work on 'Sunday'. Is it possible to refuse work there on 'Saturday' or 'Sunday'? All of them may have to return to India or some other country, perhaps. (I am not sure about the strict or easy conditions prevailing there, because I am not in Gulf).

Although I do not want to impose my view on any body, my personal view is that God has shown an exemplary action in taking rest on seventh day and asking us to keep it holy. The first day and seventh day are not according to our calendar. God's First day does not match with our 'Sunday'. The main point, I think, is that God wants every human being to take rest one day in a week and keep it holy. Unless it is emergent, and necessary or inevitable to forego rest on 'Sunday' and keep it holy, I should not disregard Scriptures. The Almighty God himself rested on the seventh day after working on Creation for six days. Then, it is quite reasonable to believe that we need to take rest on one day, be it Friday, or Saturday, or Sunday, and keep it holy. The first day is universally accepted now as the rest-day. As far as possible I would think I should take rest on the first day of the week and observe the essense of 'Sabbath' on that day and also worship the Father in heaven through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2008 7:54:39 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-1

This is a one issue posting. Your answer should address the specific issue.

On 27 Jun 2008, you wrote, **Sabbath keeping is not a SDA Doctrine. It is God's doctrine and part of His law, not any church law or doctrine.**

I wrote to you the following before. Let me quote it again.
**Your explanation of Exodus 31:12-18 is a way to justify to violate your dearly held commandment to observe the Sabbath. This is what you wrote, “Regarding the punishment for breaking the Sabbath. It is the same for any of God's laws. The wages of sin is Death. Sin is the breaking (transgression) of the law. All sins have to be paid for, not just the sin for breaking the sabbath. God is a gracious and forgiving God and that is why Jesus died for all of us. He paid th price for sin. This does not mean that we sin continually. We obey His laws because we love Him. This applies to all His commandments, not just one.” --- Are you saying that any one who commits sin must be put to death? Where did you read this? Romans 6:23 does not say this, for you to allude to it. Read Exodus 31:15, “…Whoever do work on the Sabbath day shall certainly be put to death.” In Exodus 35:3, Moses said to the children of Israel, “… but on the seventh day there shall be to a holy day, a Sabbath of rest to Jehovah: whoever does work on it shall be put to death.” In Numbers 15:32-36, we read about the execution of the violator by the children of Israel, and not by God. In verse 36, it is stated that it was done “as Jehovah had commanded Moses.” “Put to death,” is not the same as the “wages of sin is death.” It is the punishment for violating the law and is to be administered by to those who live under the law. If you and your friends, insist on keeping the Sabbath, we are not objecting to it. It is done using you will. If you insist on keeping the Sabbath holy, you should cease from work...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2008 8:01:21 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-2

... You should also insist on executing the prescribed punishment, stoning that person to death. I have no objection, if you want to do the same on your family, if they violate any other law, as given through Moses. If not, you are using a double standard. Remember your wife, children, (if you are married), and you are subjected to this execution. Kindling a fire on Sabbath is a violation of this law.**

Please remember, no one is agitated about Sabbath, except three of you; Bobby Chacko, Tom Kalappura, and you. All of you are good in not answering questions that will expose your falsification of the Word of God. Now I ask you to ask the specific question that you did not address in you reply. If you did, I failed to read it. Please answer this, in the light of what you wrote. If keeping Sabbath is God’s doctrine, then do you (SDA) keep it as God commanded? If not, why not? If the SDA people do not keep it as commanded in the Old Testament, then you are propagating it as a SDA doctrine.

I will address other issues on your posting of 27 Jun 2008, later. I am asking you to answer this question. Answer this question only. You have no excuse to deviate.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2008 12:36:37 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,
I did not realize that you were that serious in getting an answer for:

“Please remember, no one is agitated about Sabbath, except three of you; Bobby Chacko, Tom Kalappura, and you. All of you are good in not answering questions that will expose your falsification of the Word of God. Now I ask you to ask the specific question that you did not address in you reply.”

I thought you would have got the answer from other threads where similar issued were addressed.

Assuming that I did not keep the Sabbath holy, the penalty under the Law of Moses is – death by stoning. We are now not under Theocracy and hence not under the Law of Moses, according to the law of the land you cannot stone me.

Moreover, the Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross:

Colossians 2:14 (New International Reader's Version)

14 He wiped out the written Law with its rules. The Law was against us. It opposed us. He took it away and nailed it to the cross.

However, I have violated the Law of God – the Ten Commandments. The wages of sin is death – so the penalty for sin is death for violate any one of the 10 commandments.

So now if you want an answer to your question you will have to drag me to the feet of Jesus as “the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery”

The answer to your question is found in the following passage of the scripture –

replace “woman” with my name and “adultery” with breaking of the Sabbath (the penalty for both was death by stoning according to the law of Moses:

John 8:
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Continute ...

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2008 12:40:13 PM Close
SABBATH OBSERVANCE - part 2

7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: GO, AND SIN NO MORE.

This is a perfect example for Law and Grace at work. Jesus had to uphold the Law but because of Grace he is able to forgive our sins, and in gratitude we go about our lives with greater determination to keep the law.

Now to come back to proper Sabbath observance – assume you have invited me, Sonny, and Tom Kallapura for a weekend. We will be arriving by Friday sunset – won’t you take off from you routine work and be prepared to receive us; in order to spend as much time as possible with us you will see that all arrangements that can be done in advance is taken care of.

Now assume instead of us it is the King of the Universe who wants to meet you on HIS DAY – the Sabbath Day, you don’t get to pick which day you want him to visit you.

The King is going to bless you on that day – won’t you do as much preparation as possible so you can spend quality time with Him and receive the maximum blessings.

You won’t want to serve Him cold food, so if kindling a fire takes half of the day to get it started, you will get that task done before the King arrives, but if you have an electric stove or gas stove, you will naturally ignite the fire and warm the food which you prepared in advance and kept in your refrigerator.

Continued - part 3 of 3

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2008 12:41:53 PM Close
SABBATH OBSERVANCE - Part 3 of 3

I hope you got the message – there are no hard and fast rules regarding Sabbath observance as long as you engage in holy activities. Jesus taught “it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath Day”.

May God bless all of us are we understand this Truth.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2008 3:34:19 PM Close

It is as simple as that of Pharisees dragging other Christians, who are not keeping 'Saturday' as 'Sabbath' to the feet of Jesus, who keeps writing on the ground, as though He heard them not, and when the Pharisees keep alleging, He would lift His head again, and say unto Pharisees, and would say, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at"...Non-Sabbath-Keepers, and then He keeps writing on the ground.

Then, Pharisees "being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning..." at Sonny, and other two, "and even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the Non-Sabbath-keepers standing in the midst" justifying that none know 'Saturday' as the 'Sabbath-day'.

And it repeats....

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 11:51:57 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-1

As Bobby Chacko posted his reply to the question I posed to you on this thread, I wish to go back to your posting of 27 Jun 2007. You wrote, **However the intent of your answer was that Christ rose on the 1st day of the week, so you keep it holy. Keep in mind that my original question to you on June 3 was "Please show me 1 reference where God made the 1st day holy and blessed it - instead of all the clever arguments and assumptions put forth here."** --- I have a question. How do you know my intent, for you to say what I quoted from your positing? Did I ever write that? You quote from covenant theologians and say that that is what I believe. When you quote them, you should also remember that they are covenant theologians. If you could remember, in an earlier posting, when I identified the teaching of Seventh Day Adventists, I also wrote that there is another underlying argument about holy days and that was that of Covenant Theology. Please tell, what made you think that those who object to your erroneous teaching of Sabbath do hold another error that the first day of the week is holy? On this thread, we are dealing with two errors about ‘holy’ days.

You wrote the following as your second point, **Secondly, the disciples broke bread everyday not just on the 1st day of the week (Acts 2:42,46). The only reference to breaking bread on the 1st day of the week in Acts 20 is regading Paul's farewell address to the Troas church.** --- Did you read the verse from Acts 2? Apparently, not! There is a common practice among the teachers of errors and that is they quote part of verses out of its context. In this case, you referred to Acts 2:42 and 46 without reading them. Let me quote them for you, “And they preserved in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers.” (Acts 2:42)...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 11:53:23 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-2

... “And every day, being constantly in the temple with one accord, and breaking bread in the home, they received their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,…” (Acts 2:46) In Acts 2:42 we read about breaking of bread, teaching of the apostles, and fellowship. There the mention of day is missing. In Acts 2:46, we read about “every day” and “breaking bread.” We do not read about teaching of the apostles or fellowship. On the other hand, we read about other things in connection with “breaking of bread in the house.” They are, it was done “every day” and that was how “they received their food.” Why did you omit this part of the explanation of breaking bread in the house? I consider that was done purposely to mislead the unsuspecting. This is how the falsification of the Word of Truth is done by false teachers. In 2 Timothy 2:14-15, we read that we should cut the Word of truth in a straight line. You do not do that. You cut the Word of Truth as crooked as you could.

Please remember that we are not discussing about what theologians wrote. We are discussing what is written in the Word of God. As Bobby Chacko wrote, **Let us not condemn any one or any denomination; we are to examine "IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD".** After writing that, I have not seen you or him doing that. Instead, you are engaged in partial quotes from the Word of God with interpretation being placed as what is written in the Word of God, along with extracts from covenant theologians.

You also wrote, **The brethren church has most of its doctrines correct. The people who separated first debated about the sabbath and the reason they decided to keep sunday holy is because there was no church, in their knowledge, that kept the 7th day holy. Therefore, keeping 7th day holy as a day devoted to worship God can be a Brethren doctrine.** --- (Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 11:56:37 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-3

... I ask you to show the evidence of your conclusion as stated above. I know that you do ignore my questions and go on a tangent with something as your answer. I am asking for verifiable evidences. If you cannot produce the verifiable evidences, then you should retract such falsifications of facts, whatever that may be.

You also wrote, **I would like to also bring your attention to Paul the apostle. He kept not only the sabbath holy but also kept other Jewish laws, which he himself said were not to be kept by all (Col.2:16-17).** --- Please explain how did you come to conclude that Apostle Paul kept Sabbath and other Jewish laws. The expression, “Let no man judge you …” is not to say that he kept, but it is an exhortation that they should not be mislead by those who insist on doing what is in the Law.

You referred to Acts 13, 16, and 17. Do we read in those chapters that Apostle Paul went to the Jews to observe Sabbath? We only learn that it was a practice of Apostle Paul to go to the Jews to preach the gospel. In all these three places, that is what we see. The Jews gathered for prayer and reading of the Scriptures on Sabbath. Therefore, it was a convenient day and place to preach to them about their Messiah. Was it to keep the Sabbath, Apostle Paul gone to the Jews on Sabbath days? It was not. It was to preach the gospel and to reason with them about their Messiah from their Scriptures.

Your citing of Acts 21, 22, and 25 are commendable, but it was without considering its context. Acts 25:8 should be considered in its context. Acts 25:7 tells us that the Jews could not prove the charges they raised against him. In Acts 25:8, Apostle Paul brought it to the attention of Festus that the Jews failed to prove their accusations against him. Not only that, they have not accused him anything related to the Jewish law. This argument is very important in the light of Acts 25:9...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 11:58:15 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-4

... In that verse, we read about the mindset of Festus. Festus was not interested in justice, but about pleasing the Jews. If we study Acts 20:6-7, we come to realize that Apostle Paul traveled more than a Sabbath Day’s journey to reach Troas from Philippi. The Jews did not bring the subject of law, as part of their accusation.

You also wrote, **Till the end of his life Paul kept all Jewish customs, most importantly, the Sabbath. We can say that based on his statements that neither did he break the sabbath commandment nor did he encourage anyone to do it. So that shoots down the theory that Paul or another disciple advocated transferring 7th day sabbath to 1st day of the week.** --- Before writing this, did you read Acts 20? Obviously, you did not. Did any one write on this Forum, **Paul or another disciple advocated transferring 7th day Sabbath to 1st day of the week?** If not, what is your justification for this statement? There was no transfer of days to call another day holy, as you try to make it. You should ask this question to your covenant theologians. The disciples gathered together to break bread on the first day of the week and not on the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week (Acts 20 and 1 Corinthians 11-16). The apostles went to the synagogue on the Sabbath Day to speak about their messiah. It was the place of Jewish gathering on the Jewish holy day.

You again found another covenant theologian to establish Sabbath. I assume, that the author of that dissertation was making Sunday as the day of rest. Did you read Isaiah 66:23, or just repeated after a covenant theologian? Let me quote Isaiah 66:23, “And it shall come to pass from new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith Jehovah.” This verse also talks about “new moon to new moon.” Do you want to observe that too, or do you want to ignore it?...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 11:59:59 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,
Part-5

... Is the expression “Sabbath to Sabbath” an indication of “from-to” or that day is a holy day? Please answer.

You also mentioned about John Calvin. He was also a covenant theologian, who taught that Sunday is the Sabbath Day. Is Nichols a covenant theologian? I don’t know. It appears that he is. We are not discussing the point of view of covenant theology in contrast to that of SDA.

Your last statements from your postings of 27 Jun 2008 were, **Nichols shows later how sabbath was kept from Adam to Noah and from Shem to Malachi.
So even early covenant theologians believed in Sabbath from Adam to Christ.** --- This is an open admission that there is no historical evidence about the observation of Sabbath after Christ. Nichols was able to show only up to Malachi. With all your efforts, you concluded that it was only up to Christ. Thank you, for this candid admission.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 12:01:22 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,
Part-A

Dear Bobby Chacko,

Thank you replying on behalf of Sonny Varghese, about not observing Sabbath as demanded by God in the Old Testament, under the covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai.

You wrote, **I did not realize that you were that serious in getting an answer for:** --- I asked the same question more than once. If I was not “serious” about getting an answer, why do I have to repeat the same question to more than one person? In the light of this statement, allow me to walk you through some of my early experiences with you and other SDA, on this Forum. First, you copied certain statements from SDA Website. I asked you to explain certain statement and you did not do that. The SDA statement was a cleverly stated doctrinal position of SDA about the incarnation of the Son. When I explained how the SDA would explain, then you said that you do not agree with the SDA statement. Second, you made a statement about Jesus Christ. I thought that it may be a mistake and asked you to explain. You failed to do that. I had to ask you again to get a reply. Third, you wrote that the SDA and KB hold the same doctrine about the deity of Christ. I wrote that it is not so. Then I asked you to explain about the deity of Christ as taught by the SDA. I am still waiting. Fourth, I have to ask more than twice to get an answer about the observation of Sabbath by SDA. Now you write that you thought that I was not serious about getting an answer. There could be more incidences like these. There a pattern emerging from your part in ignoring questions.

(To be cont. Part-B)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 12:02:41 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,
Part-B

You wrote, **However, I have violated the Law of God – the Ten Commandments. The wages of sin is death – so the penalty for sin is death for violate any one of the 10 commandments.** --- According to the law and commandments given to the children of Israel, the punishment for violating Sabbath was stoning to death. That is not what we read in Romans 6:23. In Romans 6:23 we read about the wage that a sinner will receive from God. In Exodus 20, 31, and 35 the punishment was to be received by the violator from the congregation of the children of Israel and not from God. You are not cutting the Word of truth in a straight line as required in 2 Timothy 2:15.


Thank you for telling us that the law was abolished at the cross. You also wrote using John 8, as part of your answer. I failed to see the answer. The Lord Jesus Christ did not say that they should not stone that woman. He told them they could. Those who live under a command should execute the ramifications of not keeping that command. The Lord Jesus Christ, who was the only one who could cast the stone, told her that he will not do that and she should not sin anymore. The Jews were not asked not to stone that woman. The execution of the law is to be done by those who are under that law. If Sabbath is to be kept holy, according to SDA, they should execute the punishment to any who refuse to keep that holy, among them. This execution could be done by those who are blameless according to the law in question.

Your scenario of being invited to spend a weekend with me is a mute point, because I have not extended any invitation to you, all three, yet. When it is extended, then we will discuss about when you should arrive, not before. This method of scenario creating is a type of asking leading questions. I also could ask a simple leading question, ‘Did you stop using crack cocaine?’ The intent of the question is not to receive an answer, but to trap the other person...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-C)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 12:04:10 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,
Part-C

... Please avoid leading questions, in the future.

You went on to write, **Now assume instead of us it is the King of the Universe who wants to meet you on HIS DAY – the Sabbath Day, you don’t get to pick which day you want him to visit you.** --- You wrote before, **Let us not condemn any one or any denomination; we are to examine "IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD".** In the light of that statement, let me ask you where is it written, ** the King of the Universe who wants to meet you on HIS DAY – the Sabbath Day?** There is a great difference between being written and interpreted. Interpretations are not what are written. Interpretations are what are deduced or induced from what is written, not what is written itself. Your requirement was, it should be written. I ask you to follow your requirement.

Where do we read that to meet the Lord in the air, is an invitation, as you wrote? In other words, where is it written? From 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15, I understand that it is a promise and it is the blessed hope. When it is a promise to me from my Lord Jesus Christ, then it is my right or a privilege, and not an invitation. It is mine and no one could deny that to me. When you say that it is an invitation, you have not accepted the invitation to come and to accept Him as your personal Savior, Lord, and God. You must be born from above, John 3.

In this connection, let me ask the following: First, do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords? Second, what day he chose to visit His disciples on this earth after His resurrection and before His ascension? It is written about the day. I ask you to search the scriptures and tell us, about it. You brought the subject of meeting the King.

(To be cont. Part-D)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 12:04:58 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,
Part-D

You finished you postings by stating, **I hope you got the message – there are no hard and fast rules regarding Sabbath observance as long as you engage in holy activities. Jesus taught “it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath Day”.** --- Where is it written in the Word of God that man should keep the Sabbath, outside the law given to the children of Israel? Where is it written that men from Adam until Moses observed Sabbath? Did the Lord Jesus Christ refer to the “Sabbath Day,” as defined under the Law of Moses or differently? You already stated, **Moreover, the Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross.** If it is not the Law of Moses that you depend on the observation of Sabbath, then you have to show where is it written?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 1:10:24 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

I appreciate the time you took to respond, however, we are just going in circles, repeating the same thing. The only good is that the readers are getting the message loud and clear.

You need to first differentiate between the Law of God and the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was temporary.

Covenant does not mean LAW. The following it its meaning:

"A COVENANT, in its most general sense, is a solemn promise to engage in or refrain from a specified action."

Under the Old Covenant, the Children of Israel said:

Deuteronomy 5:27 (King James Version)
27Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and WE WILL HEAR IT, and DO IT.

They did not keep their promise, so they were often taken as captives; after they repented they were restored - this happened several times throughout their history.

Under the new Covenant, God is taking the initiative to help us keep the Law:

Hebrews 8:10 (King James Version)

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Those who abide in Christ, it will be natural to them to keep all of the Ten Commandments.

If I missed any question, I will get back to you later.

Bobby Chacko


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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 2:39:23 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

You don't have to get on a tnagent on covenant, becuase Sonny Varghese is quoting covenant theologians and forcing their views on me. It is a dishonest way of discussing things. Now you are going on a tangent. Before we go on that direction, I ask you to explain the SDA teaching on the deity of Christ. You mentioned about this to distract from discussion, before. When are you going to explain the teaching of SDA on the deity of Christ?

You are missing a lot of important questions, but are eager to get started on new subjects.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2008 3:33:19 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

I am a bit surprised why you are bothered about SDA teaching on the Deity of Christ? I made it very clear that it is same as KB teaching.

Christ is not a created being, he is EQUAL to God the Father.

The following is the only text that I can find that goes way back that gives us some idea on how God the Father and God the Son got together.

Proverbs 8:22 (King James Version)
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Romans 11:33 (King James Version)

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways PAST FINDING OUT!

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2008 6:58:53 AM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

You wrote, **I am a bit surprised why you are bothered about SDA teaching on the Deity of Christ? I made it very clear that it is same as KB teaching.**

Then you quoted Proverbs 8:22 and Romans 11:33. You did not give the SDA teaching on those verses. Please do so.

I wish to add the following questions that you did not answer:

1. Where do we read that to meet the Lord in the air, is an invitation, as you wrote?

2. ** the King of the Universe who wants to meet you on HIS DAY – the Sabbath Day?** There is a great difference between being written and interpreted. Interpretations are not what are written. Interpretations are what are deduced or induced from what is written, not what is written itself. Your requirement was, it should be written. I ask you to follow your requirement.

3. In this connection, let me ask the following: First, do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords? Second, what day he chose to visit His disciples on this earth after His resurrection and before His ascension? It is written about the day. I ask you to search the scriptures and tell us, about it. You brought the subject of meeting the King.

4. Where is it written in the Word of God that man should keep the Sabbath, outside the law given to the children of Israel? Where is it written that men from Adam until Moses observed Sabbath? Did the Lord Jesus Christ refer to the “Sabbath Day,” as defined under the Law of Moses or differently? You already stated, **Moreover, the Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross.** If it is not the Law of Moses that you depend on the observation of Sabbath, then you have to show where is it written?

These are from the recent postings, I made on 2 Jul 2008. If you are interested, I could go back and list my questions that you did not answer, in June 2008.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2008 1:15:29 PM Close
Dear George Koshy,

YOUR QUESTION:
“Then you quoted Proverbs 8:22 and Romans 11:33. You did not give the SDA teaching on those verses. Please do so.”

ANSWER: The following is the SDA Teaching -
John 1:1-3 (King James Version)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

“I wish to add the following questions that you did not answer:”
QUESTION:
“1. Where do we read that to meet the Lord in the air, is an invitation, as you wrote?”

ANSWER:
I did not mean that – please specify.

YOUR QUESTION:
“2. ** the King of the Universe who wants to meet you on HIS DAY – the Sabbath Day?** There is a great difference between being written and interpreted. Interpretations are not what are written. Interpretations are what are deduced or induced from what is written, not what is written itself. Your requirement was, it should be written. I ask you to follow your requirement.”

ANSWER:
Isaiah 66:23 (King James Version)
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Now God’s presence is in the world trough his Holy Spirit:
John 16:7 (King James Version)
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Continued

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2008 1:17:33 PM Close
YOUR QUESTION:
“3. In this connection, let me ask the following: First, do you think that the Lord Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords? Second, what day he chose to visit His disciples on this earth after His resurrection and before His ascension? It is written about the day. I ask you to search the scriptures and tell us, about it. You brought the subject of meeting the King.”

ANSWER:
Yes, Lord Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
After his resurrection he met His disciples on the First Day of the week – Sunday.

YOUR QUESTION:
“4. Where is it written in the Word of God that man should keep the Sabbath, outside the law given to the children of Israel? Where is it written that men from Adam until Moses observed Sabbath? Did the Lord Jesus Christ refer to the “Sabbath Day,” as defined under the Law of Moses or differently? You already stated, **Moreover, the Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross.** If it is not the Law of Moses that you depend on the observation of Sabbath, then you have to show where is it written?”

ANSWER:
Sabbath is a part of the Ten Commandments were verbally transmitted from Adam to Moses; at Mt. Sinai, God wrote it with his own fingers on stone and gave:

Exodus 15:26 (King James Version)
26And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Continued

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2008 1:19:36 PM Close
The Law of Moses was placed beside the ark:

Deuteronomy 31 (King James Version)
24And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

This Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross, and not the Ten Commandments:

Colossians 2:14 (King James Version)
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The following is not in the Ten Commandments, but in the Law of Moses - both are different sets of Laws:

1 Corinthians 9:9 (King James Version)
9For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.


Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2008 12:52:39 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,
Part-1

On 3 Jul 2008 you gave John 1:1-3 as the SDA teaching on my request, “Then you quoted Proverbs 8:22 and Romans 11:33. You did not give the SDA teaching on those verses. Please do so.” You are very good in not giving the teaching of SDA. You quoted the Scripture. Now you have to explain SDA on those verses.

You asked me a question, ““1. Where do we read that to meet the Lord in the air, is an invitation, as you wrote?”” --- If you have read what I wrote, you would have realized that it was in connection with your writing, **Now assume instead of us it is the King of the Universe who wants to meet you on HIS DAY – the Sabbath Day, you don’t get to pick which day you want him to visit you.** I gave the verses along with my question.

To my question #2 you wrote, “Isaiah 66:23 (King James Version)
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.” --- In connection with Isaiah 66:23, I did ask certain questions before. It deals with a time with moon being in existence. When is that? From “Sabbath to Sabbath” and “new moon to new moon” are the interesting expressions. It is in connection with the law given to the children of Israel. Are you confounding the Sabbath that is to be observed under the law with the Sabbath that did not exist before the law from Adam until Moses? If you are, you have to give the verses that tell us that the people from Adam until Moses observed Sabbath. You also mentioned that the SDA teaching on Sabbath is not based on the law and you quoted the verse from Galatians. Please provide where it is written that men observed Sabbath from Adam until Moses.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2008 12:53:44 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,
Part-2

In answer to my question #3, you answered, “Yes, Lord Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
After his resurrection he met His disciples on the First Day of the week – Sunday.” --- If the King of kings and the Lord of lords, did not meet the disciples on the Sabbath, but on the first day of the week, how do you justify your statement, “Now assume instead of us it is the King of the Universe who wants to meet you on HIS DAY – the Sabbath Day?” He met His disciples after His resurrection on the first day and not on the Jewish Sabbath Day. Was the Jewish Sabbath Day the same as the seventh day in the cycle of time after creation? If so, please explain that from the Word of God.

On my question #4, you answered, “Sabbath is a part of the Ten Commandments were verbally transmitted from Adam to Moses; at Mt. Sinai, God wrote it with his own fingers on stone and gave:” --- You suggested that we should be asking “Is it written in the Word of God?” Where is this written in the Word of God, as you stated? The Ten commandments were given to the children of Israel as part of the law on two tables of stone. You also wrote, “Moreover, the Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross.” If the law was abolished at the cross, all parts of it were abolished. The New Testament clearly provides all that a follower of the risen Lord Jesus Christ is to follow.

When you wrote, “This Law of Moses was abolished at the Cross, and not the Ten Commandments:” Where is this written in the Word of God? You quoted Colossians 2:14. There we read about the ordinances written by hand. “Handwriting of ordinances” is the exact expression. Are you telling that the Ten Commandments were not written on the two tablets of stones, using the hand of God? It is written in the Word of God that God wrote them with His Fingers. The fingers are on the Hand. Now you say that it was not written with the Fingers of God. Please explain.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2008 12:54:29 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,
Part-3

You also wrote, “The following is not in the Ten Commandments, but in the Law of Moses - both are different sets of Laws:” --- Where is this written in the Word of God? The verse you quoted from 1 Corinthians does not say that.

Your selective use of verses is leading to misunderstanding of what is written in the Word of God. Instead of using selective verses, why don’t you provide the exact teaching of SDA?

Let me tell you something that you may not know. In 1993-94, in the beginning of Forums in the internet, two teachers of SDA appeared on another Forum and wrote almost similar lines. They also ignored questions, but posted what they wanted. You three also exhibit the same phenomena. You provide some thing as an answer when pressed for it, but cleverly avoid providing the SDA teaching, as required. You might have been trained buy those two, from Battle Creek, MI. When they came, they came on that Forum without giving their identity as SDA, till it was provided by us. You did the same. It appears that you are trained to write, “I agree,” along with making some positive remarks about those who engage with you. This was also a technique they used in 1993. There is one difference. That is, after writing that you agree with any one, you follow it up with another expression, “you are wrong.” Are you agreeing with what is wrong? If you know that it was wrong, why do you agree with it?

On this thread, I also wish to invite KBs like: P.T. Varghese (a.k.a ‘Berecha’), ‘kbr,’ ‘Keralabrethren,’ and others, including ‘spectator’ and ‘observer,’ to provide positive contributions. Bobby Chacko, Sonny VArghese, and Tom Kalappura are interested to have a discussion with you. These three SDAs have conducted themselves admirably. They have not made demeaning remarks about our One God, “The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” They have not made any demeaning remarks about His word, either. They are keeping this as a discussion.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 7:42:15 PM Close
Dear Dr. Koshy,

Thank you for your post of June 30. I would like to point out a couple of errors in your post. You wrote: "Your explanation of Exodus 31:12-18 is a way to justify to violate your dearly held commandment to observe the Sabbath." I think that this is a grave error. Keeping the Sabbath holy is not my dearly held commandment. The commandment belongs to God who gave it for man's benefit. It was first given at Eden, later at Sinai as part of the 10 commandments. It is equally for your benefit as it is for mine. As far as I am concerned, all of the 10 commandments are equally dear and should be equally important for all, and breaking any one is equal to breaking all according to James 2:10. Again, Romans 6:23 does say that "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." In 1st John 3:4 we do read that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

In Exodus 31 we read about the punishment for breaking the Sabbath because it shows how important it is for God that His chosen people show the right example to others. Today we being the spiritual Israel should show an example to others by keeping Gods commandments and not blatantly break it, thus mocking God. To whom more knowledge is given much more is required of him, as we read from the parable of the talents. Deliberately breaking the commandment/s is one way we dishonor God.

Secondly, just like the example we see in Numbers 15 the execution of a person for gathering sticks on the Sabbath, we see in Joshua 7 Achan being stoned for stealing goods from Ai. In this case not only was Achan stoned but also his sons, daughters, his oxen, his asses and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had. Similarly adultery was punishable by death (Deut. 22:22). Worshipping other Gods was punishable by death (Deut. 13:6-10). In Leviticus 24:16 we read that blaspheming the name of God was punishable by death.

contd. -2

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:00:12 PM Close
contd. 2 Dr. Koshy,

Exodus.21:17 says that a person who curses his or her parent should be put to death and Deut.21:18-21 said that even stubborn children who did not change be put to death. Deut.17:12 said that the person who did not obey the priest should be put to death, Deut. 22:21 said that a woman who looses her virginity before marriage also be put to death. So we read about the death penalty for a host of crimes, not just the breaking of the Sabbath. However, it does not mean that we stone people who commit sins. God Himself did not put Cain to death but allowed to let him live because He is kind, long-suffering and merciful. These examples show how much God hates His commandments being broken, and this includes the 4th commandment. That is all.

I would like to point you to Mathew Henry's commentary on Exodus 31:12-18. If I may quote some of the important points from Mathew Henry's commentary. He says:

The law of the Sabbath had been given them before any other law. It had been inserted in the body of the moral law, in the fourth commandment; it had been annexed to the judicial law; and here it si added to the first part of the ceremonial law, because the observance of the Sabbath is indeed the hem and hedge of the whole law;... for in the moral law, it stands in the midst between the two tables.
The nature, meaning, and intention, of the Sabbath, by the declaration of which God puts an honor uon it, and teaches us to value it. The institution of the Sabbath was a great instance of God's favour to them, and a sign that he had distinguished them from all other people; and their religious observance of the Sabbath was a great instance of their duty and obedience to him. God, by sanctifying this day among them, let them know that he sanctified them, and set them apart for himself and his service. It is designed for your benefit as well as for God's honour. It was to be observed throughout their generations, in every age, for a perpetual covenant.

contd. -3

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:07:58 PM Close
contd. 3 Dr. Koshy,

Quoting from Henry on Exodus 31 12-18
The law of the Sabbath. They must keep it as a treasure, as a trust, observe it and preserve t, keep it from polluting it, keep it up as a sign between God and them, keep it and never part with it.
The reason of the Sabbath; for God's laws are not only backed with the highest authority, but supported with the best reason. God's own example is the great reason, Exo_31:17. As the work of creation is worthy to be thus commemorated, so the great Creator is worthy to be thus imitated, by a holy rest, the seventh day, after six days' labour, especially since we hope, in further conformity to the same example, shortly to rest with him from all our labours.
- end of points from Mathew Henry's commentary.

You asked a specific question in your second post. "If keeping Sabbath is God’s doctrine, then do you (SDA) keep it as God commanded? If not, why not? If the SDA people do not keep it as commanded in the Old Testament, then you are propagating it as a SDA doctrine." I would like to answer this question by saying that I would like to keep all God's commandments as perfectly as possible. However, as Paul says in Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; and that includes me. The Sabbath commandment is not more important than any other commandment, all are equally important. In your question, again, you made the mistake by presuming that this is a SDA commandment. Please remember that it is God's commandment and not an SDA doctrine. My forefathers, the Nazrani Christians of Kerala kept it several hundred years before any SDA kept it. The early church kept it even before the Catholic church was formed. So it is not any churches doctrine.
Let me repeat this point again:
- Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16).
- The early church kept the Sabbath (Acts 9:2 tells us that the early Church worhipped with the Jews in their synagogues).
- The Jews and Gentiles in the early church kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:42, 44)
- contd 4

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:11:57 PM Close
contd. 4 Dr. Koshy,

- Paul kept the Sabbath (Acts 17:2)
- No accusation against either Jewish or Gentile Christians of breaking the sabbath...
- Nazrani Christians who migrated to India mainly between 100 and 800 years after the time of Christ kept the Sabbath until the Portuguese forced them to worship on Sunday 1500 years after the time of Christ.
Therefore this is not an SDA doctrine or the doctrine of any church but simply God's law. If we love God we show it by keeping His commandments (John 14:15, 21, John 15:10, 1John 2:3, 1 John 3:24, 1John 5:2).
Those who keep man's commandments and doctrines are worshipping God in vain. (Mathew 15:9, Mark7:7, Titus 1:14) Keeping the 7th day holy is God's commandments and keeping 1st day holy is man's doctrine. There is simply no excuse for it. Those who unknowingly break this do it out of ignorance, but those who know it and break it do it out of the hardness of their hearts. I would plead with all readers to not be like the Pharaoh who hardened his heart but let the Holy Sprit guide you to keeping Gods law.

Regarding the keeping of the Sabbath holy as God commanded it, each of us should strive to do our best to keep it holy as God intended it. Remember that Jesus reminded us that the Sabbath was made for man, that is for man's benefit. It is a day in which we can do good, not just to God but to each of our fellow men too. Love for God and love for our neighbour should be our guiding principle when keeping the Sabbath holy. We should just put away our own work that we can do on the other 6 days of the week and devote this one day to God.

Dr. Koshy, in your July 2 post you asked ". How do you know my intent, for you to say what I quoted from your positing?" Let me repeat. You said "The Bible do not say that the first day of the week is holy. It just tells that the disciples gathered together to break bread on the first day of the week.

contd. - 5

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:15:37 PM Close
contd. 5 Dr. Koshy,

It also tells us that it was the day the lord rose from the dead as the first fruit from among the dead. It also tells us that on that day the risen Lord appeared to His disciples more than once. He chose that day and not the Sabbath. There is the approval of the Holy Spirit for the first day of the week for us to gather to remember the Lord’s death, on the day of His resurrection." Please explain what you meant by this. Let me repeat that I am sorry if I misread your intention.

Again I quoted the explanation from Covenant Theologians to show that the Sabbath was from Creation and not just for the Jews but a perpetual covenant. No other intention in quoting them.
You also said: "Please tell, what made you think that those who object to your erroneous teaching of Sabbath do hold another error that the first day of the week is holy? On this thread, we are dealing with two errors about ‘holy’ days." From the above posts I have stated that keeping the Sabbath holy is not an erroneous teaching. However, I agree with you that keeping the 1st day of the week holy is definitely an erroneous teaching. So we have only 1 error about holy days and that is the one that teaches that the 1st day of the week is holy.

It is my opinion that we need to study the book of Acts more carefully. Here are some of my points regarding 7th day worship, in addition to the ones I stated in the post above, from the book of Acts.

1. The first Christians were Jews, and so were all of Christ's disciples. Nobody advocated change of Sabbath. Considering the fact that the Sabbath commandment was one that the Jews kept carefully, making additional rules in addition to what God asked them to.
2. Saul went in search of Christ's followers in Damascus to the synagogue. So we can infer that the early believers worshipped at the Jewish synagogue. All of the synagogue worshippers kept the sabbath holy.
3. The early church believed that the law as holy and to be kept (Romans 7:12,13)

- contd. 6

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:21:25 PM Close
contd. 6 - Dr. Koshy
). Even the enemies of the early church never accused them of breaking any of the laws, including the 4th commandment.
4. Luke being a gentile and being credited with having written both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts says that "As his custom was, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath" of both Jesus (Luke 4:16) and Paul (in Acts 17:2). If the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday, don't you agree that Luke writing his Gospel and the book of Acts, after following Paul for several years would have mentioned it.
5. In Acts 13 we read about Paul teaching the Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath. After that he taught the Gentiles also on the Sabbath at the synagogue. The following week both Jews and Gentiles, in fact the whole city came to hear him on the Sabbath. So this shows that not only did Jews worship on the Sabbath but Gentiles also. Acts 18:4 also says that both Jews and Gentiles worshipped in the synagogue on the Sabbath.
6. In Acts 16 :13 we read that they went to the riverside on the Sabbath. This took place in Philippi, a city of Macedonia which had more gentile believers than Jewish. Evidently the Jews started persecuting the Christians, or at least the women, and so they choose to pray by the riverside as a group. Thus we cannot make an argument that the Sabbath was only for Jewish Christians.
7. When Gentiles were converted, the Jewish Christians made an issue about them being circumcised, we do not see them making any issue regarding the Sabbath, which was a commandment. Circumcision was only a ceremonial law and not part of the 10 commandments.
8. In Acts 15:18-21 Peter and James answering Paul and Barnabas regarding the necessity of keeping ceremonial laws simply state that they abstain from pollution of idols, and from fornicaiton, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach Him, being read in synagogues every Sabbath day. So the Sabbath was binding on Gentile converts.

contd. 7

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:25:15 PM Close
contd. 7 Dr Koshy,

9. Act 17:1-4 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. Here again note that of the devout Greeks a great multitude joined the church. These people were meeting at the synagogue and keeping the sabbath holy.
10. Finally, the Jews never charged Paul with subverting the sabbath or advocating its change. Paul also emphatically states that he never did anything against the laws of the Jews or against the temple in Acts 25: 8 and throughout his defense. The only charge against Paul was that he believed in the resurrection of Christ, which the Sadducees did not believe in.
In your July 2 post you again brought up the point of breaking the bread. You wrote: " In Acts 2:42 we read about breaking of bread, teaching of the apostles, and fellowship. There the mention of day is missing. In Acts 2:46, we read about “every day” and “breaking bread.” We do not read about teaching of the apostles or fellowship. On the other hand, we read about other things in connection with “breaking of bread in the house.” They are, it was done “every day” and that was how “they received their food.” Why did you omit this part of the explanation of breaking bread in the house? I consider that was done purposely to mislead the unsuspecting." All I said on June 27 was "Secondly, the disciples broke bread everyday not just on the 1st day of the week (Acts 2:42,46)." I was simply telling you this in response to your quote that the disciples broke bread on the 1st day of the week.

contd. 8


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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:26:53 PM Close
contd. 8 Dr Koshy,

Both these verses (Acts 2:42,46) do not say in definite terms that the breaking of the bread here referred to either eating regular meals or the Lord's supper/Eucharist, which is exactly my point. Saying that the disciples broke bread on the 1st day or any other day does not mean that they authorized transfer of the sabbath to sunday. Here let me quote these verses from the Message translation: Acts 2:42 says "They committed themselves to the teaching of the apostles, the life together, the common meal, and the prayers." Verse 46 and 47 "They followed a daily discipline of worship in the Temple followed by meals at home, every meal a celebration, exuberant and joyful, as they praised God. People in general liked what they saw Every day their number grew as God added those who were saved. " When I come to a portion that is difficult or where the meaning not so clear, I refer to other translations or paraphrased versions. That makes the meaning quite clear. My quote of these verses was simply to show that breaking of bread by disciples was not just on the 1st day of the week but everyday, and no intention of trying to mislead anybody. One thing I learned as a child was always to read in context, thus I never try to mislead someone because what I am reading and quoting is the Holy word of God. It is my intent to bring out only the truth while it is others who are trying to propagate errors.

Let me ask you a new question regarding the breaking of bread. Was the breaking of bread a celebration of Christ's crucifixion or His resurrection? Many of those who consider Sunday being holy argue that Christ resurrected on Sunday and quote the breaking of bread in Acts 20 as proof that the disciples transferred the Sabbath to Sunday. All this while I believed that the breaking of the bread in the Eucharist or holy communion represented the broken body of Christ and was a symbol of that.

contd. 9

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 8:35:06 PM Close
contd. 9 Dr.Koshy,

In 1 Corinthians 11:24 we read Jesus saying: "And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. " If the breaking of the bread was a symbol of Christ's broken body, then how can it be used as a symbol of His resurrection, and further that it is a sign that Sabbath was changed to Sunday?

Finally, would you kindly state why you regard or keep the 1st day or Sunday holy and not the seventh day or the sabbath, as God had commanded? If you do not regard sunday to be a holy day then why don't you keep the sabbath holy? The point of this whole topic is to discuss Sabbath versus Sunday being a holy day or the day devoted to God's purpose.

A couple of other things I wanted to mention is that I did not bring up covenant theologians into this topic. On May 27 you first brought up covenant theology. On June 3 I also stated that I do not subscribe to Covenant theology and that I do not follow any Babylonian tradition either. I did not even know what covenant theology was until you mentioned the phrase. Later I read more about this and quoted from them, thinking that you might favor the explanations offered by them. So please do not think that I am in favor of their teachings or explanations. My only leaning is to the clear and simple Word of God. I believe that the Bible can stand alone by itself and does not need any theological explanation or additional support.

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement from your last post above. I have always considered you to be a scholar and a gentleman. Your posts have encouraged me to study God's Word in more depth and my responses to you have been partly the benefit of that study. I have absolutely no hesitation in stating that I keep the Sabbath as God's Holy Day in honor of my Saviour who I love with my whole life and that I always want to do the right thing and please God for the good He has done for me.

Regards,
Sonny

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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 11:47:03 PM Close
Quote by F. F Bruce --

Some people cannot readily distinguish between the essential and the non-essential: if they abandon an old order for a new one, they feel it necessary to give up everything associated with the old order--neutral or even helpful features as well as others. But this is to exchange a positive form of legal obligation for a negative form. Thus, at the opposite extreme from those Jewish Christians in Jerusalem who followed the
ancient customs as a matter of course there may have been others elsewhere who discontinued them on principle. Paul's policy was different from both. Truly emancipated souls are not in bondage to their emancipation. Paul conformed to the customs or departed from them according to the company, Jewish or Gentile, in which he found himself from time to time, making the interests of the gospel the supreme
consideration. In Jewish company he would naturally observe the Jewish food laws, from common courtesy, not to speak of Christian charity, nor would he outrage Jewish sentiment by violating the sanctity of holy days, however much for his own part he esteemed all days alike. True, he was dismayed when he heard that his Galatian converts had begun to "observe days, and months, and seasons, and years"
(Galatians 4: 10); but they were Gentiles, and had no good reason for adopting the Jewish sacred calendar, least of all for adopting it by way of religious obligation. Once Paul had himself inherited the
observance of that calendar by way of religious obligation, but he had learned as a Christian to enjoy complete freedom with regard to its observance or non-observance.

..Contd..1/2

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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2008 11:51:17 PM Close
..contd 2/2

Quote by F.F Bruce ...
It is certain that in Jerusalem, of all places, he would live as a practicing Jew, if only out of consistency with his declared policy, to "give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God" and to "try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of the many, that they may be saved" (1 Corinthians 10 32 f.). There were few "Greeks" in Jerusalem, but both the Jews and the church
of God in that city would be scandalized if he failed to observe the "customs".

But if Paul claimed liberty of action for himself in such matters, why would he deny it to other Jewish - Christians? Provided they shared his attitude to the traditional practices of Israel as no longer divine
requirements but as voluntary actions which might be undertaken or omitted as expediency directed, they might freely go on with them. It was no more necessary for them than for Paul to be in bondage to their emancipation. If they wished, for what seemed to them to be good and proper reasons, to circumcise their children, Paul would remember that he had circumcised Timothy for what seemed to himself to be good and proper reasons. His letters give us no indication of his advice in these respects to Jewish Christians,
except that Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians alike should respect each other's scruples -- or lack of scruples

---->> End of quotes by F.F. Bruce

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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 11 Jul 2008 12:32:22 AM Close
'sonnyvarghese'

The Jews nailed the Son of God to the cross and then hurried home to keep their Sabbath.

Much harm is done when the sign and the thing signified are not distinguished. When Israel mistook form for reality, the prophets declared that God detested their Sabbath celebrations (Isaiah 1:14; Amos 5:21). In post exilic Judaism there was a tendency to glorify the Sabbath day while neglecting what the Sabbath was supposed to represent.

The Bible in general and any spiritual actions in particular can be understood and practised only through its living center, which is Jesus Christ crucified (having completed the full atonement on the cross) and risen from the dead. We must be careful to make Him the starting point in all our thinking instead of emphasising and gloryifying only sabbath.

By the way, do you observe sabbath on the very day of the week on which God rested after He created the world?

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Reply by : childofgod1988   View Profile   Since : 11 Jul 2008 4:16:39 AM Close
Dear Readers,
Just imagine Apostle Paul is alive.
He may ask Galatians 3:1-5 in this way “You foolish SDA! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

JSS

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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 11 Jul 2008 5:52:26 AM Close
Claims made by Ellen G White in Early Writings, p. 32, 33 regarding Sabbath...

"The Lord gave me the following view in 1847, while the brethren were assembled on the Sabbath at Topsham, Me.

We felt an unusual spirit of prayer. And as we prayed the Holy Ghost fell upon us. . . I was lost to earthly things and was wrapped in a vision of God's glory. I saw an angel flying swiftly to me. He quickly carried me from the earth to the holy city. . .

After viewing the glory of the holy (place), Jesus raised the second veil and I passed into the holy of holies.

In the holiest I saw an ark. . . In the ark was the golden pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of stone, which folded together like a book. Jesus opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them with the finger of God . . .

The four of the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all, -- The holy Sabbath looked glorious -- a halo of glory was all around it.

I saw that the Sabbath commandment was not nailed to the cross. If it was, the other nine commandments were; and we are at liberty to break them all, as well as to break the fourth."
============================================
Even the chief Apostles like Peter, Paul and John would not reach this level of heavenly prophecy!!!

It is funny to read the 'sabbath vision' again anyway...

"But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all, -- The holy Sabbath looked glorious -- a halo of glory was all around it."

These words seem to me like an 'hillarious hallucination comedy series' show performed by E.G.White.


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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jul 2008 8:01:22 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese,

I will answer you in detail after July 28, 2008.

By that time, I ask you to give scriptural references to what you wrote, **I would like to point out a couple of errors in your post. You wrote: "Your explanation of Exodus 31:12-18 is a way to justify to violate your dearly held commandment to observe the Sabbath." I think that this is a grave error. Keeping the Sabbath holy is not my dearly held commandment... It was first given at Eden, later at Sinai as part of the 10 commandments. It is equally for your benefit as it is for mine. As far as I am concerned, all of the 10 commandments are equally dear and should be equally important for all, and breaking any one is equal to breaking all according to James 2:10. Again, Romans 6:23 does say that "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." In 1st John 3:4 we do read that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."**

1. Show me from the Word of God that a commandment to keep the Sabbath was given at Eden? I have asked similar question before. Without answering it properly, when you repeat your statement, then you are lying without conscience.

2. You should read Acts 2:46, again. do not cut off the verse, because it suits you. Read the whole verse. It will tell you that, by breaking bread in the house, they received food. Do the SDA train to discard verses and cut off verses to suit their teaching? If they do, they are not serving God, because they are cutting off His word to ask the question posed by the serpent to the Woman, in Genesis 3:1, "Is it even so...?"

3. 1 John 3:4 should be, "Every one that practices sin practices also lawlesness (ANOMIA in Greek); and sin in lawlessness (ANOMIA)." It is not about the OT law, as you try to indicate. 1 John 3:4 and James 4:17 go hand-in-hand.

You should provide the verses to support Sabbath was given as a command at Eden to Man.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 1 Aug 2008 1:16:22 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

SABBATH BEFORE IT WAS GIVEN IN TO MOSES ON MT SINAI:

I guess we were all very busy for the past few weeks. Thank you very much for the positive comments you make regarding the participation of SDA's in this forum.

If I am not mistaken I had answered this question before. If we can agree that the Law existed, naturally Sabbath was included; Sabbath became an issue only around 400 AD when it was slowly substituted to Sunday. The Jews over-did the Sabbath Commandment so much that Jesus had to undo the excess.

REFERENCE TO THE LAW/SABBATH BEFORE Mt. Sinai:

Genesis 2:3 (King James Version)
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Mark 2:27 (King James Version)
27And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath:

Genesis 26:5 (King James Version)
5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 15:26 (King James Version)
26And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Exodus 16:28-30 (King James Version)
28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
29See, for that the LORD hath given you the Sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
30So the people rested on the seventh day.

Continued ...

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 1 Aug 2008 1:19:42 PM Close
SABBATH BEFORE IT WAS GIVEN TO MOSES ON MT SINAI:

SABBATH COMMAND USED AS A TEST OF OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW:

Exodus 16:4 (King James Version)
4Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

FOLLOWING INDICATE THE LAW WAS TRANSMITTED ORALLY TOO:

Matthew 5:21 (King James Version)
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : sonnyvarghese   View Profile   Since : 1 Aug 2008 5:36:11 PM Close
Dr. Koshy,

Sabbath was made at Eden. See Genesis chapter 2. The Bible does not state that the commandment was given then. However, Jewish thinkers believed that the Oral Law was given at Eden and was kept until Sinai. For example, Philo states that Abraham and the patriarchs were the Living Law. This helps us better understand how sin was defined prior to the written law.

Without law there could not be a defining of sin. The 50 chapters of the first book in the Bible tells us a lot about the sinful things that men did. However, in these chapters we do not see the law being explicitly stated by God. We cannot assume that the people had no knowledge of the law or that the law was not given. It simply is that the written law was not existent then. In Matthew 10 & 11 as well as in Mark 6 Jesus compares the then situation in Capernaum and the people of Jesus time with those in Sodom and Gomorrah and states that in the Judgement day it would be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than the people of Jesus day. This was because the people of Jeuss time had the written word and written laws while the people prior to Sinai had only the Oral word. Yet they had a temporal punishment for their sins and an eternal punishment in the last day.

From Cain to the time of Moses sin was rightfully called sin. The Bible does not explain how they knew sin to be sin and so we must arrive at the conclusion that God told them what sin was by telling what His commandments were. That is the only proof that the commandments were given at Eden.

At any rate the Bible clearly says that God instituted the Sabbath at creation in Eden. We also know that the weekly cycle continued from Eden and has been in existence till now. Day 7 was always been the Sabbath and will continue being the Sabbath because God made it so.

Regards,

Sonny

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:04:53 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-1

I decided to answer both of you in the same postings. I am also including in my postings, what you posted from 10 Jul 2008. Let me begin by stating, I was not in error when I cited from Exodus 31, but you are, when you took exception to it. In Exodus 20 and 31, God told the children of Israel, when they are keeping the Sabbath, it should be as He did. You say that it need not be, because it will create legal and political problems for you. Interpreting scriptures to your convenience as taught by Miss White (Bobby Chacko indicated that you are following her writings) is not interpreting the Word of Truth in a straight line as commanded in the Word of God (2 Timothy 2:15).

You wrote, ** Yet the Bible does state that God made the 7th day holy in both Genesis 2:2,3 and in Exodus 20:8-11.** Exodus 20 is part of the law that was given to the children of Israel in the wilderness. If you cite Exodus 20:8-11, then why are you not following Exodus 31:12-18. The later is directly connected with Exodus 20:8-11. You cannot refuse to accept Exodus 20 along with 31. In Exodus 20, we read that God resting on the seventh day from His creation work was the sole reason for the Sabbath observation by the children of Israel. You are not only inconsistent, but also misrepresenting the Word of God. I add another question for you to answer, thus making the list of unanswered questions a little longer. The question is: Where do we read that God made seventh day, as well as the Sabbath? If you cannot show the verse, you must retract and correct Miss White on this. If God made the seventh day holy, as you claim, you should be willing to kill yourself and your family for mocking God (Your writing on 10 Jul 2008). What is your excuse in mocking God, by working on the seventh day? Please answer.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:06:27 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-2

Please do not change the subject by citing, Exodus.21:17, Deut.17:12, 21:18-21, etc. Stay focused on the seventh day being created holy, as you claim. That is the subject of discussion. You have not provided a single verse to support your claim on this, but you find many verses to take the discussion away from it.

You also are eager to cite others from their writings. Mathew Henry may be a learned man from the past. He might have written a commentary on the Bible. Unfortunately, what he wrote is not the Bible, the Word of God. As Bobby Chacko wrote before, I am asking the same question, “IS IT WRITEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?” I am not asking what were written by Boyle, Mathew Henry, and so on.


You also wrote, ** Please remember that it is God's commandment and not an SDA doctrine.** If it is God’s commandment, why are you not keeping it? That is my question. You and any one in your family should not do any kind of work, on that day.

You wrote, **The early church kept the Sabbath (Acts 9:2 tells us that the early Church worhipped with the Jews in their synagogues). Jews and Gentiles in the early church kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:42, 44). Paul kept the Sabbath (Acts 17:2)** In Acts 9:2 or in any other part of the Bible, I failed to read that early Church worshipped with the Jews in the synagogues. Even the word ‘worship’ is not in the verses you cited. Interpretation is not what is written. What is written is what we read and how we should read it (Luke 10:26).

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:07:44 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-3

You write about “Nazrani Christians.” Most of the members of this Forum, I am one of them, know a lot about the Nazrani Christians and what they did. What we are discussing is not about your hatred towards the “Nazrani Christians” and your reasons for that. What we are discussing is what you write as a follower of Miss White about her unscriptural teaching on Sabbath and its keeping, as required by SDA. It is unscriptural, because you failed to provide a single verse to substantiate your claim of the observance of Sabbath from Adam until Moses. You only provide a speculative theology from Miss White as propagated by SDA. [Please note: I will retract my words, if you could provide the verse from the Bible.]

You also wrote, ** If we love God we show it by keeping His commandments (John 14:15, 21, John 15:10, 1John 2:3, 1 John 3:24, 1John 5:2).** If it is God’s commandment and if you claim to love God, you must keep it as required by God as he stated in the Word of God. Let your corrective action begin at home. That demands killing yourself and your family, without mercy. You violated the command of Sabbath, more than once. Let us see how much you love God to keep the SDA teaching that the observance of Sabbath is a God’s command for man forever. There are no loopholes in observing God’s command, for you to violate them.

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:08:54 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-4

About your question on the first day of the week: In the New Testament, the Bible does not say that the first day of the week is holy. At the same time, teaching Sabbath as holy and do unholy things on that day is mocking God. This is what SDA do. There is no command to keep the Sabbath to Adam or any one till Moses. There is no command to keep the Sabbath for Christians in the New Testament. If there is a command for the SDA to keep Sabbath, please keep it, as it should be done as prescribed in the Old Testament. IT IS WRITTEN and you should read and keep it. Where is your honesty? You are not keeping the Sabbath, but insist that others should keep it. It is not for us, SDA are not included, to keep the Sabbath. It is for you, the SDA, to keep it. Keep it, without excusing. If you excuse yourself, then you are accusing yourself.

Your 10 points on Sabbath: Where do you read that the disciples went to Sabbath to worship? Were do you read that the Jews went to the synagogue to worship, on the Sabbath Day? You must provide the references from the Word of God. I am not limiting this to the Book of Acts.

When you cited Romans 7:12-13, you should also read the whole chapter. Then you will learn that the law that is holy and good is from God. One of the immutable laws of God is that no man should continue in sin. Breaking God’s law is sin and SDA live under sin by breaking the Law of Sabbath, which you claim as established in Eden. However, you do not have any verse to support this.

You cited Luke 4:6 and Acts 13, 17:2, 16:13, 17:1-4, 18:4. The reason to go to synagogue was given in those portions. IS IT WRTTEN that they went to synagogue on the Sabbath Day to worship. If so, please tell be the verse. If not, are you belying the Word of God? (This may appear to be repeated.)

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:10:20 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-5

You used the circumcision to establish your unscriptural insistence of keeping the Sabbath, while not keeping it. Circumcision was a command that was given before the law, through Moses. If you do not know this truth, please read Genesis 17. All the males in Abraham’s household were to be circumcised. It was a command, not a ceremonial one, because it never classified as such by God. It was a command and those who did not receive it were to be cut off, killed, from among the children of Abraham (Genesis 17:14). That included Ishmael and the children of Kethura. Only a part of those who received the circumcision was required to keep the Sabbath Day, by imitating God - without working. Therefore, circumcision was a greater command. Are you circumcised? If not, why not. It is a command of God before Moses and kept by all the children of Abraham. May be, you are not a child of Abraham according to Romans 4:11? Do you know the significance of circumcision? You do not. Circumcision was not a ceremonial law, it was the seal of the righteousness of faith. (Colossians 2)

You cited Acts 15:18-21. Where is it written that the disciples were to observe Sabbath in that passage for you to say, **So the Sabbath was binding on Gentile converts.** What you showed here is the religious dishonesty. “Being read” is not equivalent to “being done.” When it is written “Read,” It should be read and understood as “Read.” Sabbath was not binding on the believers from the Gentiles, as per Acts 15:18-21. You are misrepresenting the Word of God.

(To be cont. Part-6)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:11:45 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-6

You argue from your imagination by stating, **10. Finally, the Jews never charged Paul with subverting the sabbath or advocating its change. Paul also emphatically states that he never did anything against the laws of the Jews or against the temple in Acts 25: 8 and throughout his defense. The only charge against Paul was that he believed in the resurrection of Christ, which the Sadducees did not believe in.** Do you know that the Jewish charges would have been thrown out of the Roman system of justice, if the charge was about Sabbath – a religious malpractice applicable to the Jews only. However, the resurrection of Christ was a threat against the Roman Empire and the Jews were much cleverer than you are. They did not accuse Paul about their religious law, but they accused him with that which threatened the foundation of the Roman Empire.

So far, you are arguing from your rhetoric and cleverly avoiding the showing of any scripture that states that the Sabbath was a requirement on all human beings from Adam or from Eden.

Let me quote the whole paragraph from you posting of 11 Jul 2008, ** In your July 2 post you again brought up the point of breaking the bread. You wrote: " In Acts 2:42 we read about breaking of bread, teaching of the apostles, and fellowship. There the mention of day is missing. In Acts 2:46, we read about “every day” and “breaking bread.” We do not read about teaching of the apostles or fellowship. On the other hand, we read about other things in connection with “breaking of bread in the house.” They are, it was done “every day” and that was how “they received their food.” Why did you omit this part of the explanation of breaking bread in the house? I consider that was done purposely to mislead the unsuspecting." All I said on June 27 was "Secondly, the disciples broke bread everyday not just on the 1st day of the week (Acts 2:42,46)."...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-7)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:13:27 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-7

... I was simply telling you this in response to your quote that the disciples broke bread on the 1st day of the week.** I asked you the question about the omission of part of the verse from Acts 2:46, because you were confounding two different things. When they broke bread on the first day of the week, it is said as it was done and Apostle waited for that. In Acts 2:46, it is explained that it was how they received their food daily. Breaking bread on the first day of the week is not the same as “breaking bread daily” as food. This kind of confounding of verses to deceive the unsuspecting is a common practice with SDA and I have experienced that, before from others. You are no exception.

You wrote, **Both these verses (Acts 2:42,46) do not say in definite terms that the breaking of the bread here referred to either eating regular meals or the Lord's supper/Eucharist, which is exactly my point. Saying that the disciples broke bread on the 1st day or any other day does not mean that they authorized transfer of the sabbath to sunday.** What is Eucharist? It is not the Lord’s Supper. It is a Roman Catholic ceremony. Why are you jumping from the Word of God to Covenant Theology to Roman Catholics. If you cannot keep focused on the Word of God and provide the verses to support your stand, then you should not have come on this Forum with a demand, “IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD.” I did not say that the Seventh Day became the First Day or Saturday became Sunday. Why are you making false statements? Falsification of facts should be avoided.

(To be cont. Part-8)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:18:49 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-8

You wrote that the differentiation of “breaking of bread” in Acts 2 and 20 are not given. Is this allegation true? It is not true. It is a falsification of the truth. One is stated as done daily, while the other is on the first day of the week. One is stated as being done to take food, while the other is not. The one is without assembling, while the other is being assembled. The one is in the house as food, while the other is being assembled for the purpose of “breaking bread.” This assembling was on the first day of the week.

You accused others, ** It is my intent to bring out only the truth while it is others who are trying to propagate errors.** I ask you to provide verses to support your statements on Sabbath being established at Eden. You have not shown a single verse. You are the one who propagate errors and falsifications. If not, just provide the verse. It is that simple. When you try to hide behind Miss White or some others, then you are trying to propagate errors and nothing but errors.

You wrote, ** In 1 Corinthians 11:24 we read Jesus saying: "And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. " If the breaking of the bread was a symbol of Christ's broken body, then how can it be used as a symbol of His resurrection, and further that it is a sign that Sabbath was changed to Sunday?** First, let me remind you that 1 Corinthians 11:24 contains what the Lord Jesus Christ said on that night He was betrayed. The whole verse is not what He said. Second and most important, I ask you to read the Word of God, in its context. You should read 1 Corinthians 11:20-34. What does it say about the Lord’s Supper. Why are you saying that some one changed the Sabbath to Sunday? Who said this or did this? You should ask him/her that question. When you do this repeatedly, then this is with an agenda to mislead others.

(To be cont. Part-9)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:20:34 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-9

You asked, ** Finally, would you kindly state why you regard or keep the 1st day or Sunday holy and not the seventh day or the sabbath, as God had commanded? If you do not regard sunday to be a holy day then why don't you keep the sabbath holy? The point of this whole topic is to discuss Sabbath versus Sunday being a holy day or the day devoted to God's purpose.** I have no command in the New Testament that I should keep any day holy. Those who claim they have, please show me the verse. I will also ask why they are not keeping it holy. I also would like to know why they do not accept the punishment of death for desecrating a day that they should keep as holy. I ask you this question. Please answer.

I asked this question before without receiving your answer from the Bible. The question is, let me quote what I wrote: “Show me from the Word of God that a commandment to keep the Sabbath was given at Eden. I have asked similar question before. Without answering it properly, when you repeat your statement, then you are lying without conscience.”

Why do I say that you have not answered this question? Bobby Chacko wrote, 1 Aug 2008, **If I am not mistaken I had answered this question before. If we can agree that the Law existed, naturally Sabbath was included; Sabbath became an issue only around 400 AD when it was slowly substituted to Sunday. The Jews over-did the Sabbath Commandment so much that Jesus had to undo the excess.** We are not agreeing that there was a law of Sabbath existed before Moses. Unfortunately, you insist that it was given at the Garden of Eden. Where is the verse that tells this? I am asking for it. Please do not ask me to agree on something, without giving the verse. Sabbath became an issue in the days of Moses. It was soon after that law was given. We read about it in Leviticus. You are wrong to say that the Sabbath became an issue only around 400 AD...(Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-10)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:21:56 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-10

...If it is in the law, then it is an issue. If it is in the law, then there is a consequence of not obeying that law. The law prescribes the punishment. We read that in Exodus 31. You are completely wrong and are in error on Sabbath. When you show the verse from the Bible, then I will retract my statement.

You cleverly quoted or referenced some verses to establish something. It started with, **REFERENCE TO THE LAW/SABBATH BEFORE Mt. Sinai:** Then you quoted Genesis 2:3, Mark 2:27, Genesis 26:5, Exodus 15:26, Exodus 16:28-30. Genesis 2:3 does not say that God established Sabbath Day for man to keep. Mark 2:27 states that man was not made for the Sabbath, but it was contrary to it. Genesis 26:5 does not say anything about Sabbath. Exodus 15:26, 16:28-30 do not apply before Moses.

It was very cleaver of you to change my question while giving the answer. My question was to provide the verse, not your interpretation, to conform to your requirement, “IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?” Now you are giving something **before Mt. Sinai.** What I asked for was to give a verse that tells that the Sabbath was established at Eden, as you wrote in an earlier posting. I consider this as an act of deception. Please do not use the art of rhetoric and the art of deception to establish your erroneous ideas that are derived from Miss White and others. Of course, “before Mt. Sinai” could go as back as the Garden of Eden. Nevertheless, your references do not go back, it only goes back to the wilderness journey of the children of Israel.

Citing Exodus 16:4 you wrote, **SABBATH COMMAND USED AS A TEST OF OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW:** This was during the wilderness journey of the children of Israel and was given to Moses. It does not say anything before Moses, or even in Eden.

(To be cont. Part-11)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:23:15 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-11

Citing Matthew 5:21, you wrote, **FOLLOWING INDICATE THE LAW WAS TRANSMITTED ORALLY TOO:** It is not against Sabbath. We are discussing about the law with respect to Sabbath as you insist that it was given at Eden. Where is the verse? We are not discussing about interpretations, We are interested, as you suggested, “ “IS IT WRTTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?”

You also wrote, 1 Aug 2008, **Sabbath was made at Eden. See Genesis chapter 2. The Bible does not state that the commandment was given then. However, Jewish thinkers believed that the Oral Law was given at Eden and was kept until Sinai. For example, Philo states that Abraham and the patriarchs were the Living Law. This helps us better understand how sin was defined prior to the written law.** Sabbath was not made in Eden. It is not stated that way in Genesis 2. We are not discussing about what the Jewish thinkers, like Philo, wrote or said. As Bobby Chacko suggested, we are interested in answering, “IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?” I did not ask what Philo thought or wrote. When you bring what Philo wrote, it is mute.

You also wrote, **From Cain to the time of Moses sin was rightfully called sin.** again, you are wrong. Sin came into this world through Adam and not from Cain (Romans 5).

(To be cont. Part-12)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:24:39 AM Close
Dear Sonny Varghese and Bobby Chacko,
Part-12

You also wrote, **At any rate the Bible clearly says that God instituted the Sabbath at creation in Eden. We also know that the weekly cycle continued from Eden and has been in existence till now. Day 7 was always been the Sabbath and will continue being the Sabbath because God made it so.** If it is clearly stated in the Bible that Sabbath was instituted in Eden, where do you read that. Is it in Miss White’s writings? If so, that is not the Word of God. Her writings are not the Bible. It is nothing but false teaching rooted in rebellion against God, by denying the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. The seventh day was not the Sabbath Day, till it was commanded to be so in Exodus and that was for the children of Israel. It was not established before Moses. It is not to be observed during the New Testament period. If you insist, please show the verse to answer your own requirement, “IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?”

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2008 2:48:36 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

John 4:22 (King James Version)
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for SALVATION IS OF THE JEWS.

"YOU CANNOT EAT THE CAKE AND HAVE IT TOO"

Exodus 12:49 (King James Version)

49 ONE LAW shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Aug 2008 7:08:34 AM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

What is the context of your posting of 6 Aug 2008 14:48:36? It does not contain the answer to my repeated question about the SDA statement that the Sabbath was instituted at Eden. Since I do not see the reference from the Wotrd of God, I assume that it is one of the things that the SDA made-up to mislead others, as well as the members of SDA.

You also wrote, **"YOU CANNOT EAT THE CAKE AND HAVE IT TOO"** Are you sure about this expression?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Aug 2008 7:12:48 AM Close
Dear Readers,

After reading Tinka's thread, I am starting a thread as a continuation to this. It is titled, "SABBATH VS. SUNDAY II" I hope she will be able to see this new thread on her mobile.

Please use that to continue postings that are related to this thread.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : unique364   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2017 6:24:56 AM Close

I heard a lot of opinions about death penalty and I don't know for sure whether it is good or not but sometimes really bad people should be dead and this is my truth http://livecustomwriting.com/blog/death-penalty-essay-should-it-be-abolished

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