it is shame for a woman to speak in the assembly. 1cor14:33-35

In Acts 2:11 we read this "...we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

This was reported by the audience who were listenning to the crowd of men and women on whom the Spirit of God had fallen. The Spirit of God prompted both men and women to speak wonderful things. Not just the men. So it is alright for a woman to get up in an appropriate assembly, and being filled with the Holy Spirit, declare the wonder works of the Lord in her life. This is what we commonly call 'testimony' that usually happens in Cottage Meetings.

But there is no example of women praying or preaching in public assembly meetings. Only men are exhorted to pray in the assembly and preach.

Yes. 

They can.

dear brethren , can you site an example from scripture

Mr. Tajacob.

No.  It was my opinion.

Dear brethren in Christ,

Nowadays this particular subject is again a controversial topic, but why this is again and again on the forum boards here, what are the intentions , when the scriptures is clear,.

The scriptures says like this  .

1 Corinthians 14

 ³³For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.  ³⁴Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.  ³⁵And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 

1 Timothy 2

 ¹¹Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.  ¹²But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.  ¹³For Adam was first formed, then Eve.  ¹⁴And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Are the above two passages  in  anway related to singing and giving testimony , what I personally understand , not to teach and ask questions when brethren are present. Because the reason the scriptures says why in the same verses below.

Yours in Christ

Sam

Well quoted and explained Bro. Sam !

@brethren  :

how they can, bible strictly denied that, if you get time please read I Cori 14.

Dear "real brethren"   I gat some free time today and read the chapter you pointed out to me.  Then I also read the title of this thread.   We are Not Talking about Sunday worship or bible study.    the thread is about cottage (house) meeting where woman should be able to say their testimony. (praying i may not encourage, but wont prohibit).      I think we the brethren are facing much bigger issues than this.

“whether sisters can pray / give testimony in assembly cottage meetings When brothers / elders are present”.

34 for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.  KJV

³⁴Let [your] women be silent in the assemblies  - Darby Translation

34  woman should remain silent in the churches. - NIV

Brethren women sing, testify in Sunday worship gatherings. Why they are not silent?? Or is it a double stardard?

realbrethren,

If it is so, why brethren women are allowed to sing and testify in worship gatherings??Philip's daughters were prophets!  Where did they prophecy? Oh! that is too much!  What is the contradiction here?  Is our(true brethren) understanding 'silent' means 'realsilent'?

Our "brethren" leaders will have to give account to God for depriving our sisters of praying and testifying for the Lord.

1. Women are instructed NOT to teach, agreed (and yes, they should teach children and fellow women)!

2. They are not allowed to usurp authority or take leadership.

BUT how in the world our people came to the conclussion that women should NOT PRAY and NOT TO GIVE TESTIMONY (in the congregation) is beyond me. Just because men say "amen" to a woman's prayer doesn't bring them under her leadership (as a matter of fact, you don't even have to say "amen"). How can just agreeing with someone mean they are being led? Why can't they get up on a sunday morning and WORSHIP? Oh.. forgot, women ought to be "silent". But they can sing, say "amen", play piano. But prayer, no no no no...

And we go to ANY extent to justify our unscriptural practices but never ever bother to look at the Scriptures ALONE to let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

@greatlybeloved: Public prayer is an act fo leadership.  When someone prays in public, he is leading hte assembled group in prayer.  Whether it be thanks for a meal or a public prayer in church. Because of that, prayer falls under the scope of 1 Timothy2:12. 

the passages in 1 cor 14 are governed by context and by verse 26.  Context is the public display of spiritual gifts.   verse 26 gives specific instructions as to the "when": "When you gather together".  the following verses give specific and clear instructions on the use and public display of church activities, specifically spirtual gifts.

@PC: Now that we have a context and a "when", let's consider what silence constitutes.  Is singing unauthorized?  I would submit that it doesn't fall under the scope of 1 Cor 14:34-35, firstly because the passage explicitly says "speak".  Secondly the passage's context is spiritual gifts.  Singing is not a spiritual gift.  What about testimonies then?  Testimonies is, very clearly, speaking, but giving a testimony isn't a spiritual gift.  So how do we treat this?  I would submit, brethren, that the clear use of the word "speak" prohibits testimonies here also. 

There is only one question, in my mind, that remains.  It never occurred to me until another brother raised it in a thread here on these boards a while back:  What constitutes a church meeting? 

Is it any meeting physically held in a local church?  I don't think so, since the early church (and often church plants) meet in homes.  Is it only sunday morning?  I don't think so either, since often assemblies have prayer meetings on other days, e.g. wednesday or Saturday, etc.   English assemblies have defined it as those meetings whose purpose is only for the Church--e.g. the Lord's supper and the mid-week prayer & bible study.  English assemblies traditionally have a break after their Lord's supper after which begins the "family bible hour".  This meeting is explicitly for the public--the unsaved and unchurched.  Since it's a meeting for the public, they conclude that hte Family Bible Hour isnot applicable to 1 Cor 14:26. Hence women are allowed to teach boys in Sunday School, etc. 

But how do we apply 1 Cor 14:26 to the KB tradition?  We don't explicitly break between the Lord's supper and the ministry time.  If there is a break, it's between the ministry and Sunday school.  Sunday school often has children of our non-brethren friends, whether CSI, catholics, mat thomites, jacobites, etc.

 Dear 'greatlybeloved'

On the contrary, the Lord will commend brethren fathers and leaders for their commitment to go by WHAT IS WRITTEN in the scriptures.

Eve was created for Adam, to be his help mate meet for his needs. Women are the weaker vessels that have to be upheld in high honor. So it is the man's responsibility to bring the worship to the Lord and in doing so, represent the women in his life (be that mothers, daughters or sisters). It is a shame for a woman to discredit the man in her life and approach God to do the responsibility that is entrusted to the man. In the same way, it is a shame for a man to hide behind the religious fervor of his wife and rely on her for leading worship at his home or church. 

In the OT, is there any woman who could put on a priest's dress and approach God's presence in the temple? Any woman who did that risked her own life. How much more in church should we honor the Word of God and its commandments!!! Brethren churches have the appropriate venue for women to teach, say testimony and pray - such as sunday school, cottage meetings, testimony meetings and prayer meetings. The decorum that we follow in our churches is in tune with the Word of God, and is something that the Lord is honored by and He will commend us for that.

As answer to the question "What constitutes a church meeting?" one must look at the TWO ordinances that Christ gave to the church:

1. Evangelism and Baptism - Matt 28:19

2. Lord's Table - 1 Cor 11:24, 25

Dear Joyboy,

[--  "Public prayer is an act fo leadership." --]

That is YOUR definition. Scripture does not say that. You can lead a prayer time (which is making the congregation to pray), but the prayer itself be it public or private is never an act of leadership.

We should not make a doctrine out of something not given in the Scriptures (which is what our "brethren" are guilty of).

John.

Dear Moses, 

[-- "On the contrary, the Lord will commend brethren fathers and leaders for their commitment to go by WHAT IS WRITTEN in the scriptures" --]

Can you tell me "what is written" in the Scriptures regarding women praying? I know women are not supposed to lead, not supposed to teach (except for kids and other women). But PRAYING!? What is written about women and prayer that the Lord would commend brethren for being committed to?

[-- "It is a shame for a woman to discredit the man in her life and approach God to do the responsibility that is entrusted to the man." --]

Is prayer entrusted to man alone? Leading is definitely entrusted to man alone, but PRAYER!? There is no such a thing called "leading in prayer". You can lead someone TO PRAY, but prayer itself is never an act of leading (which our brethren have made it out to be).

[-- "In the OT, is there any woman who could put on a priest's dress and approach God's presence in the temple?" --]

Brother, if you take OT scriptures to support your argument, you should be consistent. We have woman judge in OT and even women prophets, women are not only allowed to PRAY BUT ALSO TO PROPHECY (with head covered) - 1 Corinthians 11:5, 13. If the gift of prophecy has not ceased, even prophecying would have been allowed.

Just taking some verses out of context or showing OT "patterns" while ignoring others is a well known tactic of our brethren.

Please don't get me wrong. I grew in brethren assemblies, and I still go. But these unscriptural practices have to stop somewhere.

John.

 

Dear Joyboy,

[--  "Public prayer is an act fo leadership." --]

That is YOUR definition. Scripture does not say that. You can lead a prayer time (which is making the congregation to pray), but the prayer itself be it public or private is never an act of leadership.

We should not make a doctrine out of something not given in the Scriptures (which is what our "brethren" are guilty of).

John.

Where scripture is explicitly silent, we need to use principles of faith, practice and doctrine to make conclusions.  First, where I agree with you: prayer in and of itself is not an act of leadership.  Nor is private prayer what I'm referring to. 

But, anything done on behalf of, or in front of a group of believers in teh context of a church meeting while others are silent is done, strictly speaking, on behalf of those assembled.  For example, when a brother gets up to pray in the Lord's supper.  what are we supposed to do?  We are listening and worshipping along with that brother.  his prayers are echoed in our hearts because he is praying on behalf of the assembly.  When someone prays for a blessing on a meeting, what are we doing (or should be doing)? we pray with him sharing his requests in unity to pray for the blessing of the meeting on those assembled.

Leadership is used in the general sense, not as in a CEO leading a company or a general leading his troops.  But leadership in my context is "on behalf of".  REading 1 Cor 14, evreything mentioned there is to be done in order for the edification (KJV word) or strengthening (NIV word) of the church.  These are all done on behalf of, in front of, or for the church.  The same way, public prayer, while not explicitly mentioned in 1 Cor 14, is done on behalf of the people.  Whether in the context of the Lord's supper or the ministry meeting--it all falls under the scope of public exercise, falling under the instruction of 1  Cor 14:35.

Remember, many things are not mentioned by name in scripture, but we use Biblical mandates and principles to guide us. 

Dear John,

I was about to reply to your question on 'prayer' and noticed that 'joyboy' has replied with same ideas I was about to write. I fully agree with him. Prayer in public is indeed a leadership role, since the person praying is doing it ON BEHALF OF the entire congregation assembled and listening and assenting to the what is being said aloud. There is no example in the OT or NT of women taking such a role before God. Men however are exhorted to pray EVERYWHERE lifting up holy hands (1 Tim 2:8).

Dear brothers (Moses & Joyboy), 

The Scripture is never silent about woman's role in the congregation. Paul taught that women should NOT TEACH or LEAD. As for the rest of the activities in the congregation, they were NOT prohibited to participate.

1 Corinthians 11:5  But EVERY WOMAN THAT PRAYETH OR  PROPHESIETH  with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

 Both Pentecostals and Brethren (sorry for the capital B, but it IS intentional) have misinterpreted 1 Cor 14. 1 Corinthians 14:1  Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1. Now this instruction CANNOT be followed today fully. You can follow "follow after charity".. but no matter how much you desire, you CANNOT get a gift to PROPHESY!  Throughout the book of Acts, the believers HAD gifts including PROPHECY. This is NOT preaching, as I USED TO BELIEVE BEFORE., and as Scofield has said. It is prophecy plain and simple.  Agabus, and Philips daughters were all prophets, who prophesied. There is no prophet today, and if any claims to be so, he must be a false prophet. Prophets will return, when God shall begin to deal with the nation of Israel again.

2. Chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians is God's regulations on how the gifts of TONGUES and PROPHECY must be used. Now BOTH are not in existence today. What we are trying to do is to apply something that is irrelevant to the current dispensation. Things have CHANGED. When? After Acts 28, and by AD70 (temple destruction) the change was complete. Tongues did not cease when the Bible is completed. They ceased when Israel was set aside.

3. Those who insist on things NOT tobe done (women's speaking), do not bother to follow what is clearly taught MUST BE DONE! In the same chapter where it was taught that the women must keep silence (in the context of tongue speaking and prophesying), it is also said that TWO OR THREE PROPHETS speak, and others judge. Are we doing it? No! Show me one "Brethren" assembly where two or three PROPHETS speak. No, not 2 or 3 PREACHERS, but PROPHETS. 

CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT... that is the KEY! 

There is another issue. Headcovering must be used when women PRAY or PROPHESY. We should not go one word more or less than this. No one has a right to blame a woman without a head covering, if she IS NOT praying, or prophesying. 

 NB: I used to teach as most "Brethren" do before. I have changed my position, and make no apology for it. I was wrong, and may be still wrong in some things. No one is right, but the BIBLE. For God's sake, LEAVE YOUR ALLEGIANCE to the Brethren, Pentecostals, Bapists, etc., and stick WITH THE BIBLE... and when God shows the truth be open, and change!

 Dear John,

Please pay a bit more attention to thIs verse. 1 Corinthians 14:34  Let your women keep SILENCE in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to SPEAK; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Prophesying is indeed SPEAKING. While Paul allowed women to PROPHESY, he wanted them to cover their head. At the same time, he said it is a shame for a woman to SPEAK IN THE CHURCH (v.35). Paul therefore certainly silenced women from prophesying IN THE CHURCH. Philip's daughters did prophesy, but could have done it outside the church (gathering). Note that this church (assembly) here is a LOCAL gathering, not the universal Body of Christ.. What needs to be examined carefully is the headcovering. Paul taught it as a condition when a woman PRAYS or PROPHESIES.

The word SILENCE used in case of the women is also used for MEN, both in the context of tongues (v.28) and prophecy (v.30 -- hold his peace).

In Christ Jesus

Moses

Dear Moses (lemuelraj), 

How did you conclude "speak" to be "prophesy"? While generally speaking prophesy involves speaking, if we look at the immediate context of the given verse, prophesy is not even in the picture.

1 Corinthians 14:34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; BUT THEY ARE COMMANDED TO BE UNDER OBEDIENCE as also saith the law.

So the "speaking" is as opposed to "be under obedience". It probably have to do with women arguing or something like that. Prophesy is something that comes from the Spirit and I don't think they have any control on it. However the PROPHETS (i.e., those who have the gift of prophesy) when they SPEAK should maintain order (v.29). THAT SPEAKING may not necessarily be prophesy. That is why the OTHERS (I believe other prophets) will JUDGE.

So I don't think "speaking" is prophesy. Especially in the light of 1Cor 11:5. In that chapter Paul was correcting the Corinthians of things they were doing when they "come together" (v.17).

John.

It will be interesting to study what Paul was referring to when he says "as also saith the law..." (1Cor 14:34). Is there any OT scripture that prohibits women from speaking or something?

Dear John

As I said before, 1 Cor 14 is about tongues and prophesying. Both involve speaking. Paul is dealing with when and how to speak, whether in tongues, or prophesying. So when he prohibited women to speak, he meant both, tongues AND prophesying. Coming to the point that women are commanded to be under obedience, you must first contrast it with the instruction given to men. 2 or 3 were told to prophesy. If anything is revealed to another that is sitting, the one who is speaking must hold his peace to let the other man speak. But in case of the women, they must not do it. They should rather ask their husbands at home. As to JUDGING, it is to judge whether or not what is spoken is from God. As much as there was a gift of prophecy, there was also the gift of DISCERNING, and therefore others were told to judge.

In the context, that SPEAKING is indeed about prophesying. 1 Corinthians 14:29   Let the prophets SPEAK two or three, and let the other judge. The subject of prophecy continues until the end of the chapter. It is about who should prophesy, and how to prophesy (verses 29-40).

You said that speaking was not prophesying because Paul asked them to judge. You probably meant that if it was prophecy, then Paul would n't have told them to judge. But there is a clear instruction in the OT that a prophet must be judged (Deut 13), and also 1 Cor 12:1-3.

In Christ Jesus

Moses

In your opinion when & where ladies can say their testimony (what God has done for them in the past month) or pray for others.

Hi Lemuelraj,

You wrote

"Agabus, and Philips daughters were all prophets, who prophesied. There is no prophet today, and if any claims to be so, he must be a false prophet. Prophets will return, when God shall begin to deal with the nation of Israel again."and

"After Acts 28, and by AD70 (temple destruction) the change was complete. Tongues did not cease when the Bible is completed. They ceased when Israel was set aside"

I  am so amazed at your knowledge of knowing what happened at  AD 70  and what is today at 2010. what  a comprehensive knowledge - I can't believe!!

There is one more person knows the past and the present -GOD!

 "In your opinion when & where ladies can say their testimony (what God has done for them in the past month) or pray for others."

At home when the neighbor's come over; or when you have a Bible study session especially with unbelievers, or when you go for a party; or even when you drive down to Macy's with your best friends for shopping- options are endless.

You can also send and email to your church group and I have seen it very effective!!

We shouldn't restrict our testimonies to the walls of the church buildings, and also not restrict it for a month to be over. Tell the good news each and everyday.... so that others will see the way to the true living God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Moses, 

While your explanation is a possibility, there is another possibility that the women are asked to "not... to speak" in order for them to be "under obedience". So the "speaking" could well be related to disobedience. i.e., they spoke in a disobedient manner (may be like not agreeing with prophets or teachers, or arguing, etc.,)?

Even if you are correct in that women are not supposed to prophecy, it (speaking) has got nothing to do with PRAYER. It is clearly a man made custom. Do you agree with that?

John.

Thankyou, Paul Thomas.

Dear John,

What about breaking of the bread and passing the wine..would you find it acceptable for a woman in the church to do this role?

Dear John,

You seem to be on both sides of the issue. On 6 May 2010 06:26:30 you said, "We analyze the WORDS of the commandments so much, dissect them and dig so deep..", but then before on 30 Apr 2010 07:08:47 you said, "And we go to ANY extent to justify our unscriptural practices but never ever bother to look at the Scriptures ALONE to let the Scriptures speak for themselves." How can both of your observations be true? Only one can be true - either we follow the scriptures or we do not.

We will come back to the breaking the bread topic later. But allow me to ask another related question. in 1 Tim 2, why do you think the apostle added this explanation clause, which is v13 and v14, to the principle verse, which is v11 and v12?

Dear Moses,

[-- "You seem to be on both sides of the issue... Only one can be true - either we follow the scriptures or we do not." --]

Of-course we're supposed to follow Scriptures alone. When I say "We analyze the WORDS of the commandments...", I was referring to our over enthusiasm in trying to find what A PARTICULAR WORD mean like going to dictionaries, greek, hebrew, etc., and forgetting to see what the Scriptures say IN THE CONTEXT.

As for your question on 1 Tim 2, there is nothing about prayer there. Women are not to teach, not to "usurp authority over the man", but to "learn in silence with all subjection", etc., The reason obviously is Adam was formed FIRST and Eve was deceived. I don't know why you pointed me to this verse, there is nothing about prayer there. If you see any deeper meaning in that passage, please share, I'm open for correction.

I say it again, women are NOT TO TEACH and NOT TO LEAD (in the church). No denying that. But PRAYER!? How did we conclude that prayer is an act of leading?

John.

Dear John,

What , in your mind, would a woman have to do in church to cross the scriptural line that usurps authority over the man?

Bro Moses, 

[-- "What , in your mind, would a woman have to do in church to cross the scriptural line that usurps authority over the man?" --]

Is that some kind of trick question? What ever that has to do with leading and teaching will make the woman cross that line. And prayer doesn't come under any of the above categories.

Why don't you give your reasons in concluding that prayer crosses the line that usurp authority over the man?

John.

Dear John,

I am not at all interested in "tricking" you. Since you said that women can pray in church and even break the bread and pass the wine, I was wondering where you draw the line of woman usurping authority over the man.

In 1 Cor 2:15 Paul says "But he who is spiritual judges all things.." In 1 Cor 11:13 Paul says "Judge among yourselves..". So in following this direction, I am just asking your judgment on what a woman can do in church to usurp the authority over man? I have my way of interpreting the verses in question which is more consistent with what majority of brethren churches practice. I am just asking for your opinion, which you have every right to hold.

Hello all,

I am new to this forum so excuse my ignorance. Recently, a friend pointed out to me something regarding this very topic. I had not noticed this before but it did cause some confusion. His argument was that in the verses from 1 Timothy 2 : 8 onwards, Paul uses the pronoun I. Therefore, we cannot be sure if Paul was making a general statement of his own desire (based on what he saw as the order of creation) or somewhat of an enduring principle of Christian worship.

⁸I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

 ⁹I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, ¹⁰but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

 ¹¹A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. ¹²I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Thanks,

j.John

Dear John (j.john), 

Even though we have differences of opinions as to what Paul meant, I don't think anyone would say Paul's statements are merely his opinions and should not be taken as Scriptural instruction.

Paul was an Apostle of Lord Jesus Christ by the will of God! The AUTHORITY was given to Paul for edification (2 Cor 10:8) and he could give his opinion (judgement) even when there was no explicit commandment from the Lord (1 Cor 7:25) and he clearly told us that he was using his judgement.

When it comes from an Apostle of the Lord (especially for gentiles), we better pay attention! Those are as good as the direct commandments from the Lord as Paul was filled by the Holy Spirit!

John.

Dear Mr. Koshy,

I am interested in learning more about this word SWZOMAI to understand how you gave the interpretation of the word in your post above. Would another thread be appropriate? How should the study start?

Praise the Lord Dear Brothers,

Never follow our own self definition for bible doctrines,we should never change a single word from the bible,some will say some scriptures are not for us its for corithians and other believers in those ages, if its correct we should completely avoid bible not a part,they says history says their culture was differrent and ours different so we should never follow those but as for me my word of God is true eternal and is for me and all.never allow sisters to teach any men in the church,and never allow them to sit in the church uncovered wether from america ,italy or any part of the world.we should never run over the nation when they run for eternal fire thank you praise the lord ,Amen 



VISHUDHAN MARUDE SARVA SABHAYILUMENNAPOLE  STHREEKAL SABHAYIL  MINDATHIRIKKATTE.  SABHA VISHUDHAN MARUDETHANENKIL AVAR MINTHE IRIKKANAM , 

Most of us forget to read the context of the passages mentioned her in Corinthinas and Timothy.

In Coirthians the issue was whether woman can pray or prohesy? In Timothy the issue was whether woman could speak.

According to my understanding from 1 Corinthians 14 Paul says in vs 5 " But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head" . The requirement for a woman to pray is when she prays she has to have her head covered.

In Timothy the woman is not allowed to speak which means she cannot excercise authority over man in teaching or exhorting.

Both the portions are clear . If a woman wants to pray or give a testimony she beeds to cover her hair and she should not excercise authority or teaching in any ways in the presence of elders or men.