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Keralabrethren.net: Sisters' Forum: Increased trend of using ornaments

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# 00022 :  Increased trend of using ornaments
Among the brethren sisters, especially those who are residing outside Kerala, there is an increase trend of using ornaments as well as expensive clothings which even surpass the aristocratic life of worldly people.
Post by : Saly Philip  View Profile    since : 13 Jul 2001


Reply by : A Sister   View Profile   Since : 16 Jul 2001 10:16:29 AM Close
The specification of brethren sisters by Sr. Sally infers even to sisters dwelling within Kerala amidst very strict brethren believers and many turn a blind eye towards them, as it cannot be controlled.

But sad to ponder that how could these Kerala brethren sisters go to grab these worldly materials forsaken by their parents in the past. Is it not very similar to the dogs that go back to lick its vomit?

But souls that truly love their Savior won't go back to this vomited stuff but they would rather try to grab these opportunities to give their testimony by being unique especially without these external glamour.

Can any true believer sister have the intuition to add her beauty by such worldly methodologies to give her the identity as a Child of God in an easy manner for the on looking audience around her?
It is those sister who lack time to be on their knees (for prayers) who gain their valuable time for abstracting materialistic world. For opening the eyes of such sisters we can only pray that they might not be like the virgins who didn't carry the flask of oil with them to meet the Bridegroom (Matt 25:4) rather had went to purchase the oil when the Bridegroom came (might be many such sisters are also busy doing some purchasing of the best possible gold rings, wealthiest clothes or outfits to match the unsaved aristocratic generation when the Christ cometh to take His Church).

Be on alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.(Matthew 25:13)

Also none of us asked to gird ourselves with some gold and the best possible clothes which are perishing but with... Read (Ephesians 6:10-19)

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Reply by : James samuel   View Profile   Since : 17 Aug 2001 4:30:12 PM Close
Now a days most of our sisters are interested in wearing ornaments , our brothers are encouraging them also.Because we lost our spiritual view,None of our leaders want to give a clear picture on this subject. All are closing their eyes. I published a small book in this subject, If you can read malayalam ,and if you are actually interested in it please write- Book name--- NINGALUDE SAREERAM KONDU DAIVATHE MAHATWAPPEDUTHUVIN. p. JAMES SAMUEL THONDIYATHU VEETIL KALLISSERY 689124 KERALA This book is free in india.
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Reply by : jjphilip   View Profile   Since : 21 Aug 2001 12:55:41 PM Close
You are right in saying that ornamental usage has increased. Then again today's young women do not know the whole meaning is what is to be brethren. The traditions and values of our forefathers have been forgotten by those who should be leading these young women and men. Those who lead should be the ones who teach these things and they themselves use ornaments so this is what they see and this is what they do. Other factors involved are also due to the world they live in and pressures involved in that society. I have to admit that I myself wear a wedding ring due to the fact that I do work. In the society that I work and live in, the ring is a symbol of my faithfulness to my husband. I think wearing a ring does not harm my faith in anyway. I do not wear it to make myself more beautiful. That is what brethren women should understand. I also don't think that wearing an expensive sari or any other clothing makes your spiritual side decline. I think that people should wear what they can afford and enjoy themselves, but never forget the God who makes these things possible. When you come for worship, it is not these things that you should concentrate on...what someone else is wearing, or what you are wearing...but what our purpose is when we are in the presence of God.
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Reply by : THANKAMMA   View Profile   Since : 27 Aug 2001 12:56:10 PM Close
If anybody born and brought up in brethren community dont know the brethren teachings they cannot blame others for that.the fact is they are not interested in it and they are more interested in something else. Nobody can blame the leaders only, Now a days most of our elders are in the seat ony because of their age or because of their financial status . A believer is doing some thing wrong and blaming the society and circumstance is not Biblical. If somebody says wearing the ring is the symbol of faithfulness towards their husband it means those who are not wearing the ring are not at all faithfull. They may be prostituits. By wearing a cross now anybody can say I am faithful to jesus . Better wear a "mangalya suthra (minnu) to show the the faithfulness towards the husband, or wear a slave band also so that you can say that my husband is my master.Can anybody say the ring they are wearing days or months after the marriage is the wedding ring. some think wearing a ring willnot hurt their faiith I think smoking or drinking willnot harm my faith also.Thatis why many catholic priests are using alcohol.Is it necessary to wear a gold ring only to show the faithfullness. Weshould know in India different types of stones are using on rings. I have a hindu friend who is wearing more than one ring in one finger. He got total 9 rings. According to him there is astrological value for these rings and stones.It saves him from illness, it saves him from enemies etc; etc; same as raksha. The stones are the symbols for various grahas also. some are engraved with the symbol of pagan gods.
Many people want to justify their wrong doings,for that they are always insisting others to do what they are doing . But before eating the vomited things try to explain it from the Bible ,Not from your own imagination.
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Reply by : calmdown   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2001 6:55:09 AM Close
I don't think the previous comment was meant in the way you took it Thankamma. The wearing of the ring is not a sign of faithfulness, but a reminder to others that you are married. Many people in this day and age outside of the brethren world do look at these things when engaging in friendly relationships with man or woman. You took the whole comment in the wrong context. The world is not what it used to be. I say that Brethren themselves are not brethren anymore. They should be called something else. They do not follow any of the rules that our forefathers have used. Thankamma there is no need to get so uptight, but rather you need to open up your eyes and see what is going on in the world rather than being quick to judge. You may live in a brethren world that is so perfect, but many other fellow believers do not live in such a world. What you face is not what others face. Sometimes they have to adjust accordingly. Wearing a wedding ring in this present day with all immoralities around is not a sin. Wonderful for you if you live in such a world that you do not encounter such immoralities, but please be understanding of others. I do admit that some believers do take it over board with the jewelry, but to others it is just something to remind their coworkers and friends and anyone else they come in contact with that they have made a vow before man and God to be faithful to their husband and wife.

Thanks

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Reply by : Anon   View Profile   Since : 7 Sep 2001 9:35:19 AM Close
I find it interesting that wearing ornaments is equated with spirituality or lack thereof. Scripture says beauty should not come from outward adornment. It does not forbid it. You may argue that it is implied or that by the spirit of the passage, one should refrain from wearing ornaments.

My understanding of ornaments in Kerala brethren thinking was to distinguish ourselves from those around us. It is a valid thought. However, if this is our sole distinction, rather than our works as James teaches in James 2, then we have greater problems than wearing or not wearing ornaments.

I also find it interesting that these same people who are adamant about women not wearing ornaments are indifferent about women working while their children are at day care/babysitters or in front of the television.

Just a couple observations.

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Reply by : justcurious   View Profile   Since : 14 Sep 2001 5:33:04 AM Close
exactly...i agree with you on that. I don't know know why Thankamma was so angry when she wrote the earlier note. I agree with you anon on what you say.
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Reply by : Thankamma   View Profile   Since : 16 Sep 2001 2:48:56 AM Close
Sorry , Thankamma is not angry .Only just trying to express my feeling .My beloved sisters ,We started with rings, now we got all the ugly ornaments like others .we stoped our family prayers . Our houses are changed into cinima halls .What "calmdown" told is correct "Bretheren themselves are not bretheren any more They should be called something else"But I cannot agree with "Anon"Is James 2 saying about wedding ring. Is Bible prohibiting women from working ."Just curious" if you are actually serious abuot this subject try to prove from old or new testament that what our forefathers taught about using ornaments is not correct.Iam waiting to heare from you.
Thanks
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Reply by : johnson t ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2001 8:09:45 AM Close
dear sisters
when we become true believers automaticly god will provide all the help to live in this world.wearig or not wearing isimmeterial.donot find or try to see the gods verses to wear the gold. we know from the inner heart what is right or wrong.follow the gods instruction
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Reply by : johnson t ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 3 Oct 2001 11:08:50 PM Close
dear sisters,
your valuable sugesns r invited regrding wearing gold.whether we should wear it or not
johnson.t.ponmanissery
branch manager
catholic syrian bank
chembur
bombay
400 071
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Reply by : Blessy   View Profile   Since : 4 Oct 2001 12:13:49 AM Close
We cannot say wearing or not wearing of ornaments is immeterial,because when you wear an year ring you are following the way of those who started this practice as a symbol of their dedication to a pagan god.Minnu of kerala is the symbol of sex worshipper. If you can go through religious encyclopedia you can find lot of things like that. I suggest Johnson ponmanissery to talk this subject here in sistres page.what is the use if everybody is writing to you.Your first sentance itself is not correct. God will not provide everything automatically.From Gods word we have to find out the will of God .Try to prove from Bible what is right and what is wrong and leave this discussion for sisters.
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Reply by : Glorykutty   View Profile   Since : 4 Oct 2001 9:44:09 PM Close
If Johnson ponmanissery think a doctrinal subject can be decided according to the suggestion of some sisters or brothers he is totaly wrong.If anybody want to say anything ,say it from the Bible.We are Brethrens .we are not automatic christians.
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Reply by : m.a.jos trichur   View Profile   Since : 5 Oct 2001 6:15:31 PM Close
it is very clear when we examine the scripture that lord expect his children to lead their life with simplicity.ornamenthave no place in simplicity.so we can well advice our people to avoid it. if one refuse the advice and wear it we have no scripture to support the action of excommunication.
m a jos
maliyekkal house
swatantra nagar
anchery.p.o.
trichur
680 006
kerala
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Reply by : johnson t ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 5 Oct 2001 6:36:11 PM Close
dear sisters'
if i am wrong i apologise
i dont have much doctrinal knowledge.what i wrote is according to my small very small knowledge.
may be i am wrong.one thing i know .work for the god.he will work for us.no doubt.donot look our materiel things.he will work for us.he will provide everything.he knows everything for me.i am sure about it. i experienced it.

MANNILAE MOHANGALONNUMA..........KARTHAVAE

LOK BACK TO THE BROTHERS WHO LEAD US
BEING A PERSON COME FROM OTHER BACK GOUND I AM VERY SURE ,I CAN SAY HE LEAD ME/WHEN I BECAME A BELIEVER HE PROVIDED EVERYTHING
JOHNSON.T.PONMANISSERY
BRANCH MANAGER
CATHOLIC SYRIAN BANK
CHEMBUR
BOMBAY
400 071

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Reply by : anon   View Profile   Since : 11 Oct 2001 2:27:07 AM Close
To respond to M A Jos of Trichur first:

A call to simplicity (as you see it) implies no ornaments. Can we then take this simplicity further and live as the Amish and Mennonites do? You cannot pick and choose which items of simplicity you want to keep. If we're to throw out ornaments solely because of simplicity, we must also throw away our refridgerators, ovens, stoves, microwaves, phones (I could go on).

To all who say wearing ornaments is wrong, let us examine scripture.

1 Timothy 2:9-10 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

Before we review the NT scriptures, it is very significant to note that in the OT no restriction of whatever kind is given regarding ornaments. In fact, we see God telling the Israelite women to freely accept the jewels and gold of their Egyptian slave-masters when they flee Egypt. If God Himself is saying this, we know that it cannot be sin, nor sinful to wear or own such things, for God does not tempt with evil (James 1:13). Consider also the story of Abraham’s servant Eliazar finding Rebekah. What was his gift to her? Gold bracelets and ear rings, silver and also of raiment (Gen 24).

Noting this, it is important, then, to establish from the outset that owning and/or wearing ornaments is not wrong or sinful. If it was, God would not have told the Israelites to take these things from the Egyptians, for God does not tempt with evil, nor does is he tempted (James 1:13).

Let us turn our attention to the NT. Paul, in his letter to Timothy (see above) talks about ornaments and beauty of the women. What does he say? Paul teaches that beauty should not come from the outside, but the inside. Remember Samuel and the selection of king when he went to visit Jesse’s family? God looks out the inside, but man on the outside. We can therefore conclude that wearing ornaments is not a sign of a lack of spirituality. It is worth noting, however, that man does look on the outside. This is why our forefathers in the Brethren movement in Kerala taught not to wear ornaments. It was to distinguish ourselves from those around us. It is important to notice further that this distinction can still be seen in Kerala. So it can be argued quite successfully that wearing ornaments in Kerala (or other parts of India) is not a good idea (notice I didn’t say wrong!).

When we use this cultural argument, that is the idea of distinguishing ourselves from those around us, we must see culture and its various forms to decide what we should do. In the middle east, countries such as Kuwait, UAE, etc. If a woman does not wear a wedding ring, she is thought to be hiding the fact that she is married. It is actually a hindrance to her testimony for her not to wear a ring! In Kerala, it could be seen as a bad testimony (confusing with those around) to wear a ring! Notice the clear polar opposites. In North America (where I reside), ornaments or lack thereof (wedding or otherwise) doesn’t constitute any sort of implication. That is to say, if one is wearing some ornaments, then one can’t automatically conclude his/her faith or marital status or whatever. The reverse is also true. What should be done here? Consider what Paul has to say in 1 Corinthians. He is addressing the issue of eating meat sacrificed unto idols. He doesn’t forbid it, but offers 2 principles: Act according to your own conscience and do not cause others to stumble. The principles are clear and can be applied to wearing ornaments. Since wearing ornaments is not sin (as we established earlier), it is up to our own individual consciences to decide what to do. Also we must be aware of those around us and act cautiously so as not to cause a brother or sister to stumble.

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Reply by : Stanley   View Profile   Since : 11 Oct 2001 2:41:27 AM Close
I agree with anon. It is good to be having some scriptures examined
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Reply by : Jessie George   View Profile   Since : 11 Oct 2001 4:11:46 AM Close
I too am liking what anon is telling. I live in the gulf and must wear a wedding ring. My first day on job I was asked why i am not wearing ring.

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Reply by : Melinta Martin   View Profile   Since : 11 Oct 2001 10:31:47 PM Close
Thank you M A Jos
I dont know about which scripture you are talking.
Anyway I agree with you,because I am also wearing simple ornaments only. Even the cross I am using is not pure gold , it is plating only. But my problem is why the Brethren assembly excommunicated my husband . Ofcourse some time he is smoking and in rare case he is chewing tobacco. Is this unscriptual, Is there any scripture for his excommunication.
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Reply by : JAMES   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2001 4:18:22 AM Close
I am happy because Anon is the first one started talking from scripture. His first referance is 1 thimo 2:9-10 " In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in moderst apparel with shameface and sobriely, not with broided hair , or gold orpearls, or costly array"
I can understand this as not with broided hair, not with gold , not with pearls, or not with costly array. is this not the meaning.
According to anon" it is very significant to note that in the O T no restriction of what ever kind is given regarding ornaments. " Is this a correct statement. Let us turn to Exodus 33:5-6. "For the LORD had said unto moses , say unto the children of Israel , you are a stiff necked people, I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment and consume thee, therefore NOW PUT THY ORNAMENTS FROM THEE that Imay know what to do unto thee.And the children of israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the mount horeb" God himself told to remove the ornaments and they removed it,If they are wearing it again thy are disobaying God.
Why they took ornaments from Egyptians?
Please read Exodus 35:36 . " And the children of israel did according to the word of Moses, and borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver and jewels of gold and raiment. And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of Egyptians , so that they lent unto them such things as they required . AND THEY SPOILDE THE EGYPTIANS." It was gods plan to spoil the Egyptians and they want to get the wages of the work what they did in Egypt.
But what the Isrelies did with the ornaments?
Please read Exodus 32:2-4 " And Aron said unto them , break off the golfen ear rings which are in the ears of your wives ,of your sons, and your daughters, and bring them unto me.And all the people break of the GOLDEN EAR RINGS and brought them unto Aron, And he received them at their hand and fashioned with a graving tool.After he had made it a molten calf and they said these be thy god o Israel which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt"
Actually these ornaments belonged to the calf worshippers. The ear ring was the symbol of the Egyptions for their dedication to the calf god. Now by wearing this they turned to calf god. Now any of us want keep the momory or symbol of idols on our body?.
Anon says "consider also the story of Abrahams servent Eliazer finding Rebekah" Please note that Bible is not saying anything about Eliazer here in Gensis 24. When we are not sure how we can say it is Eliazer . Yes I agree that it was the custom at that time to give presents to the parents and the bride, that is what the servent did. Also please remember who was Rebekah ,read Gensis 24:48" ---which had led me in the right way to take my masters brothers daughter unto his son" Can we follow this relationship also in our marriages, will our church conduct close relatives marriage or we need ornaments only?
Abraham ,Jacob all had more than one wife,can we follow this practice also ?
Anon again and again repeating James 1:13. as a justification for wearing ornaments.But not saying anything about the next verse. ie James 1:14. It says "But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust,and enticed".This is what happened in Aden, this is what happened in the wilderness for Israel. This is what happening today to everybody.God made the tree in Aden .
God made the fruit on it but WHY???.
Ornaments what the people are using is directly connected with idol worship.Please check the repley given in this debate by Blessy.
God looks inside or heart is absolutley correct . But it does not mean God looks inside only.Itis not giving us licence to do anything . He is looking for the fruits. We must bear good fruit.Fruot is bearing outside.
While talking this subject one thing we are always forgetting, not only women but men are also wearing ornaments .not oly gold or silver but some type of nuts(rudraksham) bone, tiger nails, hair on the tail of the elephant , teeth of tiger all these things are coming in the list of ornaments.
If you are a believer and your aim is to follow the path of Jesus I am sure you will not show interest in the ornaments.Food is a must for all but if you are giving more importance in eating it is wrong.
If our forefathers taught to avoid ornaments only for distinguishing bretherns from others was that distinguishing enough for house wives only. why not something for men also,Ladies were always in the house at that time. this is not an accaptable argument and you (Anon) cannot produce any evidence from the writings of our fathers.
A believer is not bothered about kuwait U.A.E Or America. Kuwaitti women is not only wearing wedding ring but she is also wearing BURKHA . Why you are not supporting it. In north india if a women is not applying kumkumam on her forehead it means she is without a husband. Why you are not advicing our sisters to follow this practices also. In kerala a women is not wearing a minnu it means she is unmarried. Why you are not suggesting our church to start this practice also.There are thousands of things like this . Do we think we can lead a proper christian life by following the pagans.
In 1 cori 8:13 appostile paul deciding that " I will eat no flush while the World standeth" If paul starts eating it again what we will say about him. Dear sisters as well as brothers once we decided the same about ornaments.,and now we want to bring it back in our assembly? No it is not good. It is the remains of idole worshippers leave it for ever
Please read Jermiah 35
Thank you all in the name of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.

MARANATHA

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Reply by : BEN   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2001 11:22:06 AM Close
People start talking about ornaments then ends with wedding ring WHY??. IF somebody want to wear a ring is it necessary to wear gold ring only. I know many brethrens are not even taking their Bible for prayer meetings. They dont want show themselves as christian to others. In kerala we started the practice of taking bible while going for meetings , avoiding ornaments etc etc,But now most of the other denominations are following it .For the Keralite penticostals who are working all over the world have no problem in avoding ornaments.(This practice thy got from us only ) I think this is the reason they are increasing . we are preaching something and doing something else.Most of the Bretheren dont want lead a seperated life . I can read the mind of many people from theses pages. They are not happy with the brethren teachings.Ok if it is very very necessary to wear a wedding ring , wear it in the office ,is it necessary to wear it in the church also.Do you think what mental effect it makes on others.
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Reply by : johnson t ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2001 9:47:52 PM Close
thank you all
i left all the ornaments when i became a blvr.
all you believers are thinking that i took a wrong decision.
you tell me what i should do
please
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Reply by : Blessy   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2001 11:17:07 PM Close
What ever you done is 100 percent correct. But you have the responsibility to explain others why you did so .We are talking that only.
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Reply by : anon   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2001 5:04:43 AM Close
Brothers and sisters:

Is it wise to wear ornaments? The answer should be relatively easy for a believer to make. One should ask him/herself “If I wear ornaments, am I going to compromise my testimony? Will I offend? Will I cause someone to stumble?” If the answer to any of these is questions "yes" then DO NOT wear ornaments. It is that simple! However, if the answer to ALL of these questions is “no”, then there is no scriptural restriction to wear them.

Is it sinful to wear ornaments? The answer, brothers and sisters, is this: It IS NOT sinful or wrong to wear ornaments.

Let us establish 2 principles that we will use in this article:

1. If God instructs in scripture "how to" do an action, that that action is not sin. If that action were sin, then God would be teaching us how to sin. That cannot be since that contradicts the very nature of God.
2. God's creation and instructions are perfect when He gives them. However, man can distort and abuse them making a mockery of God's original design.

Let's use principle 2 to examine our brother James's post above. He asks if Jacob has 2 wives are we to follow Jacob's example? Clearly in Genesis, God lays the principle of marriage: a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave unto his wife (not wives!). Therefore Jacob and all those that had multiple wives were distorting God's intention for marriage and were thereby sinning.

Let's examine principle 1 in relation to ornaments. God instructed the Israelites to take them from the Egyptians. Therefore we can conclude that owning them IS NOT sinful. Secondly, Egypt was the most powerful, the richest empire in the world at that time of history. If God wanted the Israelites to take their wages (as James says above) then he could have instructed them to take anything. In fact we see that He included ornaments in that list. If wearing ornaments were wrong, then God would not have included them in that list!!

We see that further on in the Exodus story, the Israelites misuse their ornaments to make the calf. Brother James correctly points out that God instructed them to cast them out. However, this doesn't prove anything except that man can corrupt what God created. (Principle 2). If God was telling them to cast off their ornaments because they were sinful, then He would be contradicting himself! Something doesn’t magically become sin all of a sudden. We teach that sin is absolute.

Is it wise for believers to wear ornaments? Maybe not.

But let me ask all of you some questions:

1. Do you wear a watch? Is it a Seiko or some other well-made (or expensive) watch? A watch is considered an ornament. Look at where they are sold in the stores. They are in the jewelry departments! Why not buy simple watches? We say we buy Seiko because they will last. Who cares? Why not buy a Timex? They last a long time too! It is hypocritical to say we should not wear ornaments and then we ourselves wear expensive ornaments on our wrists.

Our forefathers also taught that we should lead simple lives. My parents tell me that in their homes, there was no homework on Saturday nights for the children. Saturday night was to prepare for worship. Our forefathers lived in simple houses. Now what do we see? The houses I see in Kerala are bigger that those I see in North America. The furnishings I see inside these houses are also expensive. Why not build houses that are big enough for our families, and furnish them with just what is needed for our families?

Our forefathers wore simple clothes. Our "foremothers" never wore fancy saris, even for their weddings. Now if you go to a wedding, in India or in North America, the guests and bride put on a fashion show with the quality or their clothes! It is completely contrary to what our parents taught.

What about careers and jobs? Our forefathers taught that there should be no working or homework on Saturday night. Saturday night was only to prepare for worship. Now what do we see? Many of our brothers and sisters work on Saturdays and Sundays, not because they have to, but because they will get bonus pay if they do! Yet these are the same people who are so adamant about how our forefathers taught about jewelry.

Brothers and sisters, we must end the hypocrisy.

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Reply by : johnson.t.ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2001 6:26:35 PM Close
to syster blessy politely
you are telling 100 percent my decision is correct
please explain me the correctnes. i doubt that i have taken a wrong decision
johnson.t.ponmanissery
branch manager
catholic syrian bank
chembur
bombay
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Reply by : Blessy   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2001 10:09:10 PM Close
Thank you Anon for writing the answer to James.We belive scripture is the answer for all our doubts.If we read Jer:35 we will get avery clear picture about Gods will in that subject. The main reason of our objection for ornaments is that it is is perfectly related to idol worship.Open your mind and think about it. New generation want liberalization . I am sure this will spoil us. If you are very sure try to cut each and every points of james and the teaching of our forefathers .Or please stop this subject.
I think this subject is very clear to everybody thanks James for the clarification.
Attn : Johnson Ponmanissery-
You wrote" I left all the ornaments when I became a believer" I told this decision is 100 percent correct
Thank you all in the name of our LORD JESUS CHRIST
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Reply by : Ben   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2001 12:32:19 AM Close
"And they gave unto Jacob all the strange gods which were in their hand and all their ear rings which were in their ears and Jacob hid them under the oak,which was by shechem" Gensis 35:4
Now the brethrens want to dig it out Is this good
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Reply by : James   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2001 7:12:33 AM Close
I am not Interested for any argument. If anybody want to know more about this subject, Please read my book (ref reply No 2)Or please "E" mail
prarthanadwani@hotmail.com
Thank You all
P. James Samuel
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Reply by : believer   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2001 4:16:55 PM Close
Attn: Melinta Martin
If u do not know about which scriptures it is discussed then wish that at least u know about 'SALAVATION-everlasting life' in JOHN 3:16 at first point.
If ur husband is excommunicated from Brethren and yet u r not though u r not saved then it implies that even u ought to be careful.Hence BEWARE for ur excommunication from the kingdom of God

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Reply by : johnson t ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2001 7:01:17 PM Close
thank you all
one thing i know that we should live a very simple life in this world.we know from our inner heart how we should live in this world.we have very good strong background.
i see from the life of many old generation.take the example of c.t.mathayichan,who was an inspiring persanality.at the time of his death he was having very little house hold articles and a cow.he asked to sell and repay his debt.at the age of 41 he passed away.
k.v.simon told about him evangelist who worked without greedines
dr.t.e esow told eastern hill side churhes history is his history
e.p.vergese told he was the lamp of eastern side churches

v.k.varkey told evangelist who can face any height of starving
p.c.vekey told he was like gayas to treat guests and appollos for teachig scriptures
he worked only for 8 years in valakom
valakom beleivers should be proud of him
they can say our mathayichan........
i dont have that background. i am coming from ca. background
by knowing this i am realy excited.so i donot know why now a days people are running for gold
see the history of people lead you
thank u
johnson t ponmanissery
branch manager
catholic syrian bank
chembur
bombay

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Reply by : johnson.t.ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2001 2:24:32 PM Close
dear sisters,
in continuation to the previous message please note that when there was an occasion to take a photograph of workers together mathayichan was not having a shirt to wear.so he was posing for the photograph by wearing 'tholmundu' on his shoulder.
you see how he suffered for the lord.
so donot forget all these things.
johnson.t.ponmanissery
branch manager
catholic syrian bank
chembur
bombay
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Reply by :   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2001 8:28:56 PM Close
Attn: M a Jos /Believer

If you have no answer for the question ,dont shy to say I dont know.I am asking something and you are answering something else.My question is-- if there no scripture for my ex communication.How the Brethren assembly can ex communicate my husband for smoking. Give me the answer , Then I will ask you more questions.
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Reply by : Jessy   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2001 8:41:15 PM Close
I advice Johnson T Ponmanissery To stay in the subject .
( Ornaments)No need of printing your adress again and again.
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Reply by : johnson t ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2001 10:29:48 PM Close
dear sister,
brother m.a.jos does not have his own computer in his house.
i shall ask him to give you a suitable reply to you sister.
i can telephone to him.i am not wellversed with theology.i am an ordinary beleiver with very small knowledge.i asked
m a jos to give his opinion regarding wearing of ornaments.
he gave me the write up.i have put the same.i will ask him to reply.
johnson.t.ponmanissery
branch manager
catholic syrian bank
chembur
bombay
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Reply by : johnson.t.ponmanissery   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2001 11:45:14 AM Close
to dear sr. jessy politely
u could not understand that what i was writing about mathayichan.please see his personal belongings at the time of his death.absolutely no gold and expensive belongings.his asset was what others told about him.that is mathayichans ornamental things.his gold chain was his 'tholmundu'.i am still staying with tthe topic. u should see the leaders who lived and lead u to this state.they were not having std phone,cell phone,e.mail,news paper and tv etc.but they worked for u.we should be proud of them. but we ...we....are discussing about wearing of gold orna...even now i am having my chain,ring,bracelet in gold.but i dont have the desire to wear it.i left all things,but keptin the locker.by reading the personal history of many leaders i am thrilled.but some belvrs are running to find the verses how we can wear the ornaments.
johnson.t.ponmanissery
branch manager
catholic syrian bank
chembur
bombay

i like to show my identity every where that is writing the add.

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Reply by : Mathew Varghese   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2001 8:04:21 PM Close
Dear Sisters,

Wearing ornaments is an unwanted subject to bring for discussion. We Brethren are not following all the rules our forfathers showed us. We can see late night TV shows, wear costly watches, dresses etc.etc... Please do not mix God's word with ornaments. I am attending a Bible Chapel in Canada last 2-3 years and all our sisters are wearing ornaments. I haven't seen any problem in this church because of ornaments.Read Mathew Ch13&14. Don't create 100% Holy Men in our churches. God will judge good and bad in the end.
Mathew Varghese
36 Prouse Drive
Brampton, L6V 3A8
Canada

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Reply by : Elsy Eapen   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2001 10:05:26 PM Close
Still there are few people among Brethrens who wish to lead a christian life as much as they can, for them this subject (ornaments) is very important.To follow our forfathers is not very important .But we must follow JESUS as much as we can.
some among the Brethrens are not regular in churches, not reading Bible or not even praying to God ,it dosnt mean that we want to follow them.We have the right to oppose the unscriptual attitude .
Mr Mathew - can you please explain why we dont want to mix Gods word with ornaments.
We all may have lot of catholic friends, If you ask them they will say-- we are not seeing any problem in worshiping Mary or praying to the saints or in child baptism etc; Only when they are opening their eyes towards Gods Word then only they can understand what is Biblical and what is non Biblical.
Mr Mathew-- I am not getting anything from Mathew 13&14 in this subject , Can you please explain it for me.
No man can create a holy man or woman, But few of us still think It is our responsibility to advice others- not only in this subject (ornaments) but also In all un Biblical teachings of diffrent denominations.
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Reply by : thomas   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2001 11:13:18 PM Close
DearSisters
we can make a tie up with
alappat
alukkas
chemmannur
josco
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Reply by : Jessy   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2001 1:18:40 PM Close
Why the sisters only tie up with jewelery shops Let our liberal teachers & modern elders do that.so that we can do some hole sale business
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Reply by : Thankamma   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2001 1:27:29 PM Close
I can see more brothers than sisters fighting for ornaments . I dont know why???? can they call as "voice of wives"
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Reply by : thomas   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2001 2:20:18 PM Close
DEAR JESSY;
ALL WE CAN MAKE TIE UP WITH JEWLLERY SHOPS.
PREMIUM SHIRTS AND SARIS,JEWELLERRIES.
NOTHING IS BANNED.INCLUDING ALCAHOL,PAN ETC...
BE HAPPY WITH EVERYTHING.
ENJOY
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Reply by : Mathew Varghese   View Profile   Since : 20 Oct 2001 8:07:04 PM Close
Dear Sister Elsy,

Please understand that we (Brethern) have more evil practices than ornaments. Do you agree that dowry is evil and we are not suppose to take or give dowry? Do you agree with me that we still have class and caste differences? In my local assembly, when I was a teenager there were seven Harijan families attending and all of them went back to Hinduism bacause they found that (Brethern talks alot and never practice) their very survival is impossible in our society. Their children could not find suitable match from our community. Sister please read Matt. 13:24-30. The parable described a perfectly normal field. Most troublesome was the darnel, which in its early stages is most indistinguishable from the young blades of corn. Nothing could be done about it until the corn sprouted and began to fill out, by then it would be easy to distinguishable. We think so many courses of action to distroy the darnel. If you pull darnel when the corn was still green, but it had strong roots, and there are dangers of pulling up the corn at the same time. So it would be left till harvest. LET THEM GROW TOGETHER, Jesus said. Do not judge before time, do not try to weed out your rank and form a sect of HOLY MEN. It is not the duty of farmer's labourers (believers), but by a force of specially hired men (angels). In our community, we have many bad practices that nobody want to talk and if you talk you are a rebel.

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Reply by : Elsy Eapen   View Profile   Since : 21 Oct 2001 1:04:44 AM Close
Dear brother Mathew varghese in christ;
Thank you very much for your repley. You wasted your valuable time for me, thanks for the same.
We are living in this Brethren community. I love this community same as I love my Husband ,and children.So my heart is burning when my community is moving in a wrong direction.You are correct that there are lot of evil things in our community.As a women I cannot fight for each of them.But still I consider it is my responsibility to say something about ornaments because now in these pages we are talking about that particular subject.And women are the main users of ornaments. when we will open other subjects we will talk about that also. I know our community is effected with several diseases ,If you say dont treat for any disease it is not correct . We can treat one by one ,
Nobody is 100 percent perfect in the world before God . It dosnot mean we can do anything what we like.
All, including me and you have some responsibility before God. If any human think me as a rebel for that I dont care (jer:1:17-18)
As about Mathew 13 the parable of wheat and tares I cannot agree with you .I wish to quote some lines from william mac donalds believers Bible commentry.
v 37--" in His interpritationb of the wheat and tares parable , Jesus identified Himself as the sower he sowed directly during his earthly ministry and has been sowing through his servents in the succeeding ages.
v 38-- the field is the world , it is the world NOT THE CHURCH . The good seeds mean the sons of the kingdom ----
the tares are the sons of the wicked one . satan has a counterfeit for every devine reality.----
V 39 The enemy is satan, the enemy of God and all the people of God .The harvest is the end of age the end of the kingdom age in its interim form which will be when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory to rein as king The Lord is not refering to the end of church age . It leads only to confusion to introduce the church here.
V-40 The reapers are the angels.--
But brother I have lot of other verses which force me to speak about the wrong doings of my fellow sisters. Please read Ezekiel chapter 3 and 33. I am quoting ony one verse here . chapter 3 verse 20 "Again when a rightous ,man doth turn from his righteousness, and comit iniquity and I lay a stumbling block before him , he shall die because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin and his righteousness whhich he hath done shall not be remembered. But his blood will I require at THINE HAND.
Jer 20-9-----But his word was in my heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones and I was weary with forebearing and I could not stay"

Gal 6:1 " Bretheren if a man be overlaken in a fault , yet which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted".

1 Thess 5: 14 "Now we exhort You brethren warn them that are unruly ,comfort the feeble minded,support the weak be ptient towards all men.
2 Thess 3:15 " Yet count him( if a man not obay our word)not as an enemy but admonish him as a brother"

James 5:19-20 " Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him . Let him know that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shal save a soul---"
Please bro Mathew I am not Judging anybody. our God is the Judge. But according to the above mentioned verses I belive it is my duty also to advice others that is the only thing I am doing .I cannot close my eyes While my brothers and sisters are doing evil practices. I advice to change your attitude for the glory of God

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Reply by : Mathew Varghese   View Profile   Since : 21 Oct 2001 11:40:25 PM Close
Dear Sister Elsy,

Many thanks for your reply. My point is that some of our sisters have unusual desire for ornament and they are hiding their feeling. I assume that they forsake ornament not because they are worldly, but they fear the rath of our community. In my view this is sin.

Please tell me, can we drink tea or coffee? Both contain caffine and caffine is additive and stimulant. If your body is temple of God, will you be able to drink? NO. Then why we are allowed. We do not feel guilty because the community believes that drinking coffee is not a sin. (Excuse me, I am not confusing you. Just an example only) Tell me if wearing a ring is wrong, why Jesus said in his story (Luke 15:22), when the lost son came back, father put a ring on his hand. Read Psalms 45:13 the King's daugher is all glorious within. Her clothing is gold. It is natural (God created them in that way) that men wanted their women to be beautiful. God do not like hypocrites. God's love have to come from heart. If some one want to wear ornament and feel no guilty, wear them. I do not think there are two standards for malayalees and non-malayalees. Let me know why non Keralites sisters are not feeling guilty about that.

Regards

Mathew Varghese

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Reply by : Elsy Eapen   View Profile   Since : 22 Oct 2001 2:33:28 AM Close
Attn; Mathew
I think you forget all the previous discussion .Talking about tea /coffe is childish. We are using tea or coffe as a part of our food. It is not a strong drink and nobody is using it for addiction.
Ring was considered as the symbol of authority and power. (Ref: history of Daniel and read the book of Esther)
Here in the parable of the prodigal son he is getting best robe , ring and sandals. All these are symbols.For ring it shows the authority gains by salvation.
PS 45 speaks about the Lord and the bride (church)in all her beauty in Christs kingdom. All the saved MEN AND WOMEN includes in the word bride, Here the multi coloured robe, ophir gold everything shows the beauty of the church before God.

Now I have one question to you , If some among us want to give infant baptism to their child and feel no guilty do you think this is also acceptable for us .( I know about one incident)
When I am doing some wrong thing at the first time I will feel it guilty,but if I continue it I will not feel anything wrong. So dont judge anything according to the feeling .Go through the Bible , study the subject , find answer for each and every doubts then ask your community to lick the vomit.

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Reply by : Manorama   View Profile   Since : 22 Oct 2001 2:56:10 AM Close
FROM MALAYALA MANORAMA 19TH FRIDAY 2001
(kaithiri page 8 )
Kaumudi went to a prayer meeting to see Gandhiji at calicut. Kelappaji took her near to Gandhiji. Gandhiji asked her " will you use ornaments anymore" . "No" She answered, "will it not be a problem at the time of marriage"Gandhiji asked Kaumudi. "I will marry only a man who is not interested in ornaments" she answered to Gandhiji

KAUMUDI IS STILL UNMARRIED

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Reply by : Mathew Varghese   View Profile   Since : 23 Oct 2001 8:19:03 PM Close
Sr. Elsy,

Be realistic. Are we living truly as Bible says? What is the meaning of "the just shall live by his faith" (Hab 2:4. Are we living on faith? Jesus had no bank account. He lived for the day fully trusting his father. What is happening in our community now? We have millionaires (even Billionaires), hoarding money in various places, gold in safe lockers etc. If God can keep you safe and he knows your future do you have to struggle for making money. Wearing ornament is a silly matter if you consider our real pathetic condition.

We have modified so many times, the code of conduct set by our forefathers. For example, the dress code. Many of our ladies wearing western dresses or cutting hair.

Please understand that even though we are in the boat (salvation), the boat is floating on the water(world). Our world is getting highly competitive. If our ladies are not willing to change ((the way they look, talk or walk (I mean in the good sense)) they are not going to get a job. It is time to evaluate ourselves and not always finding examples and excuses from our forefathers. Read James 5:17 "Elias was a man subject to passion as we are". Each one of us have a wonderful personality. It is not our forefathers, we are the one to decide how to live in this world.

Sister, I am not running away from the subject; my point is that the matter of ornament is last and least important matter of subject compared to other issues.

Note: I am scared that I am taking too much of our valuable web space. I believe brainstroming is the best way to understand each others ideas. Hope other sisters forgive me.

Mathew Varghese
email: babu_mathew@hotmail.com

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Reply by : Elsy Eapen   View Profile   Since : 23 Oct 2001 11:49:51 PM Close
Attn- Mr Mathew;

Realistic= Based on facts rather than ideals
Ideal = perfect,principle,

If Ican throw away my Bible then I can be a realistic
In Jer: 44 some Women with their supporting husbands gave almost the same answer to jermeiah
V 15to 19 Then all men which knew that their wives had burned incence unto other gods , and all the women that stood by, a great multitude , even all the people that dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros , answered Jermiah, saying.

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee.
But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our mouth , to burn incense unto the queen of heaven and to pour out drink offering unto her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven , and to pour out drind offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven , and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men
I think at present this is the best answer to you from Bible.
Your question--Are we living truly as bible says ?
Ans - NO
Q- What is your teaching now? If we are not livig as bible says .We want to live according to Bible as much as we can, or because It is not possible to live according to Bible so we want to ignore the Bible?
What is your intention in asking the qwuestion " the just shall live by faith" "Are we living by faith?"
Do you think there is no righous in the world? Nobody is living by faith?
Do you think living by faith means live without working or live without proper dressing ? What you think about Abraham,David , Joseph, Daniel Job Etc; Cannot you count them as rightous people because they were wealthy? In your last letter also you asked a same question about drinking tea/ coffe.
You can be a millionare or billionare, You are owning 100 acre land or keeping 100 kg of gold in lockers are same .
You want to spend it for Gods work or give it to poor, it is upto you.If you want more reward in heaven you do according to that . But ornament is something else it is purely related to idol worship.This is the main reason we are opposing ornaments.
Please dont advice me to follow the wrong doings of others.
Do you think I am not living in this world , I am not doing a job,What code of our forefathers we changed ,They never told us wear lunki only,or anything like that.
If you think You are in the boat as you told , dont jump into the water by yourself ,or dont allow the water to enter into your boat. But the important thing is dont throw others from the boat to the water.
I am sorry to say that you are giving more importance to the circumstance than Bible and this is wrong.
God may bless you.

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Reply by : Anon   View Profile   Since : 24 Oct 2001 7:52:52 AM Close
It is important to distinguish sin from what is permissible. Even though I have attempted to make this distinction clear above, I will reiterate my thoughts here.

1. Sin is what is forbidden by God.
2. If God gives instruction on something, whether ornaments in Exodus, or eating meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians, then that something is not sin nor is it sinful because God does not tempt to sin (James 1).

The question that we must address: Is it profitable? This is the question that Paul asks in 1 Corinthians.

I would submit to you, brothers and sisters, that profitable should be defined in a mathematical sense of "non-negative". What I mean by that is that we should ask ourselves: "Will this behaviour cause harm?" If the answer to that question is "Yes", then we should refrain from that behaviour. If the answer is "No" or if the answer is neither "Yes" nor "No", we are able to proceed (see 1 Corinthians 10) with clear consciences.

In the case of ornaments: Harm can be defined in 2 ways: Harm to our testimony or offence/stumbling block to other believers. In India both of these things could happen when one wears ornaments as a believer. In North America, neither will happen (except if you go to a Malayalee church). So there is no, and should be no restrictions for wearing ornaments in that context (except when going to a Malayalee church).

Something's origin (or even its current perverted use) has nothing to do with its permissibility in our lives UNLESS it violates one of the rules I listed above. If I were to wear a necklace in North America, no one is going to think that it's connected to idol worship or has its origin in idol worship. However, if I was to wear a necklace in India, there is a very real risk of people connecting me with idol worship because I'm wearing a necklace. So therefore don't wear a necklace in India.

Also a particular thing’s current perverted use does not make that thing sinful for us. Consider television and the Internet. It’s being perverted today to be a tool for promoting sinful lifestyles, violence and a host of other sin. Does that mean we can’t watch it? No! (We should be careful what we watch!) Does this mean we can’t use it for evangelism or discussing spiritual things? No! Why? Because current behaviour doesn’t make something sinful.

Our lives should reflect the Lord whom we serve. Our lives should be free from any thing that can bring dishonour to our Lord. We should be free from all hypocrisy as well.

Ornaments are not sinful. But in India they may bring dishonour to me and my faith, so I should refrain. In North America no one will make such a connection, so it doesn't matter.

It is a very simple concept—that is considering your context—yet we're continuing to beat this thing to death. Let me challenge you brothers and sisters with this verse.

Titus 3:8-9
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

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Reply by : Mathew Varghese   View Profile   Since : 24 Oct 2001 7:46:21 PM Close
Sr. Elsy,

Before concluding my opinion, I would like to tell you that our ongoing discussion never establish who is right and who is wrong:

1. You completely forgot the Church history where 1st Century believers got well along with unbelievers. In Paul's time they came from a background of witch craft and idol worship. Believers observed days and festivals.Gal 4:10 We never read that they cut off relation with their family members because of their belief.

2. Church was under Roman Catholic rule until 16th C. Think of those believers.
3. 16th C. to 18C later part believers were under nominal reformist group.
4. When Plymouth Brethren orginated, they never insisted on ornaments.
5. Only Kerala Brethren (say approx. 100,000) were adament on this issue. Remember that is less than 5% of the believers around the world. (We have staunch Brethren belivers in East Europe, Australia, Argentina, Russia etc. They are willing to give everything for Christ).

If you want to be very orthodox in your belief why cannot you live like Manonites or Quakers in America?

Answering to your question on child baptism, I do not believe in child baptism. If child can understand the meaning of what he is doing and priest can do immersed baptism, let them do it. No godfather can take responsibility for child's sin. So if the parents do not feel guilty, they did not understand the Bible properly.

Please understand I have no difference of opinion with you on doctrine other than the issue of ornament. I believe you are a staunch believer. Keep it up.

Sister, I wish to conclude my writing on this issue. I have opened a page on Ritual or Rivival in General forum. Many thanks for making alive our discussion by contributing your opinion. I will join you when you open another interesting subject.

Note: Please remember me in your prayer. May God bless you and your family.

Regards,
MATHEW VARGHESE

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Reply by : Elsy Eapen   View Profile   Since : 26 Oct 2001 10:52:41 AM Close
Before closing this subject I request any of the sister to go through all the letters and give a summery to the readers.
I wish to ask one question to the realistic teacher!
The day is coming when people want to receive the mark (666 symbol) on their right hand or on forehead, If the people at that time is not accepting the mark, they cannot buy or sell, what advice you are going to give to those people. ( ref Mathew varghese " they are not going to get a job" if they are not doing things like others)
I wish to draw the attention of Anon also " Sin is what is forbidden by God"
Please read 1 samuel 12 :23 Even if we are not praying to god for others we are sinning to God.
Once James in his reply reminded you to check James 1;14
But without seeing that you are again and again talking about James 1:13 only.
One cannot lead a holy life by following the circumstances whether he is in India ,in America or in Africa.
Anon ask me"If Youwant to be very orthodox in your belief why cannot you like menonites or quakers in America"?
Please dont ask this question to anybody anymore. did you thought what your question means.
(1) You dont like orthodox people in your church
(2) You yourself know that you are not orthodox and like no changes.
(3) You know that the menonites and quakers are more orthodox than your community.
(4) You are talking with some authority.
(5) You want to expel who is not supporting your ideas.

I am sure the doctrins of brethrens are much better than anybody else this is the only reason why I am still in this congrigation.
I never asked you whether you belive in child baptism or not. I only mean you cannot justify anything by saying "I believe it like that"
I wish to hear from any of the sister the child we begat through these pages is male or female.
Thanks everybody in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...

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Reply by : believer   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2001 3:42:29 PM Close
Attn :Melinta Martin
Hope u r aware that TOBACCO IS INJURIOUS TO HEALTH
then pls. refer 1 cor 3:16,17
These would make u clear on the subject if u have an acceptance heart there is no shyness to share the truth but there should be willingness to accept the truth
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Reply by : Anon   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2001 6:48:54 PM Close
Believer, you are correct in saying that smoking would be wrong, and sinful since it damages the temple of the Holy Spirit. Melinta Martin is asking if smoking is grounds for excommunication.

Matthew 18 and 1 Cor 7 give clear instruction on excommunication. Sis. Martin, if the elders of your assembly followed the procedures of these passages, then your husbands excommunication is "legal".

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Reply by : Melinta Martin   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2001 10:40:47 PM Close
Thank you both anon and believer(both want to hide their real name/ face from other believers.)
Attn: Anon Please refer your repley dtd; 10-24-2001.
Point no: 1 "Sin is what is forbidden by God"
Please remember smoking or tobacco is not forbidden by God
Point no: 2 "God does not tempt to sin"
so smoking also cannot be sin.
Mathew 18 is not saying anything about the excommunication of a smoker.This only talks about the problem between two believers.And 1 cori : 7 talks about the family life,not a single word about the excommunication of anybody.
Attn Believer-
Once again I wish to remind you this is not the answer for my question,but after reading these pages I clearly understood using ornament is not the will of God .But in the smoking subject I cannot accept your justification.If anybody smokes regularly it is injurious to the health But my hus smokes in rare only.But I think ornament is more dangerous than smoking it is a threat to life itself.In your view 1cori: 3:16-17 is the scripture aginst smoking, is it not aginst ornaments also,(according to the writers in these pages, ornaments are symbol for idol and sex worshipping)
As I left the ornaments including the cross I dont want to continue the subject.
Thank you.
My conclution----
Sisters are more biblical than brothers in brethren Assemblies.
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Reply by : M A Jose   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2001 10:21:14 PM Close
Gold Wearing Talk.
Mrs Merlin Martin,
I've noticed ur questions regarding my note on wearing the ornaments and your complaint for my silence.
I'm not in position to make regular communications through computer.That is why I've given my postal address for corespondence.
Your questions are not related to the meaning expressed in my note.Your lighter misunderstood the meaning or twisted it your taste.Anyway I'm willing to give answer to your questions on the basis of the scripture provided you write to my postal address.
M.A.Jose,
Maliyakal House,
Swathanthra Nagar,
Anchery P.O,
Trichur-680006
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Reply by : Melinta Martin   View Profile   Since : 5 Nov 2001 8:57:17 PM Close
Mr Jos :-
Sorry
This is a public debate,
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Reply by : anonymous   View Profile   Since : 7 Nov 2001 12:26:37 AM Close

I had to the privilege to go through every article in this forum regarding the question of ornaments, and I must say i am pretty impressed by all that I have read here.....The to and fro arguments, the ones in favor and the ones against all reach up to a pretty good read......but here i do not write about that cos i am not interested in arguments.......just a silent spectator.....The thing that caught my obivious attention was the reply(s) of a certain person who has tended to write and I should say have the audacity to write here when the said person has a certain divorce problem which has caused the said person's family to disintegrate.........Tell me dear brothers and sisters who write in this column, do u all keep such sins closeted and yet preach.........isnt that hypocrisy or is that the new BRETHREN MOVEMENT..............
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Reply by : Dr. Johnson C. Philip   View Profile   Since : 22 Nov 2001 7:01:39 PM Close
Hello One And All !!!

It is amazing how any discussion on ornaments can create more light than heat among us !! And though we Brethren swear by the Book, this is one area where we abandon it with the speed of light and substitute personal opinion and prejudices. And as i read each of the comments (over two days), i was amazed at the abundance of personal opinion and also some people trying to bring in unrelated ideas and also trying to grind their own axe.

Why not examine the issue from a more biblical perspective. Say begin with the ways in which ornaments were used in the bible. And then whether there is any distinction is to be drawn between the ring placed on Jospeh or the prodigal son, and the rings used as pagan symbol.

Also, why not consider the verses dealing with ornaments in entirety.

Soli Deo Gloria

Dr. Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : sandy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2002 5:19:28 PM Close
Well This topic has come out of the 'filthy surplus' of the brethren which they themselves call blessings. I am sure it wouldn't have gain prominence and its preeminence in some seven SCORES back

a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, `How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings.

You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me.

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

REALLY PATHETIC!!!

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Reply by : Watchman   View Profile   Since : 4 Jan 2002 4:34:45 PM Close
Hallo Sandy -
You are trying to say something , What is it.Are you trying to say something about ornaments .If not please open another page.
With cristian love.
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Reply by : AJ   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2002 7:33:17 PM Close
Hey everybody, there seems to be so much anger and bad feelings in your words...Wonder if t's necessary to debate at such heated levels about if we should wear an ornament or no, the point here is let a sister decide for herself, and remember she is answerable to God herself. She has the word of God to guide her and convict her. She also has to consider her testimony. However what we should not do is judge another sister who is wearing one. It is interesting to note that its mostly in different parts of South India that the Bretheren bel'vers have given up their jewellery. In many parts of North India and the world we have very very good sound Christian sisters who do wear ornaments. In Tamil Nadu for example, many poor uneducated sisters come for worship meetings with flowers on their head. These sisters do not have many doctrinal knowledge however they love the Lord a lot, they have the courage to give up their idols and serve the Living God. In the light of the above do I have to right to assume that a sister who is wearing an ornament or flowers on her head is not right with God ? and condemn her as one who is living away from God..
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Reply by : jj   View Profile   Since : 9 Mar 2002 11:30:22 PM Close
I found an interesting comment of abrother who became a brethren that he has kept all his gold in the locker. Sadly this is what happens with mosy believers in the brethren assembly . Love of money is not love of gold but anything materialistic by nature. Here we have abrother whose love for the gold is there but the brethren community will not accept him with the gold. So he keeps it in the bank. ( bank manager).
I am not being judgemental. This is a reality. This brother has innocently let the cat out of the bag.
With apologies
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Reply by : jimmi   View Profile   Since : 4 Sep 2002 7:31:17 AM Close
Dear Sisters

Let me start by saying that i am young beliver compared to all the sisters and brothers involved in this discussion as it seems to be and after going through all the viewpoints i can't help but share my views regarding this issue.I too belong to the third generation of brethern belivers of my family who avoid the use jewellery even now and i too prefer not to use it on sheer personal preference and conviction but still i feel this should be left to individual preference of the believer,as there is no clear instruction we find in the scripture so as to suggest that a person must forsake jewellery when he accepts lord jesus christ as his personal saviour,neither do we find either Lord Jesus Christ or the disciples for that matter telling anybody to remove their jewellery after believing in the lord Jesus.And we all know that people in those times were using jewellery possibly more than it is used today.

Regarding the verse we find in 1 Timothy 2:9-10 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.I would like to understand this verse by asking myself why Paul is asking only womans to not adorn themself with gold,costly array etc weren't there men who were using jewellery, or gold rings or gold necklace etc,or costly raiment etc.Why is he not telling them to do so.What i would understand from here is that it is the women who are likely to get into excessive use of jewellery,but in mens case they prefer to go in for a ring or a gold necklace hardly anything more than that.So what i would infer from here is that,what Paul is refering to here is not simple or general use of a ring or a necklace or but the excessive use of it.Notice the word costly array and not simply array does it mean that we stop arraying ourselves.So it is not the gold or pearl alone he is talking of but bewaring us to not fall in love with all the attractive things of this of this world.This does not necessary mean jewellery could be anything,raiments,decorative material,money,mansions etc etc.Now we should be able to distinguish well between falling in for a particular thing and using it for a general purpose.The other thing i would like to say that so much is said and preached and discussed about a thing which is debatably interpreted as told not to be used in 1 Timothy 2:9-10 but what about the other things which is told to adorn oneself with,why nobody wants to talk much about that,or nobody emphasizes on adorning oneself with sobriety,shamefacedness,godliness i guess if this had been adorned by all of us this confusion relating to this kind of matters would not have arisen and we would have concentrated to please God by leading seperated life by our practical behaviour and be an example for others by showing inner qualities such aslove of God to others,affection,politeness,humbleness etc and not by our outward appearence.So i would like to request that we the malayalee brethern though agreed that so much sacrifices have been made by our forefathers while they left their denominations to follow the lord and one of which was that they had removed their jewelleries to declare their seperation,which should be admired and regarded high but let us not make this a universal application for all the brethern and cause hinderence in work of the lord where as per my experience many non-malayalees hesitate to join the fellowship despite of getting saved due to hard imposition of this doctrine in certain places.

I would also like to request my brethern if anyone could please provide the scope or the advantages a brother or sister not using jewellery has on his counterpart who uses it with regard to his spiritual growth and edificaton.


humbly yours in him

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Reply by : tinu   View Profile   Since : 23 Oct 2002 4:51:59 AM Close
Before 100 yrs..
Nalla vastram nalla seyyakal-
Sukha saadhanagal-
Ellivayil aasa dasanu..

Now..
Nalla vasthram nalla sayyakal
Sukha sadanagal
Ennivayil aasa dasanu(dasickum)

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Reply by : me   View Profile   Since : 10 Dec 2002 4:08:39 AM Close
I have been reading this debate that has been going on. It has been written that "our forefathers" never wore ornaments. Yes, our "foremothers" as a sign of turning away from the traditional and orthodox churches, removed their jewellery as a sign of separation from the world. They wore white "chatta and mundu" and spent their time in prayer and exercising hospitality to the needy ones.

But our "forefathers" kept their identity. The ones who migrated to the U.S., Gulf and other cities in Kerala always wore the latest fashion in pants and shirts and elegant suits. They could fit into any strata of society and blended in with the crowd.

What was the mark of their "separation" ?? Of course if his "Brethren wife" shorn of any adornment accompanied him -then he would qualify as being "separated".

To the brothers who get so legalistic and insist on women refraining from wearing ornaments because it is gold, I would ask - how is it that you do not mind wearing a gold wristwatch and gold spectacle frames. Why is it that you are wearing trousers and suits ? Why are you not wearing Shirt, Mundu and Nariyadu ? That is what your
"forefathers" wore - isn't it ?

So does this mean that only the Malayalee Sisters and their male counterparts will get special crowns in heaven because they have refrained from wearing ornaments. How about all the wonderful believing sisters in other parts of India and all over the world - are they unspiritual ?

It is okay for us to gossip about others. It is okay for us to approve the girl whose father will dole out the highest dowry. It is okay to wear "costly apparel" as long as the price tag is not there.

I do not wear jewellery because I have never worn it and I do not have any interest in wearing it either. When you are a working person you definitely stand out in the way you look. Even married people don't wear a wedding ring or have any sign of marriage. In today's world it is not that easy. It was easy for my "Valiammachy" who left her Jacobite family connections because she stayed in her own little kingdom in Kerala and never left it !!!

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Reply by : shaji   View Profile   Since : 10 Dec 2002 11:02:38 PM Close
Bravo!

There is a good article, (which I say every one who fight against ornaments must read) in

www.brehtrenassembly.com/3CultureGap.htm

Those who fight for traditional values without using simple logic, are "tumpling stones in the paths of new believers"

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Reply by : Saju Thomas   View Profile   Since : 26 Mar 2003 1:53:17 AM Close
Either Old testament or New Testament is not encouraging Ornaments. It rather discourages it. Prodigal Son's example should not be interpreted literally, In that case, Rev 3:18 Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;" also has to be interpreted literally. We all have to buy Gold to become rich. No,, the golden ring in prodigal son parable is not encouraging believers to wear ornaments.

Joseph was given the garland by Pharoah as a symbol for Egyptian ruler. Do not relate it with our subject.

When Adam and Eve were created, God made garments for them, not garlands. Genesis 2:12 says "And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone." None of these was used to defile their body. Later own when man started to worship idols and evil angels, the ornaments also came to picture. Initially it was skulls and bones, Then modified with nuts and shells and stones. Now also ornaments are strongly prevailing in idol related cultures only.

Sisters, you are looking good without ornaments. Please do not encourage this social evil.

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Reply by : Jean Ann Philip   View Profile   Since : 9 Apr 2003 5:41:38 AM Close
WEARING ORNAMENTS
Is it necessary?
Wearing Ornaments has become a perplexing subject to most of the believers. Nevertheless, it is a very silly problem, when we consider the great Salvation the Lord has given on the cross of Calvary, by giving up His own precious life. When we think of ourselves some thing great, only then we face such problems. If we have really experienced the great salvation with all its depth and value, there will not be such questions. All these occur because of the shallowness in spiritual life.

Nothing of God's creation is an abomination to us. God creates gold, silver, and all kinds of metals. If we use it for its own purpose, it is not at all an abomination. Even if we wear very simple crystal or steel ornaments for our pomp and pride, it may be a sin. We do not hate any metals. But every kind of metal has its own use. It is not for hanging on our body for display. Such practice will only lead us into trouble and harm. “I will hand it all over as plunder to foreigners and as loot to the wicked of the earth” Ezekiel 7:21. It is also the same with our apparels. We should not use our apparels for a display before others, but dress modestly. “I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God” I Timothy 2:9,10.

I. Arguments from Creation

1. God formed Adam and Eve out of the dust, and clothed them with His glory. However, when they had sinned against God, they lost their heavenly glory and became naked. Genesis 3:7, Romans 3:23. They tried to cover their nakedness with the Leaves of the Fig Tree, but it ended in vain. The Lord made skin coats for them. But He did not adorn them with any kind of ornaments. There were plenty of jewels and pearls near the bank of the river Pishon. Genesis 2: 11,12. But God did not use any such things to adorn them. This shows that God never expected man to wear ornaments.
2. GodÂ’s works are perfect and beautiful. Ecclesiastes. 3:11. He does not need any bodies help or support to complete His work. He never does a mistake, which has to be rectified. When people pierce their ears and noses to hang ornaments, they are truly challenging the perfect ness of GodÂ’s handiwork. It is a rebellion against God.
3. Lucifer was the handiwork of God. He was created with all kinds of pearls and jewels with splendor and glory. But because of his beauty and glory, he exalted himself than God, and that caused him to fall. This destined him to eternal damnation. Isaiah 14: 11f , Ezekiel 28:11f. But God created man out of the dust of the earth, so that he may be humble before God. When we realize that we are just dust and worm, then the Lord will lift us up to the heavenly abode and make us to reside in the golden streets of New Jerusalem. Therefore, we have two options before us. Either we can choose the path of Lucifer or the will of the heavenly Father. What would you like to choose?


II. Arguments from History

1. Through the ages, man invented various ways and means to cover up their nakedness, after their fall. They tried leaves and barks of trees and bushes as ornaments hanged from neck to foot, to cover their nakedness, irrespective of their sex. Later on, there occurred various changes and alteration according to the modern inventions and discoveries. After the invention of metals, they began to use metals in the place of leaves and barks. Later they found some mysterious power in certain metals, which they used for protection from evil powers. Among such metals are gold, silver, and certain pearls. Thus, the use of metal ornaments came to existence. (Malayalam Encyclopedia. Refer ornaments)
2. Later, ornaments were used to display their pomp and pride. Ezekiel. 7:20. But God wants man to be humble before God. He grants grace to the humble. James 4:6. Thus, ornaments became a cause to sin. Ezekiel 7:19. If it is a stumbling to a believer, then it must be abhorred.
3. Wearing of ornaments has a pagan origin. People believed that all jewels and gems have some mystical power, which can protect them from evil powers. A young man who is fallen in love with a girl will put on her an ornament or ring, which will bring her spirit in to his control. 1 For the fulfillment of desires, people wore some kind of bang lets and rings.
4. Wearing ornaments has some Astrological effects. Astrologers believe that certain gems have some mystical influences on certain planets, which can bring good and evil on human beings.
The following chart depicts each planet and the jewels.
The Sun: a diamond or sapphire set in a ring of gold.
The Moon: a crystal in silver ring.
Mercury: a ‘magnet’ set in quicksilver.
Mars: an emerald in an iron ring.
Jupiter: a cornelian set in tin.
Venus: an amethyst in copper ring.
Saturn: a turquoise set in lead.
Therefore, wearing ornaments associates men with some superstitious beliefs and its influences. The major encyclopedias I have consulted have lengthy articles describing the superstitious use of finger rings and ornaments as charms, amulets, talismans, and as aids to the worship of various pagan gods. Wearing ornaments, thus become a kind of idol worship.
5. When we study the history of the Church, the early period, we see any apparent use of ornaments. Apostle Peter and John said to the Lame man, at the temple gate, that they did not have any silver or gold. Acts 3:6. They led a life of simplicity. Later, when the Roman Emperor Constantine became a Christian, Christianity became Royal. Believers became rich. Priests got all kinds of royal privileges. Churches were turned into big Cathedrals. People transferred their religion without any transformation of heart. Thus, all kinds of alien practices crept into the church. People lived with all their pomp and proud. They left the life of simplicity of the early church.
6. One of the prominent Canons of the Orthodox Church, known as Hudaya canon, states that when one is baptized, ornaments should be removed. In fact, such an act clearly implies, wearing of ornaments was strictly prohibited in the early churches. 4

III. Arguments from the Old Testament

1. We find in the Old Testament that ornaments were a stumble to worship God. When God commanded Jacob and his family to go to Bethel and worship God, they removed all the earrings and idols and buried it under an oak tree. Genesis 35:1-7. If it was a stumbling to Jacob to worship God, how much more to the New Testament believers!!
2. Israelites on their exodus, the women removed their earrings and made a golden calf of idol to be worshiped. It was become a great sin against God. Their ornaments became idols to them. Exodus Chapter 32. What is an idol to the New Testament believers? “A greedy man is an idolater.” Ephesians 5:5 “Greed is idolatry.” Colossians 3:5. If we love anything more strongly than Jesus Christ, it is an idol to the New Testament believer. Matthew 10:37. If, ornaments become an obstacle to love Jesus, for them ornaments are their idols. Idolatry is a great sin that God hates so much. If it is so, a New Testament believer should avoid ornaments.
3. For the people of Israelites, Ornaments was an obstacle for God’s presence. “When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments.” For the Lord had commanded Moses: “Tell the Israelites, ‘you are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.” So, the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb. Exodus 33:4-6. This commandment was given not at this very moment. But, it was a commandment already given to Moses. If the people of Israel needed the presence of God, they had to remove the ornaments. According to the commandment of the Lord, they stripped off all their ornaments. Then, why cannot we, the New Testament believers follow that clear-cut commandment?
4. Bible says that, if our prayers are to be answered, we have to remove the ornaments. “Cast your nuggets to the dust, your gold of Ophir to the rocks in the ravines. Then the Almighty will be your gold, the choicest silver for you. Surely then you will find delight in the Almighty and will lift up your face to God. You will pray to him and He will hear you, and you will fulfill your vows. Job 22:24-27. When Jesus is our gold, do we need any other gold? When we delight in Jesus, do we delight in gold? When we give importance to Jesus, only then He will answer our prayer.
5. Prophets of Israel strictly condemned the pomp and pride of Israel. Isaiah 3:18-26; Ezekiel 7:19-21. Their Jewry became their idol and caused them to do sin. If it was a cause of sin for Israel, how much more we have to avoid such kinds obstacles from our life?

IV. Arguments from New Testament
1. New Testament vindicates the vanity of using ornaments. Instead, it recommends using the ornaments of good works, gentle and quiet spirit, which are so great worth in GodÂ’s sight. I Timothy 2:10, I Peter 3:3; 1:18,19. We do not see any apparent use of ornaments in the early apostolic church. Rather, it is evident that they were very poor. Even Apostle Peter confessed that they were without silver and gold. Acts 3:6. Though, we are blessed materially, it is healthier to continue the simplicity of the early Church.
2. Apostle Paul gives a clear-cut commandment to avoid ornaments and expensive clothing. “I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God” 1 Timothy 2:9,10.
3. Apostle Peter also gives a crystal-clear commandment to abhor all kinds of external decorations and fashions, instead internal beauty is strongly recommended. “Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight” 1 Peter 3:3,4.
4. The Great Whore of the Book of Revelation is dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones, and pearls. We are sure that She is the counterfeit Church. Revelation 17:4. However, the original Church, the BRIDE OF CHRIST is dressed in Fine Linen, bright and clean. Revelation 19:7,8. Therefore, it is reasonable for a true believer to avoid all types of valuable clothes and ornaments, which display our pride and pomp.
5. According to the New Testament, if we love anything more than Jesus Christ is idol worship. Mathew 10:37. “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me…” “Greed, which is idolatry”. Colossians 3:5. If so, if we love ornaments and obstinate to avoid it is idol worship. Nothing should be an obstacle to love Jesus Christ, for a New Testament believer.

V. Argument from Practical life.

We live in a crooked and wicked World. Life is not safe or secure. We see everyday looting and kidnapping. The main reasons for all these kind of violence are wealth and gold. A Malayalam Poet wrote like this: Kanakam moolam kamini moolam kalaham palavitham ulahil sulabham. Gold and Girl are the main causes for all kinds of wickedness. Therefore, for a safe and secured life it is wise to avoid all kinds of ornaments. Wearing ornaments will attract anti-social elements to us, which will be led to looting and murdering. Therefore, from the practical point of view, wearing ornaments should be avoided.

VI. Argument from Economics

According to Economics, utility and essentiality is the base for any commodity. Food is essential. Clothing is essential. A cottage is essential, a watch is useful, and a sandal is useful. Wearing ornament is not essential or useful. Instead, it brings harm and trouble to us. If we display ornaments on our body will not bring any benefit, instead if we invest it in a bank will bring interest. More over constant use of ornaments will decrease its value. Therefore, economically, wearing ornament is unnecessary for our day-to-day use.

VII. Some doubts and its Answers

1. Why God commanded Israelites to borrow jewelry from the people of Egypt, on their exodus? It is a good question. For the last four hundred years, people of Israel were in Egypt. Pharaoh tortured them, by making them hard labor. But they had never been paid. God never lets His people go unpaid. Though God commanded the people of Israel to borrow ornaments, the incident shows that the people of Egypt gave them ornaments by their own will. Exodus 12:35,36. I believe, at this very moment, God commanded Moses to tell the people of Israel, that they should not wear ornaments if God wanted to go with them. Exodus 33: 5. Despite of the commandment of the Lord, they began to wear ornaments, which cause them to do a great sin before God. Exodus chapter 32. God had an ultimate purpose for this jewelry; it was to build the Tabernacle.
2. Some question that Eliazer the steward of Abraham had given Rebecca golden jewelry, the bride of Isaac, and then why cannot we use ornaments to the brides. This is a good question. One thing we should know before we ask this question. The Old Testament Scripture is just a shadow of things to come. Hebrew 10:1, Romans 15:4. Though those events are historical facts, yet, we teach that Abraham, Isaac, Eliazer, and Rebecca are types for the New Testament. Abraham is a type of God the Father, Isaac as Jesus Christ, Eliazer as the Holy Spirit, and Rebecca the Church. Then, the ornaments given to Rebecca by Eliazer are the type of Holy SpiritÂ’s gifts to the church. Therefore, we cannot take it as literal ornaments in the New Testament period.
3. Another question comes from the story of the prodigal son. When the prodigal returned to his father, he was given a ring to his finger, then why we cannot use a ring. This is a parable told by our Lord Jesus Christ to reflect a spiritual fact. The Father is the Heavenly Father and the prodigal son is the sinner. When the prodigal son returned home he regained his the son-ship. The ring is the guarantee of his son-ship. The same way, when man is alienated from God, he lost his son-ship. When he returns to the Lord regains it. Our guarantee is not a literal golden ring, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:16,17.
4. There is another argument from James Chapter Two verse two to four. “Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here is good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “sit on the floor by my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? They argue that in the early church, believers attended the worship service, wearing ornaments and valuable clothes, then why cannot we use ornaments. When we study this portion, we understand that it is speaking about discrimination in the church meeting. Here Apostle James is not speaking about a believer, but showing an example. These two persons are not believers, but two examples brought from outside. When people come from out side, we should not show any partiality or discrimination irrespective of poor or rich. Therefore, this topic does not teach to wear ornaments.

5. Some argue that the abhorrence of jewelry is only practiced among the Malayalee Pentecostals. In all the other places, even Pentecostals use ornaments. Are the Malayalee-Pentecostals the only perfect believers? No, this is wrong information. I heard from an American missionary that there are certain groups in the United States, who strictly abhors ornaments and sit on floor for their worship services. We never go after the majority but stick on the Scripture. Refer the book of Samuele Bacchiocchi, Christian dress and Adornment, United States.

6. Some people ask, “Why can’t we use at least a wedding ring?” All over the world, People use ring as symbol of marriage covenant. Then why we, Pentecostal do not use it. This is a good question. There are various culture and practices around the World. However, we need not to follow all those things. We should not follow the majority also. The Scripture is our final authority. Follow it carefully. Wearing a Ring is not the guarantee to a strong married life. Unless a couple is tied with the cord of love, their married life will be a failure. The following points will prove the futility of the marital ring.

VIII. Origin of Wedding ring

These points are quoted from the Book of Samule Becchocche, an American Writer, and a Pastor.
a. The origin of finger ring is shrouded in pagan mythology and idolatrous practices. To invest a pagan symbol with a sacred Christian meaning can easily lead to the secularization of the symbol itself.
b. The Romans introduced the use of a plain iron ring to “tie” the betrothal commitment of two lovers. However, that plain iron betrothal ring soon evolved into elaborate gold rings used to cover all the fingers.
c. There are three stages evolved in the Christian churches as happened in the Roman pagan world. In the first stage of the apostolic period, there was no apparent use of the marital ring. In the second stage of the third centuries, there was a restricted use of only one plain inexpensive conjugal ring. In the final stage from the fourth century onward, there was a proliferation of all kinds of ornamental rings and jewelry.
d. What happened in the early church has been repeated in modern denominations. In the first stage, no jewelry or wedding rings was allowed. In the second stage, a concession was made for wearing the wedding ring. In the final stage, the concession to wear the marital ring became a pretext for wearing all kinds of jewelry, including ornamental rings.
e. “Minnu” is the marital symbol of Kerala Christians. It has a pagan origin. The shape of minnu is like Cobra’s hood. It is borrowed from “Hindu thali”. (Yuhanon Marthoma Metrapolita). Therefore, it is not Biblical.
It is quite clear that the early Church believers never used wedding rings as a symbol of marriage, nor we see any reference in the apostolic writings. It is a practice crept into the church after the third century, when the church became regal under the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine.

CONCLUSION

What happened in the Christendom will be repeated in Pentecostalism also. In the initial stage of Pentecostal movement, no such wedding ring or ornaments were allowed in the church. Now a day, such practices are crept into the Church here and there. If we relax in this regard, it will drag away the Church from its original purity and separation. The Church worship will be turned to a time of fashion parade. Therefore, it is wise to stick on the initial practice of Pentecostalism.

The New Testament as well as the Old Testament strongly abhors the use of ornaments and expensive apparels to display oneÂ’s pomp and pride, which is a great sin.

I would like to conclude it with an illustration. Once a little child put her hands into a crystal flower vase, which had a very narrow neck. So, she could not take her hand out. Since the vase was beautiful and valuable , she could not break it also. Her parents and neighbors tried their level best to remove her hand out of the vase, but all the efforts ended in vain. There was an intelligent man, who was watching everything. He took a golden coin out of his pocket, and showed it to the child. Suddenly they heard a ‘cling’ sound in the vase and the child’s hand came out of it. In their surprise, they noticed a Ten Penny in the bottom of the vase. The child was catching hold of that ten penny for all this time. Therefore, she could not take her hand out. When she saw the golden coin, some thing better, and valuable than the ten penny, she dropped the penny and caught hold of the golden coin. The same way, when we recognize the heavenly glory as something great and valuable, we will not argue for this one caret of gold. The matter is that, one who truly realized the great redemption and its value may not cling on this ornaments or anything such. If Jesus could, gave up his own life for each one of us, why cannot we abhor all that belongs to the perishing world??

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Reply by :   View Profile   Since : 11 Apr 2003 11:52:28 PM Close
is this a discussion forum or a book exihibtion????????????????
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Reply by :   View Profile   Since : 13 Apr 2003 4:53:31 AM Close
Thanks Jean. Though it is bit long, your posting has very good points which I never noticed before.
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Reply by : Opinion   View Profile   Since : 24 Apr 2003 11:13:36 AM Close
Thanks Jean, Its a wonderful posting. I printed that to use as a complete reference about that subject.
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Reply by : Sincy Varghese   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2003 10:08:19 AM Close
I saw the same post in some other forum too. It was written by someone else, yet this post does not give any indication of being someone else's.

Also I see a number of postings which congratulates the sister for the wonderful posting.

One of the following could be the case

1. Sister Jean genuinely forgot to give due credit to the original author, or at least mention the website where this post originally appeared. I think the post appeared first in Good news discussion forum.
2. Sister Jean never thought that she would be congratulated for this post and hence did not see the importance of giving credit to the original author.
3. Sister Jean deliberately refrained from mentioning the name of the original source of the material.


For cases 1 and 2 above Sister Jean is not to be faulted, but she would do well to mention the details of the original source of the manuscript, thereby giving credit to the author of the script. Not doing so would be deemed as plagiarism and even in the secular would would amount to much harm. I do not think even the son has the right to publish his father's works and take credit for that.

For case 3 Sister Jean is at fault and plagiarism is akin to stealing.

I think this is an even bigger issue than wearing ornaments.

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Reply by : Opinion   View Profile   Since : 12 May 2003 3:09:12 PM Close
Sincy,
I did not congratulate the Jean, I thanked her for sharing this information. Any how she made this 'Wonderful' information available to me. Everybody gets information from different sources. That does not means that she can't share that knowledge to anybody else. Please use your time creatively. Don't worry and be selfish, share the information you have. Let others also be knowledgable.
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Reply by : Sincy Varghese   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2003 1:29:50 PM Close
You should know how to glean the meaning from a post. I do not know if you know about copyright laws.

Anyway I was trying to drive the point that when we use someone else's intellectual property, we ought to give the credit to the author.

There was no need for me to be selfish. About being creative, I'll try not to comment on that because I do not think it is worthwhile.

Anyway Judgmentalism rather than facts have become the order of the forum.

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Reply by : Opinion   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2003 2:31:12 PM Close
There are soo much of spiritual materials which are not protected with a copyright law. If you get any such useful materials, please feel free to share that. Gospel or spiritual thoughts can't be categorized as an intellectual property (like a computer program). Thoughts provoked by the God Holy Spirit should never be protected with a copyright law. I am sure that, the posting made by Jean was very useful to many(including you). I really appreciate her because she made that available to many. We see many in the brethren assemblies started wearing ornaments these days. People who wants to wear ornaments may not like that posting, because that posting brings their sin to the light of the word of God.
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Reply by : TG   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2003 6:29:16 AM Close

Since Brethren are so brillint in Word of God - they can use the God's word according to their pattern- they are able to prove that using ornament is wrong and in the same way using ornament is not wrong. If any body has his/her own opinion(which determined not to be changed - rather trying impose on others to believe) why to take help from God's word?? Please do not use Holy Word for your personal justifications. PLEASE LEAVE THE LORD. DO NOT CRUCIFY HIM AGAIN.

Brethren - how many times you will discuss this subject - will have no end.

Jesus Christ had never asked us to wear ornaments - Neither Apostiles tought us to do so. When there are lot of things which they asked us to do - why to ponder on things which had not been told us to do.

This will help only to fight - Please Please stop this useless subject

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Reply by : Jonathan   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2003 6:16:46 PM Close
We must discuss issues without fighting. There are certain doctrines that are harmful to the body of christ because they are based on traditions. There are others that aren't followed and should be. We should root them out. We must be civil when doing it.
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Reply by : Believer   View Profile   Since : 8 Oct 2003 9:06:12 AM Close
Here are certain good write ups on this issue without any bias. Most people write based only on what they think is right. Read any articles or bible with PRAYER and it is God open our wisdom and heart to understand His truth.

http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/stdy35-1.htm
http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/stdy35-2.htm
http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/stdy35-3.htm
http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/stdy35-4.htm
http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/stdy35-5.htm
http://members.cox.net/rev.claude/stdy35-6.htm

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 7 Dec 2003 4:37:14 PM Close
Dear Readers:
I just opened another topic titled as " Is wearing Jewelry Biblical". Actually I didn't know that this has been already discussed. If you are interested to know the views that are expressed, I invite you to look at that. I pray that it would be helpful.

Tom J

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Reply by : ba   View Profile   Since : 6 Jan 2005 1:03:29 PM Close
Scripture says, "Lay aside all filthyness"

That verse can be translated into three forms: Phyical dirtyness, spiritual filtyness, and emotional excess. Jewelry can fit under physical externation. Therefore, ormentaiton can be a sin.

Scripture Says, "Dont forsake the word of word for traditions of man"

If the majority does something that is violating the scripture, dont listen to their man-made creed. Since there is a new fashion of jewelry going on, it can be breaking the commandment mentioned above.

Thank You.

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Reply by : nelnob   View Profile   Since : 8 Jan 2005 12:12:09 PM Close
More than a century ago a small group of born again christians who followed the word of God exactly as in the scriptures says, getting seperated from the world leaving everything for the glory of God ,leaving thier homes ,thier parents for the sake of truth and the love between this born again believers were called as brethren in English and the world gave the name Verpetu viswasikal in Malayalam as now we are called verpadukkar, and we are the grandchildren of our forefathers who left everything , we are still called verpadukkar. The pentocostal movement in Kerala started after the Brethren assembly came into existence, we have differnce in opinion about thier teachings in some matters but as per my opinion and as per my experiences never a pentocostal beleiver will raise this question, but we brethren believers are trying to cope up with the world in all fields. Let us be aware that we are a group of seperated people who should have a seperation from the world in all aspects.


Let the name of the Lord Almighty be Glorified.

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Reply by : brownsugar   View Profile   Since : 6 Mar 2005 1:55:20 PM Close
I am an americanized boy that is born and raised in the united states. I attend an english assembly here, and I want to ask you a question? What about ornamentation? why are the women there wearing ornaments? for what reason? in the first place they shouldnt wear it because it is a sin. Is it some type of kerala style or something???? Why would they wo it in the first place if its a sin?
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Reply by : varghesep   View Profile   Since : 27 Mar 2005 10:02:44 PM Close
There are plenty of poor pastors in India are wearing less than Rs.25 slippers. What do you think if I say we all believers in the Brethren Assembly should go back to wearing Rs.25 slippers instead of shoes?
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Reply by : brownsugar   View Profile   Since : 31 Mar 2005 3:24:16 PM Close
I want to ask you a question. I hear alot of yelling and screaming about the concept of jewelery. I never knew that ornaments were a big deal in the KB assemblies.

Why do you wear jewlery if its a sin in the first place?

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Reply by : svarg   View Profile   Since : 3 Apr 2013 1:41:56 PM Close

Wearing ornaments is not a sin. In america and bombay, mangalore etc sisters wear ornaments. I have a gold chain and a diamond ring which I wear often.

 

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