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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Jerusalem

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# 02408 :  Jerusalem

Dear brethren in Christ,

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Post by : George P. Koshy  View Profile    since : 21 Nov 2012


Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 21 Nov 2012 8:37:45 PM Close

Unfortunately the family feud that began at father Abraham’s will never end so the situation in that area will not change; if Abraham could not fix it then how can others resolve their issues?

 

Bobby Chacko

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 22 Nov 2012 2:22:13 PM Close

Dear Bobby Chacko,

You are by your own admission is a SDA who makes Adam to be the Creator, Elohim.  You as a SDA believe that you learn Truth from the Devil.  You as a SDA also believe that the prophets of God (Daniel and Ezekiel are only two of them) are the prophets of Satan.  You wrote all these on this Forum.

Shalom Malekim!!!

 

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 5 Dec 2012 4:19:20 AM Close

 

BEFORE ZIONISM, MOST CHRISTIANS AND JEWS WERE PRO-PALESTINIAN

By Rev. Ted Pike
4 Dec 12

 

Few people realize that, as recently as 120 years ago, virtually every religious Jew was essentially anti-Zionist.  They agreed that, because of their sins, God allowed their expulsion into the world.  They also agreed it was God's will that they remain in exile and not return to Palestine until collective repentance had occurred. They agreed, as Jeremiah warned, that they should not listen to the rebellious voice of those who advised them, contrary to God's decree, to return to Jerusalem and retake the land.  (Jer. 29:8-9)  Instead, they should wait until the Messiah comes. He would reinvigorate their piety and lead them once again to their promised land.  (See "Jewish Religious Opposition of Zionism" at Rense.com)

Today, ultra-Orthodox Jews of Neturei Karta and Jews Against Zionism are among the last survivors of at least eight million eastern European (Ashkenazi) and a million Sephardic/Oriental Jews who believed this way.  Reform Jewry was among them.  Jews living in the 1880s would be astonished at any suggestion that dispersed Jewry had privileges to return and set up a kingdom in Palestine. They would point to dozens of prohibitions in the Old Testament law upholding Jehovah’s dictum that if they rebelled they could never come back as a nation except in obedience. (See List of Conditional Occupation Verses)

However, such Jews, including Neturei Karta today, do not believe their people were exiled because of rejection or even crucifixion of Jesus. Such ultra-Orthodox devotees of the Talmud and Kabala make public statements of reverence for Jesus as a “great teacher” and declare that Talmudic Judaism shares Christ's values. (This pleases anti-Zionists.)  But they agree with the Talmud that Jesus was a false prophet. The Talmud says that He (under the pseudonym “Balaam”) now resides in hell, writhing in boiling semen (Gittin 56b-57a). As such, they believe it was the greatest virtue for the Pharisees and the Jewish people to have persuaded the Romans to crucify Him.

Such anti-Zionist Jews believe the Jewish people are under judgment for not fully obeying a vastly greater authority than Jesus or even Moses and the prophets: the Pharisees. Only when Jews repent and return to study and veneration of the sacred writings of the Pharisees, the Talmud and Zohar, as God desires, and end defilement of the holy land by allowing Talmud-rejecting secular Jews to live there, will God’s blessing return to Jews.  When God allows Messiah to come, He will soften the hearts of Jews everywhere to seek the God of their Pharisaic forefathers. In fulfillment of a multitude of Old Testament prophesies, the Jewish people will be gathered and led back to Palestine to occupy the land and rule over the nations. Christianity (idolatry) will be banned and Hebrew monotheism enforced under penalty of death.  (Zohar I 25b, 47a, 60a, etc.)

Titus destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD and Bar Kokhba failed to bring in the Messianic kingdom in his revolt of the Jews in 135 AD.  Recognizing God's clear judgment on them, Jewry everywhere accepted His conditional terms for reoccupation of Palestine.  Such remained unquestioned dogma for religious Jews until emergence of Zionism in the late 19th century. 

Secular Zionism discounted Old Testament conditional terms of occupation. Obedience no longer mattered.  According to Zionism, the overwhelming issue facing Jewry was how to find a safe place in an allegedly anti-Semitic world. Uganda and Madagascar were considered, but charismatic and determined leaders like Theodore Herzl convinced secular Jews (largely Marxist from Eastern Europe) they could find such safety in Palestine.

19th Century Christians Agreed with Jews: No Obedience, No Land

For 1900 years Christians shared the basic belief of Orthodox Jews that Jewish sin caused exile and Jews should not return to Palestine. Most Christians believed their return would be permitted at the second coming of Christ when a remnant would repent.

Zionism was massively funded by western Jewry and promoted particularly by the British and their Balfour Declaration. Zionism had one virtue which made it irresistible to both Jews and evangelicals: It was extremely successful.

Most Jews and evangelical Christians quickly succumbed to the argument that God’s conditional terms were part of a previous Old Testament dispensation (as Scofield taught). (See "A Simple Explanation of Scofield Dispensationalism") Zionism’s success seemed to confirm that God was waiving His previous demands for obedience. Clearly, the safety and prosperity of His chosen people now took precedence. Both Jews and Christians began to teach that God's top priority was to provide refuge to persecuted world Jewry. Most completely dismissed God’s conditional terms of occupation, which were incompatible with the new theology.

Today, evangelicals have set aside God's Old Testament requirements and have no idea of their ancestors’ convictions.  They reason from a distorted interpretation of God's covenant with Abraham, saying its blessings are unconditional for all Jews.  They perfectly agree with secular Zionists that Jewish obedience no longer matters.  As a result, conditional Scriptures are not part of the premises from which modern Jews and evangelicals reason about the Mideast.

The Problem of the Palestinians

Yet there existed for the Zionists a major obstacle to repopulation of Palestine by Jews. In 1914, there were 634,133 Muslim and Christian Arabs occupying the lands which Jews and evangelicals now believed Jews had divine exclusive right to settle. The question was: “How should Jews and Christians regard the Palestinians in the context of God’s new pleasure in restoring Israel to occupation of Palestine?”

The fundamental attitude of Jews and evangelicals was simple, as it remains today. The Palestinians were a riff-raff people who had no long-term right to live on land hallowed for the Jews. They should somehow just go away, perhaps to surrounding Arab nations. If the land they lived on could not be purchased and they happened to be forced off through unpleasant means (including terrorist violence, mass expulsions, government seizure for “security reasons,” etc.), religious Jews and evangelicals did not want to think about that.

This brings up an unwelcome Biblical fact that Jews and most evangelicals also want to ignore.  When Nebuchadnezzar exiled the southern kingdom of Judah to Babylon in 597 BC, God forbade any Jews but the poorest to live in Palestine. He allowed settlers from Babylonian lands to occupy and cultivate the land. When Jesus came six centuries later, the Jews of Palestine accepted the divine right of such scorned “Samaritans” to occupy most of northern Israel and what is now the West Bank. When the Jews were again exiled by the Romans, the right of the Samaritans and Arabs to tend the land was upheld. As a result, with Jews primarily dispersed into Europe and Western lands for more than 1800 years, Palestinian Arabs continued to be regarded by Jews and Christians as enjoying a divine mandate of occupation. Originally allowed by God to cultivate and tend the land, such descendants of the Babylonian colonists of Samaria, racially mixed with Arabs, became unrivalled agriculturalists of the Mideast.

During the nearly two millennia of Jewish exile, Christians and Jews agreed that Palestinians had divine rights to temporarily dwell in Palestine without threat of eviction. Jews and Christians were thus pro-Palestinian, but not in granting permanent ownership of Palestine to the Palestinians (something the Bible allows only to Christian Jews).  Instead, they unquestionably upheld the original tenant rights God gave the ancestors of the Palestinians as long as the Jews remained in unbelief.

Summary

From this discussion, we can see that, although the Jews were given Palestine by Christian nations for ostensibly Biblical reasons, the premises on which almost everyone today reasons concerning the Israeli/Arab conflict are not at all Biblical. They were provided by secular Zionism, overturning Biblical precedent.

Is it any wonder, then, that the Jewish occupation of Palestine beginning in the 20th century has only produced strife and confusion? There is little anyone can do to return the state of Israel to God’s law, as contained in the Jews’ own Torah. But the least every Bible-believing Christian should do is reason not from premises supplied by Bible-destroying Zionists but from the Bible itself.

Did evangelicals and Jews, disregarding God's law, obtain a safe haven for world Jewry?  Prime Minister Netanyahu said last year that Israel is the most dangerous place on earth for a Jew to live.

"There is no peace, saith the Lord, unto the wicked." (Isaiah 48:22)

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 5 Dec 2012 6:02:16 PM Close

 

Dear readers,
 
I am not a Prophesy buff. By this I am saying that it is easy to say what will happen in future through misapplications and misinterpretations and keep on changing the stories as needed as long as there is audience. Prophetic messages are often over-sensationalized but never lacked enthusiastic crowd. Yet, I am not forgetting the fact that many might have come to Christ through prophetic messages. I am a firm believer of basing our messages on the Bible rather than the evening news or the headline stories. Here we have Mr. Ted Pike. By the way, did you know Ted Pike celebrated Hitler’s birthday in 2011 with anti-Israel demonstrations? [Based on news article in Google] 
 
Obviously Mr. Ted Pike failed to read Matthew 23 when he wrote “He will soften the hearts of Jews everywhere to seek the God of their Pharisaic forefathers.”  Let me urge you to read and see what Lord Jesus Christ had to say about the Pharisees. Now Mr. Pike is waiting for the Jews to follow their pattern!!!
 
I am not going to pick apart everything on this article because this was quoted here by an unknown poster with a screen-name ‘alertbelievers’ and he or she may or may not stand behind this. But readers beware of such articles. Ted hasn’t read one verse from Zachariah 9-14 or applied here. Yet he pretends to know a lot about the future of Israel. How could the nation of Israel be on the verge of absolute destruction and on the path of fleeing as we see in Zachariah & Revelation without them being gathered together prior to it? It is obvious that what they have now is a temporary shelter and they could very well be found running for their lives. That is when the Lord Jesus Christ would come for the second time as the King and destroy Israel’s enemies. So, this temporary gathering seems to be very ideal situation leading to the final attempted disperse and destruction.  
 
These false teachers mislead people with half-truths. Ted is doing the same thing. He failed to look at Daniel 12, Zachariah 9-14 & the book of Revelation and pronounce the end time schedules by speaking contrary to the Lord Jesus Christ’s teachings; particularly promoting to follow the Pharisees. Go figure!
 
Here is another deceptive move from Ted. He quoted Isaiah 48:22 [There is no peace,” says the Lord, “for the wicked.”] as though that applies to the people of Israel. Friends, read verse 21 which leads to 22 and see for yourself!

When He led them through the deserts;
He caused the waters to flow from the rock for them;
He also split the rock, and the waters gushed out.”

 
“Say, “The Lord has redeemed
His servant Jacob!”
21 And they did not thirst
Now comes verse 22 – “There is no peace,” says the Lord, “for the wicked.” Who is the LORD calling the wicked here?
 

 
Mr. Ted & alertbeliver, why are you twisting the God’s word around to ‘fit’ your strange idea?
 
‘Alertbeliver,’ whether you know it or not, you seem to be in cahoots with a false teacher. Before you respond, study Daniel 12, Zachariah 9-14. Also, read Matthew 23 and see what the Lord says about the Pharisees. Also, unless you take full responsibility of what is written as your own view, please don’t expect me to perform shadowboxing against some internet article. I will respond only after you take time and study Matthew 23, Daniel 12, Zac. 9-14 and relating passages from the book of Revelation. Otherwise it will be a waste of time.  
 
Tom Johns
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 6 Dec 2012 1:53:54 PM Close

Dear 'alertbelievers,'

As a group, did you pray for the peace of Jerusalem?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 7 Dec 2012 9:35:18 AM Close

 

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem?

(Adopted)

Why hasn’t God answered this very specific prayer when He told us to “pray for the peace of Jerusalem” (Psalm 122:6a)? He even promises a reward for doing so: “May they prosper who love you” (:6b). Many are praying, why isn’t He answering? Throughout the ages and increasingly in our modern era since Israel is back in her own land, many Christians, have been praying for peace in Jerusalem and for security within Israel’s borders. And yet, peace and security seem to be so far from reality. Why is that? Could we be missing something when we pray for peace and security for the nation of Israel and for Jerusalem? It’s surely not lack of love for her from those who pray for her, so what can it be? Why does there continue to be no peace?

We pray for the land and for the ultimate peace, the salvation of the people of Israel. We pray for God to protect and enlarge the borders and that He would not allow the world to pressure Israel into giving up her land. But based on that one verse in Psalm 122, if you read it in Hebrew, even the Christians who have a heart for Israel are praying are praying amiss! The problem lies exactly here. You see, reading the verse in Hebrew in which, of course, it was originally written, we see that the verse does not require us to pray that there will be peace in Jerusalem at all. Actually, when one reads the Biblical end time prophecies carefully, it becomes quite clear that peace in Jerusalem is entirely out of the picture at this time.

If we’re not to pray for her peace, what does verse :6 tell us to do? A more accurate translation of this commandment is, "Ask how is Jerusalem doing." The same phrase appears when Jeremiah describes the fatal situation in Jerusalem, and then stops and cries out, "Who will have pity on you, Jerusalem? Who will mourn for you? Who will stop to ask how you are?" (Jer. 15:5)? This phrase, "Who will ask how you are?" is the same as the one in Ps. 122:6 which is wrongly translated as a command to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. This phrase does not ask us to pray automatically for peace, but to get involved, to express interest, to develop a relationship with the land and the people, so we can know how they are really doing. Then we will begin to see why there is no peace within her walls.

Peace within Jerusalem would mean peace for all of Israel ultimately. Though the world has not recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, we believe that if there were peace in Jerusalem, there would be peace in the Middle East, at least where Israel is concerned. But alas, no peace seems forthcoming. In fact, things are deteriorating even as we write. Then is it possible that those of us who have been praying for peace within Jerusalem may be working against God's will? We know this is a radical statement, but you see, peaceful borders are not the core issue with God. It has never been the core issue throughout the whole of the Bible’s unfolding story. Wars and swords and exile — all those horrors that He allowed to be inflicted upon His people have been His way to attract their attention, to turn them back to Him. Their borders were never in the hands of men, no matter how powerful the leader. Borders are always in the Hands of God alone. He is the one who determines and established them.

Whenever God warned His people of war or lack of peace, it was not because they gave away land. It was only because of two main reasons: 1) idolatry or looking elsewhere for help other than to Him; 2) Injustice and oppression of those who live in the margins of society, such as the needy, the aliens, the orphans and the widows. One of the first things Yehovah spoke to Israel about when they finally crossed over the Jordan into the Promised Land was about maintaining justice, to have no favorites, to take care of your poor including widows and orphans. Torah commanded that there be no special treatment for anyone, no recognition of the rich or setting the poor aside. Disputes were to be judged righteously with no bribes or favoritism. Injustice is contrary to the very nature of God, just as idolatry is as rebellion against the very character and nature of God. He is the Sovereign Creator and Lord of all there is and He rains on the just and unjust all equally. So you can see why idolatry or replacing trust in God with trust in anything else, or injustice, are God’s calls for discipline.

"This is what the Lord Almighty said: “‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. Do not plot evil against each other.’ But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and covered their ears. They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the Lord Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the Lord Almighty was very angry. ‘When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I would not listen,’ says the Lord Almighty. ‘I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations, where they were strangers. The land they left behind them was so desolate that no one traveled through it. This is how they made the pleasant land desolate” (Zechariah. 7:8-14).

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 7 Dec 2012 9:41:03 AM Close

We have been praying about the results and forgetting the cause.

Israel is negotiating here with her enemies in order to have some peace within her walls, but God will not allow it. Israel should focus on returning to Him and on her moral condition if she wants to enjoy peace and secure borders. So you see that our prayer focus has been in the wrong place. We have been praying about the results and forgetting the cause. We’re asking God to fix the judgment instead of praying that the reason for the judgment would be rectified.

Is Israel under judgment today? Israel is both blessed and protected to some extent, but she is also under severe judgment. If she were not, her enemies would not be able to harass her. As long as the children of Israel were walking with God in righteousness and justice, God gave them peace with their enemies. During the period of the Judges, for instance, Israel repeatedly strayed from God into the idolatry of her neighbors, and immediately suffered terrible consequences. Once out from under God’s protection by her own choice, Israel was subjected to the plans of the enemy to destroy her.

From Abraham onward, Israel has always been God’s revelation to the world of Himself. Then there is the fact that “salvation is from the Jews” (John 4:22). So if or when Israel stepped out from under the covering of God’s umbrella, so to speak, they were on their own and victims of satan’s plans for their demise. From day one the Israelites failed to inherit the entire Land and to drive out the local inhabitants (Judges 1:27-33). God did not punish them for that, but for the influence these inhabitants had on the nation, for the idol worship that was brought in (Judges 2:2-3).

When they found themselves in that kind of trouble, they once again remembered God and His promises to them and cried out to Him in repentance. He always responds to genuine repentance and so, great gracious God that He is, He took her back and restored her to Himself and forty years of peace was enjoyed. But then the next generation seems to have forgotten God again. Off they go on another round until they cry out to God in the crises they find themselves in with their enemies, and return to God for yet another forty years of peace.

Today God has restored Israel to the land He gave to Abraham. Despite the dispersion of Jews the world over, one statistic is that Jews are coming “back home” to live in Israel from 86 different nations with 112 different languages. And this is not even a current statistic; it is likely higher today. Actually, 2011 was the first time since 70 A.D. that the number of Jews in Israel is larger than the numbers of those who live in Diaspora. Indeed, God is restoring His people to their land.

As I (Orna), as an Israeli, traveled the States recently, I was surprised to find out that the very people who care about Israel, and who dedicate time to pray for her, do not really know how she is doing. Most people were only interested to hear about foreign affairs and the upcoming UN resolution concerning the statehood of the Palestinian authority. They did not have a clue that multitudes of Israelis, hundreds of thousands, were spending the entire impossibly humid summer months in tents all across the country, pleading for social justice. Most of the Christians I met did not know that the former president of Israel, the number one citizen, Mr. Moshe Katsav, was about to go to jail for raping his secretaries. They never heard of other Knesset members who are already in jail for corruption or for sexual harassment. Almost all prayer warriors I had met were clueless about all these matters. They knew a lot about border issues, about the Iranian nuclear system and about military issues concerning the Middle East, but very little, if anything, about the two main reasons for which God judges His nation with restless borders, the level of justice and righteousness in the land, and the level of idolatry.

If Israel will settle these two issues, peace will be the automatic result. When we pray that there will be peace, and ignore the reasons for lack of peace, we are somewhat resisting God's method of pulling Israel back to Him. If He will breathe peace upon the borders of Israel in spite of the present idolatry and injustice, fewer and fewer Israelis will even bother to seek His face.

So… how is Jerusalem doing? How should you pray for her?

The word “widow” in the Hebrew of the Old Testament does not only mean a woman without a husband. Its Biblical meaning is much broader than the one we ascribe to it today. It means a woman, a city or a nation who is in ruin, who has no provider and no one to help her manage her life. The OT refers to Israel as a widow (Lam. 1:1 for example, or Isa. 54:4) not because her Husband died, but because she does not consider Him as her provider. And although Israel flourishes in many ways, she is in total ruin spiritually and on a downhill road toward a complete moral desolation.

The Bible makes it very clear that the Lord hears the cry of the widow and the fatherless, and acts upon it. “Do not take advantage of the widow or the fatherless. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless" (Ex. 22:22-24). When we turn a deaf ear to the misery and needs of those who live in the margins of society, they automatically cry out to God. Unlike us, He does not turn a deaf ear. He does not cross the street and leave the job for someone else. He acts upon it. And when it comes to Israel, He judges the entire nation by bringing a sword (war) and enemies to her borders.

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 7 Dec 2012 9:44:28 AM Close

So in an odd way, against all logic, it is the widow and what she symbolizes as the neediest of the needy who establishes the borders of Israel, and not any army or leader. Although those who cry to God suffer the punishment as well, when the entire nation is under judgment, it is the widow who has the power, with her very own mouth, to pray differently to her Husband who is the Lord. Has Vehalila

While part of this article was written by Orna, she has a legitimate perspective on widows and orphans. She has a ministry in Israel to impart these teaching to such broken hearted widows and orphans to turn their eyes to God and to let Him restore their ruins, to allow Him to become the One who manages them and provides for them. Once the fatherless and the widows do that, their story of misery and brokenness becomes a story of a sign and an example to God's Lordship, the very reason her ministry is called Ot U’Mofet, in Hebrew “a sign and a wonder.” Typical of God's system: just like His blood can cleanse (where any other blood only defiles), and His death can give us life, so also do the weakest and seemingly most unnecessary members of the body be the ones we need the most (see I Cor. 12: 22). We consider them as shameful members, but God sees them as members that deserve greater honor (v. 23).

While with us in the states, Orna shared about the level of injustice and oppression that goes on in Israel, about the level of atheism (for the most part, Israel does not know her Messiah, her Maker and her Husband) and idolatry that sweeps the Land. The number of abortions in Israel is outrageous because Israel needs her soldiers, male and female, and so the army pays for the abortions. The holocaust survivors in Israel, the few who are still alive, are walking around in poverty, not having enough money to buy food or proper medication. And this is not because of lack of funds. Compensation funds are being poured into the country from Germany. It is because of mismanagement of interior affairs. It is hard to fight the war that Israel continually deals with and still maintain the inner structure when so much of its budget goes to the war effort. As a result these people don't have a voice. It is because the leadership is mostly busy with border issues and fails to identify the real cause for ongoing threat at the borders.

Most of the capital in Israel, the wealth and the media, are in the hands of about 15 families. They control almost everything in Israel - from the price of cheese to the outrageous rate of rent. Money is the name of the game, not righteousness, and in that game those who have nothing are doomed to poverty. Those who have little will soon join the ranks of those who have nothing, and those who have much will become richer.

This may work in other western nations, but not in Israel. Israel desperately needs her middle class to survive. These are the people who serve in the army and pay taxes - not the poor, nor the rich. And these are the people who are protesting now, for the first time ever, to the impossibility of living in the land.

And Israel's Husband, who loves her in spite of her harlotry, keeps luring her back to Him just a Hosea did with Gomer. He creates endless opportunities for her to return to Him, to rely on His mighty Arm and not on any other arms, to seek His face and to restore righteousness. Should we stand in His way or co-operate with His plan?

How than shall we pray for Israel, so that she will eventually be able to enjoy peace? Our prayers must focus on the root issue, on the pain of the widow who is weeping for someone to manage her, someone to lean on. We need to pray for the leadership of Israel to do what they must do, but in the trust in the Lord and to leave the results to God — including trusting Him with the borders. And not the other way around.

Golda Meier once
said that Israel is easy to love
from afar...

The last verses of Ps. 122 speak about our brothers and companions, about the house of the Lord. "For their sake", the psalmist says, "I will pray for your peace." Which brings up the important prayer that many Christians neglect. When you pray for Israel, are you bothering to find out how your brothers and sisters in the Lord are doing in Israel? Are you aware of the persecution that goes on there? Do your prayers focus on their wellbeing and their needs? And for God to restore righteousness to the Israeli people, that they would once again cry out to God in repentance, recognizing their need for Him as well as He great grace toward them in keeping them as He has done through much opposition. The part of the verse that says, “They shall prosper that love her” means that those who are praying must love her beyond having a fond feeling, but no involvement. Golda Meier once said that Israel is easy to love from afar, that is to say, uninvolved. To truly love Israel, like loving anyone, even a country, one must be familiar with her goings on, the issues she must deal with and care enough to find out what to pray, at the least.

You have an opportunity to partner with the Lord in His quest to have Israel restored to righteousness and to the Lord in faith. Perhaps it is the caring of the believing community that will finally break the resistance to the Gospel and bring Israeli’s to know their own Messiah. When they do, the grace and favor of God will flow into the land and trigger the return of Yeshua who said to His Jewish disciples, “You will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is the name of the Lord” (Matthew 21:9; 33:39). If we will pray properly and on target, with caring and a heart toward the real issues with regard to Israel — righteousness and justice — God will take care of the rest. Your prayers matter!!

P.S. The same issues can apply to praying for America or any country. God’s issues are always the same.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Dec 2012 2:13:57 PM Close

Dear 'alertbelievers,'

My question was simple.  Instead of answering, you made a posting of three frames.  Could you tell, as a group, did you pray for the peace of Jerusalem?  Your answer need not be more than two sentences.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 8 Dec 2012 4:28:08 AM Close

Tom Johns : “By the way, did you know Ted Pike celebrated Hitler’s birthday in 2011 with anti-Israel demonstrations? [Based on news article in Google]”

My request: Please furnish the web link of the news article in Google. By the way do you know there exists a historical fact that Zionists had an unholy alliance with Nazis to create a modern day Israel?

Follow this link: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/nazisupport.cfm

Pleas note owners of this web site are the Jews very much, not ‘anti semites’

Tom Johns: “Here is another deceptive move from Ted. He quoted Isaiah 48:22 [There is no peace,” says the Lord, “for the wicked.”] as though that applies to the people of Israel”

Isaiah is not to be applied to the common public of Israel, but only to the founders of Zionism and its guardians today.  Read the following witness from a Jew (http://www.henrymakow.com/allyn_pike.html):

“David said (January 9, 2012):

As a 70 years old Jew, I am reading every single one of your articles.
I am amazed that you, almost alone, have been so successful in exposing the evil Zionists and Rabbis who are manipulating our religion.

We, the majority of Jews, have no way to express ourselves, as all the media is totally controlled by 7 satanic/Jewish/Zionist Americans.
http://www.rense.com/general44/sevenjewishamericans.htm

I know of Ted Pike for over 40 years. I trust every single word he says.

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 8 Dec 2012 6:29:40 AM Close

Have you stopped stealing Mr.G P Koshy? My question is simple, say only 'Yes' or 'No'. No more explanation.

My posts are not to answer your question, but for the common understanding of the readers. Then, where from the New Testament have you taken that command?

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Dec 2012 2:48:31 PM Close

 

Dear 'alertbelievers,'
 
To my post of 7 Dec 2012, you made a posting on 8 Dec 2012. However, that posting did not have the answer to my question. Instead, this is what you wrote, “Have you stopped stealing Mr.G P Koshy? My question is simple, say only 'Yes' or 'No'.”  Your question is not only a rhetorical one, but also lacks any connection to the subject of this thread. Are you trying to highjack this thread into a nonsensical overcrowded verbal-beach-volleyball with malicious intent? I do not answer rhetorical questions. This I have made it known before. However, let me say this much, you have not stop stealing. You stole and thought that it will not be discovered. That is why you asked a rhetorical question without answering a reasonable question. If not, could you answer your own question?
 
Let me repeat my reasonable question: Did you pray for the peace of Jerusalem?
 
You asked me another rhetorical question, and that was, “My posts are not to answer your question, but for the common understanding of the readers. Then, where from the New Testament have you taken that command?” Let me remind you that I am a reader and by your own admission you write for the common understanding of the readers. Then why don’t you answer my question, and it was whether you prayed for the peace of Jerusalem? Do you really want to know about the New Testament command about the Old Testament? If you are ignorant about the inspiration of the Scriptures along with its immutability and inerrancy, you should take some time to search the Scriptures. For a beginner, not as a follower of Hitler and his carnivoracity against the Jews, you should read Matthew 5:18, Luke 10:26, and 2 Timothy 3:16-17. I used the word ‘carnivoracity’ as a nonce word.
 
You should remember that this thread is not for or against Jews, but to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 18 Dec 2012 7:24:47 AM Close

There are certain questions which may look simple but critical as are gone through.  Such questions need some clear explanation.  Answering them in a sentence or two may not serve a profitable purpose. I have asked a ‘simple’ question to Mr.Koshy in my post dt.08.12.12 not seeking an answer from him, but to make him knowing how his ‘simple’ question in his post dt.06.12.12 is actually a critical one as that of mine.

When I asked him whether he has stopped stealing and said that his answer must be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’, he can not answer as I asked and he will not.  He would answer differently with some explanation.  It is inevitable for him and he had answered so in his post. dt.10 Dec 2012 14:48:31.

As I thought of answering his critical question ‘As a group, did you pray for the peace of Jerusalem?’ and was mulling over how to write, I came across one article that speaks much eloquently on this issue which I presented here on 07.12.12 as a series of three postings. I made the postings not just to answer Koshy, rather as food for thought to the general readers.  

Interestingly the author of that article, Mr.Sid Roth, himself is a Jew and a Judean Christian by faith (http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer?pagename=sid_aboutSid). What he has written in his article is worth considering (http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=art_&page=NewsArticle&id=11049&news_iv_ctrl=1051)

Any way, I have to say something on my part on this issue of praying for the peace of Jerusalem.

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 18 Dec 2012 8:45:20 AM Close

Pray for the repentance of Jerusalem

There is no specific instructions to the Christian believers we can read in the New Testament to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Any advice, any admonition, any instruction, whatever we read in the New Testament is for the spiritual benefit, growth and peace of the believers only.  Even Paul’s desire was that Jews must be saved, not that they had to inherit the earthly kingdom in Israel (Roman 10:1). As long as the Jews reject Christ, they can never receive peace. In believing Christ, they are much worse than Muslims. Muslims may hate Christians severally, but they do not hate Christ apparently. They consider Him at least a prophet and they do not denigrate Christ in any manner.  Whereas most of the Jews who follow Kabalistic rituals hate Christ Himself to the core of their heart. Scripture says that if anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Cori 16:22).  How can these Jews who call the Lord Jesus Christ a son of whore and believe that Jesus is now boiling in hot excrement, receive peace? How can the Father in heaven bring peace to these haters of Christ, His Son? 

To my understanding, I believe that God chose Israel once as His witness to this world there by others may also turn unto God. Because, God is the Lord, the God of all flesh (Jer 32:27). Whenever the Israelites spoiled the witness, they suffered a lot in the hands of God. Let us read Isa 29:1-6:

“Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt!
Add year to year;
Let feasts come around.
Yet I will distress Ariel;
There shall be heaviness and sorrow,
And it shall be to Me as Ariel.
I will encamp against you all around,
I will lay siege against you with a mound,
And I will raise siege works against you.
You shall be brought down,
You shall speak out of the ground;
Your speech shall be low, out of the dust;
Your voice shall be like a medium’s, out of the ground;
And your speech shall whisper out of the dust.

“Moreover the multitude of your foes
Shall be like fine dust,
And the multitude of the terrible ones
Like chaff that passes away;
Yes, it shall be in an instant, suddenly.
Lord of hostsYou will be punished by the
With thunder and earthquake and great noise,
With storm and tempest
And the flame of devouring fire.

There are many portions of Scriptures in the OT that speaks for and against Israel. I am not able to find which one is the final prophetic verse that speaks for the peace of Jerusalem. Why should not the turmoil what we see today in and around Jerusalem be permitted by God? In Zechariah 14, we read the following:

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity
.

If the Jerusalem is not God fearing and does not love Christ, why should we pray for its earthly peace (Jer 14:11)?

To be peaceful, people of Jerusalem should heed to what Peter says (Acts 2:20 onwards). Christians mind should be on heavenly Jerusalem (Re 21:10). And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it (V 24).  Here, there is no shortcoming for peace.

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 20 Dec 2012 10:36:57 AM Close

Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.  But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother – Gala 4:25, 26 

Paul’s equating the earthly Jerusalem to slave Hagar, is thought provoking. Then, Paul says ‘But the Jerusalem that is above(i.e, Heavenly Jerusalem) is free (i.e, peaceful) and the mother of believers.

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 22 Dec 2012 9:11:43 PM Close

 

Dear GPK

Which is the verse you are referring to?

Have you ever prayed for the peace of Jerusalem? Are you still Praying for the peace of Jerusalem? Have you stopped praying for the peace of Jerusalem?

Thanks for a reply

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2012 4:09:05 PM Close

While we all like Jerusalem to be peaceful – unfortunately is not going to happen, the curse which they asked for will continue till the end of the world with wars and desolations:

Matthew 27:24-25

King James Version (KJV)

24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Daniel 9:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The above scripture refer to the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD which will be followed by wars and desolations till the end.  Due to war and desolations most of the current streets of the city are about 40 ft above the original streets level.

 

Bobby Chacko

 

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Jan 2013 4:30:44 PM Close

 

Dear ‘alerbelievers,’
 
On 8 Dec 2012, you wrote, Have you stopped stealing Mr.G P Koshy? My question is simple, say only 'Yes' or 'No'. No more explanation.
My posts are not to answer your question, but for the common understanding of the readers. Then, where from the New Testament have you taken that command?”
 I wrote on 10 Dec 2012, “If not, could you answer your own question?” You wrote on 18 Dec 2012, I have asked a ‘simple’ question to Mr.Koshy in my post dt.08.12.12 not seeking an answer from him, …” Your question of 10 Dec 2012 is not a simple one, as you claim. It is a trap question while my question regarding the praying for the peace of Jerusalem is not a trap question. It was in response to your writing in the lines of Hitler’s carnivoracity.
 
To the unsuspecting readers, your question of 10 Dec 2012 may appear to be simple.  However, it is patterned after the political ingenuity of this world to catch the other person in a trap. I asked you to answer your own question. If it was not a trap question, you would have answered it using your own criteria. You would have replied with the two options that you provided for your leading question, on 8 Dec 2012. That answer should have been “Yes” or “No.”
 
Instead, you went on to say that you were not expecting an answer from me. However, I expect an answer from you on your leading question about stealing.
 
Did you “pray for the peace of Jerusalem?”
 
******            ******            ******            ****** 
 
To those who are unaware of the use of ‘leading questions,’ let me explain:
 
A leading question is posed to catch the opponent in a trap. When a person asks such a question, then he/she is considering the one who is dialoging with him/her as an opponent. The person who asks the leading question is admitting that he/she has no logical standing before the other person in their dialogue. When such a situation exists, then the person would resort to asking rhetorical questions that are leading questions. That is, he/she is trying to lead the other person to a situation of no return. Let us consider the question posed by the ‘alertbelievers.’ (He/she was not so alert in asking the question.) One of the characteristic of a leading question is that they provide the answers and limit it to “Yes” or “No” answer. That is similar to the political poling conducted lead the public to establish what the polling group wants to establish and not what the respondent thinks. The trap is in the answer that is given.
 
They always ask similar questions. In our case the leading question posed by ‘alerbelievers’ was, Have you stopped stealing Mr.G P Koshy? My question is simple, say only 'Yes' or 'No'. No more explanation.”  The question looks simple and innocent. However, it is not. You will come to know about the deception and the trap, only if you try to answer that questions as required by the person asking it. Suppose your answer is “Yes.” Then the person who posed the question will come back saying, “That means you stole things in the past. You are a reformed thief.” He may also add that you are an untrustworthy thief who steals. Suppose your answer is a so called simple “No.” If you do that, then you will be accused as a person who continues to steal. In either case, you are in trouble, because you tried to answer an innocent looking but potentially dangerous and complex question. Such questions are for the politicians to handle.
 
Before I close, allow me to give you another similar question. It is not for you to answer, but for you to be aware of rhetorical traps posed as leading questions. These are ‘leading questions,’ because they are used to lead when you trust the other person, who does not deserved to be trusted. Another leading question is: “Did you stop abusing your spouse? Please answer using ‘Yes’ or ‘No.’ No explanations are required.” If you answer this question, then you will be accused as a spouse abuser of the past or present. We need to be aware of such traps to be pure as a dove.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Jan 2013 4:44:34 PM Close

Dear Bobby Chacko,

You are by your own admission is a SDA who makes Adam to be the Creator, Elohim.  You as a SDA wrote that you learn Truth from the Devil.  You as a SDA also wrote that the prophets of God (example: Daniel and Ezekiel) are the prophets of Satan.  You wrote all these on this Forum.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2013 4:25:54 AM Close

I am praying for the repentance of Jerusalem (Roman 10:1), not for the peace of Jerusalem (Jer 14:11).  As a Christian, my longing is for Heavenly Jerusalem (Gala 4:25, 26; Re 21:10).

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2013 4:35:11 PM Close

 

Dear ‘alertbelievers,’
 
Thank you for writing that you are praying for the repentance of Jerusalem. However, you have not answered your own question, though I asked for it. Let me quote what you wrote on 8 Dec 2012, for your convenience, Have you stopped stealing Mr.G P Koshy? My question is simple, say only 'Yes' or 'No'. No more explanation.
My posts are not to answer your question, but for the common understanding of the readers. Then, where from the New Testament have you taken that command?”
 Am I right, if I say that I have requested you to answer this question, which is your own question, more than once? Of course, I did that. This may be the third time I am asking you to do so. Could your refusal be based on the fact that you were asking a complex and trapping question, a rhetorical and leading question, in the pretext of asking only a simple question? It appears so.
 
Now let me address your posting from 2 Jan 2013:
 
Let me say that Romans 10:1 does not say anything about praying for the repentance of Jerusalem, as you try to make it to be.
 
Let me again say that Jeremiah 14:11 does not say anything about praying for the peace of Jerusalem, as you try to make it to be.
 
Your third attempt using Galatians 4:25, 26 failed to accomplish the purpose, because it does not say anything about praying or not praying for Jerusalem.
 
Your fourth attempt using Revelation 21:10 also failed, because it does not deal with praying for the peace of Jerusalem or even the repentance of Jerusalem.
 
Do you know that the subject of this thread is not the heavenly Jerusalem or the repentance of Jerusalem; but it is, “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem?”
 
If you have searched the Scriptures, without depending on the writings of anti-Jewish Nazi influenced people, and then you would have seen what is written for the edification of the saints in Psalm 122:6 and 128:5. This is given to us as a universal principle and not as a doctrine.
 
Psalm 122:6 is a direct statement, “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem; they shall prosper that love you.”
 
Psalm 128:5 is an indirect one and it reads, “Jehovah will bless you out of Zion; and may you see the good of Jerusalem all the days of your life.”
 
In these two verses from Psalms, you may take the Jerusalem in its literal sense or in its allegorical sense. If you prefer, you may take it in its literal as well as in its allegorical sense. Please remember that it is written more than once about praying for Jerusalem; once directly and then indirectly. However, there are many who read other peoples’ writings and failed to read it even once in the Word of God. The moral of the story is to search the Scriptures.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
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Reply by : alertbelievers   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2013 9:59:52 AM Close

An article in Mr.Sid Roth's web site says clearly  how it is futile to pray for the peace of Jerusalem ( (http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?abbr=art_&page=NewsArticle&id=11049&news_iv_ctrl=1051), as the Jews today are not fearing God in CHRIST. He is not an anti Jewish Nazi influenced person, he is a Jew himslef and a Christian by faith. And Orna Greenman, one of the authors is also an Israeli.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2013 2:37:03 PM Close

 

Dear ‘alertbelievers,’
 
Still you have not answered your “simple” question. Let me quote you again and ask for the fourth time to answer your own question that you claim to be simple. That question is, Have you stopped stealing Mr.G P Koshy? My question is simple, say only 'Yes' or 'No'. No more explanation.
My posts are not to answer your question, but for the common understanding of the readers. Then, where from the New Testament have you taken that command?”
 
If you think that you have to listen to other men rather than God, then your posting of 3 Jan 2013 makes sense. The sense and sensibility of a person depends on whom he/she considers as more authoritative and desirable to listen to. If you think that it is another man and not God, then I have nothing to say on that matter. Eve decided to give more authority to the Serpent’s words comparing them to God’s word. We know the rest of the story.
 
About Jewish Christians, there are many other Jewish Christians. Let me name three of them. They are known as Paul (a.k.a. Saul of Tarsus), John (a.k.a. Son of thunder), and Peter (a.k.a. Simeon). You should read what they wrote as they wrote it. In other words, “search the Scriptures” as instructed by Lord Jesus Christ.
 
I know that you are making these posting as the representative of a group of people.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 28 Aug 2016 7:14:24 AM Close

Let's pray for the peace of Jerusalem  and for that of every nation.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 28 Aug 2016 12:26:58 PM Close

I second you on that KristianJude :-)

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : quazi   View Profile   Since : 28 Aug 2016 8:54:44 PM Close

Matthew 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luke 6:28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Mark 12:31 "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

We can pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Does that mean we should not pray for others? Should we check our neighbors identity before we love them or pray for them? Or are we allowed to pray ONLY for Christians ?

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 29 Aug 2016 8:28:21 AM Close

Quazi,

  1. There is no NT context of praying for current Jerusalem. There is Hebrews 12:22, 2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:2 speaks of what we should hope and wait for. To put that context of prayer for the current Jerusalem is like putting an additional yoke on gentile believers (That is us) like the Jewish believers mentioned in Acts of apostles. If you wish to pray for it, go for it. If you wish to pray for the world. Go for it as well. We have a benevolent God who wished for all mankind to to be saved whether the current Jerusalem is there or not. If he can raise sons of Abraham from the stones, so he can also raise Jerusalem and its inhabitants as and when He deems fit, wherever it is
  2. There are no types of Love. Love is the greatest trait of all and which all believers should possess. It takes care of whoever our neighbour is (Romans 13:10), It imbibes the entirety of the Lord's personality (I Corinthians 13). You cannot say I love this man, but I hate or rather dislike or be indifferent to that man. The Lord loved even Judas Iscariot till the very end. He was forgiving of his captors and torturers. If he can love without conditions applied. So can you if you are guided by His spirit.
  3. Prayer is our communication with God. We pray for His coming. We wish He comes quickly. We pray for strengthening our faith in that hope. We pray for all and there are all kinds of prayers we can go to God with, at HIs throne of grace (Ephesians 6:18; 1 TImothy 2:1-2)

Regards,

Joe

If there is any peace that we should pray for, it should be for the peace of God which surpasses all understanding. (Phillipians 4:7)

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 29 Aug 2016 2:54:07 PM Close

This is where the contention lies.

  1. Forgiveness of sin for all mankind came to earth through Christ. Even with the Pharisees. Who are we to judge whether the Pharisees repented or not? After all, Paul was a Pharisee, Gamaliel was a Pharisee (We do not know if he was saved, let's count on God's mercy), Nicodemus was a Pharisee, Joseph was a leader and so forth. We do not know who was saved or not. Who repented or not. That GOD ONLY knows. Salvation came for all mankind - Jew, Gentiles, Pharisees, Muslim leader, HIndu RSS, KKK for all.
  2. He cast away the people who were making money in the temple. Can anyone show me a verse where he started beating them out of the place? He was/is/will be God's authority. Even when he was brought to a cliff to cast Him down, he simply walked away from their midst. Nobody had power over Him. When he did something in his power and glory, nobody could stand against Him. And yet, he willingly got beaten, scourged and killed for our sins.
  3. When the Jews started gnashing against the Apostles, Stephen and the other believers, they should have also got up and started lashing out according to what is written. Since Love is of 'two types'. Nobody is perfect. But if the love of Christ is truly and fully in us who can separate us from Him? (Romans 8:35). Christian life is about suffering in all walks of life, since we are no more of this world. But as Christ representatives, we have to try and demonstrate this (1 Peter 4:14-16).
  4. If one wishes to pray for Jerusalem, one does so. It is not a forceful compulsion. It is still to be seen where in the NT is written and how it is deciphered in the NT context for gentile believers. 

Regards,

Joe 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Aug 2016 9:06:08 AM Close

KrisitanJude,

As once I stated in my earlier post, that irrespecitve of our understanding and belief which might differ at some points. I respect you for your opinion. 

Therefore, as a brother in Christ to another. You should know ,you and many who have come talk from the Gentile believers aspect of faith and redemption. You are arguing the concept of God's love and forgiveness with some who are 'aspirational' Jews. The situation is the same as it was in the Acts. Forcing traditions which are burdens to people.

It is interesting to see when Christ did say about the dustng off the sandal. The context after His ascension only happened to the Jews  (Acts 18:6), I havent seen the same about the Gentiles - they were far more receptive - how marvellous are the workings of the Lord! 

The debate does not lie in whether we should pray for Jerusalem. The debate lies in the fact that people STRESS we should pray for it. So, if one feels compelled to pray 'especially' for Jerusalem, he/she should do so. But he/she should not force that ulitmatium on others. Nobody is anybody's enemies. 

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 30 Aug 2016 9:21:48 AM Close

Thanks dear...

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Aug 2016 11:49:17 PM Close

There is deep sense of misunderstanding of the passages that are quoted. Some write "They have to open their eyes wide, and keep their minds wide open to understanding, and read them aloud, so aloud that the roof should blow off. I know now that they cannot grasp too much of writing" When they themselves exhibit the nature of someone who since he has a computer needs to type and spew verses for the sake of supporting their argument

  1. It is highly contradictory for one to say they WILL NOT pray for the Arabs. One quotes that they are of Ishamel's seed. And then completely forgets what God's promise for them was through Abraham (Genesis 17:18-20) was. To NOT pray for them after considering them enemies means, you have completely contradicted what God commanded when he said love your neighbour and your enemies. Besides that, It seems some don't even know or understand what they wrote. There are scores of believers who have their livelihood in these 'Arab countries'. By choosing not to pray for the peace of that land where they earn their bread and butter, gather for worship, you have completely gone off lines with such a remarkably poor statement. That too, when it is believers who work in the GCC countries are gratitious patrons of a lot of ministerial funding all across the world by a mile. To not PRAY for them or that country is contradicting what Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy as well (I Timothy 2:2). 
  2. Complete misintepretation of self defense. One quotes what one has believer needs to bethrough 1 Peter 2:21-24, Romans 12:20, 21, 1 Corinthians 4:12 and 1 Peter 3:9. It is all about humility and personifying Christ. No where in these verses, one is called to be violent or to defend oneself, but to show grace to one's troublers. One does not even look what the early believers did in the Acts. No where is it written that they joined hands to defend themeselves. If while having a discussion with a Muslin/Hindu/Buddhist. In the heat of the discussion if he/she strikes you are you supposed to block and kick their brains out on 'act of self defense'? Or if a thief enters the house, and one has a gun. One should shoot him down on 'act of defense'? First of all, why do these situations arise? Is it not because you dont consider the Lord has your protector? Do you think God will test you with more than what you can bear? So Christ asked his disciple to get a sword, do you know what it was for? Or is there another barrage of scripture justifying that the Lord wanted to strike his captors, becasue that is where you are leading to? Would you go and get a sword because it was written that he asked to buy a sword? One needs serious self introspection and examination
  3. One inteprets portions of the others posts as per one's will. There is 'no out of context'. Paul was not a follower of Christ when He was on earth. He became an apostle later, these things where taught him through the spirit and through interaction with the other apostles. There was reason for why the shake of sandals dust was given. It was because of the unbelief and ignorance of Jews. And it as clearly demonstrated in Paul's time through their hard heartedness. One who is an advocate of the OT with all laws surprisngly binding, should read what God and prophets says about the people of Israel and what God's great patience and mercy is about. 
  4. Again one goes into passages of no relevance like in the context of raising the Arab scenario. Christ's sacrifice was for ALL mankind. The reception of that good news was well received by Gentiles and it was demonstrated how Jews used to be an obstacle to all of that in the Acts. There is no question. Salvation is for the Jew and Gentile alike and there was no contention on it. The topic was pray for Jerusalem and who we should pray for
  5. Again. there is no commandment given with regards to Jerusalem in NT. The commandment of Christ is this Mathew 22:35-40. When one does this, one loves unconditionally and one prays for all and not selectively. One prays for God's mercy on all man. (Pslams 103:8, Micah 7:18, Titus 2:11-12)

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 31 Aug 2016 4:32:49 AM Close

It clearly shows that you realy dont read what you write and therefore you will keep arguing for this. 

  1. Irrespective of Gods covenant with Issac, God still blessed Ishmael through Abraham. We are also blessed through Christ even though we not part/kin of Israel. God promised his blessing to Ishmael and his seed. Your statement regarding the people who work in Arab countries clearly shows your apathy. If you dont want to pray, dont pray. But what you just wrote shows your true nature. Nobody who is governed by the spirit would have stated what you have just did. I never said Arabs paid or send money. The believers who toil there contribute willingly to the Lord's causes. You have not justified any of the verses that I put forth except for a rambling: . If you have sympathy for them go and work for them, love them and pray for them. Do you think God wants money from those who are not His people? No. They are of no value in the sight of God. 
  2.  I still stand by what I wrote about the tabernacle. Because according to you the tabernacle is an immovable object. Of course, you will even go to the extent saying that it is 'that tent' which was holy. You might even argue that there was some mangoes in it and moving it would have caused it to damage and weather conditions might have ruined those mangoes. That is how your arguments form and then go on to tangents with some verses randomly dropped. After which you when you cant win, considering you are a senior citizen by the way you write, you will ramble and call people names and accuse them of heresy. You have a fixed pattern, by now everyone knows that
  3. See that is your logic about self defense. Let me give you a small example: http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20160526-the-village-with-no-locks-or-doors (ref: BBC all copyright and attributes to BBC for this article and link). This is small village in some rural part of India which has NO doors or Locks. Do you see the confidence of this small village which does not even have one watchman or does not require it believing in a pagan god? And you who is supposedly a believer talk about protecting yourself. That was not even the topic. It was about self defense. What do you mean by self defense against a natural calamity?  Again your random tangent, when was there a talking about calamity? Who is writing nonsense, you or me?
  4. So who blinded the eyes of the Jews? Do you read or just put chapters cause you want me to read it and explain it to you? What purpose does it hold to you a gentile whether the Jew is saved or not, if his/her eyes are opened? Are you saying tomorrow if an Arab believes, you will scorn at him but will accept a Jew who believes? Do you read what is written in 11:28 or is that something just written there for the sake of writing? God has sealed his elect in Israel. He knows who He has chosen. But as a gentile, should you not be more concerned about your gentile brethren MORE than the Jewish one? Read Romans 11: 28 onwards: Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. The stress is:  through the mercy shown you (gentiles) they also may obtain mercy (Jews). Is that not a great honor for a gentile believer or are you going to ramble on?  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
  5. Can you show me just one verse where it is written please pray for Jerusalem in the context of Gentiles in the NT. And then like Christ said, then I will say by which authority I stated that. I never said that one should not pray for Jerusalem. I said, my contention is to those who STRESS that we SHOULD pray for it. 

In any such case, you may continue your rambling, by showing your disegard for the believers in the Arab countries, you will have your answers from some people here after they read your posts. You may continue to turn from the US of A towards Jerusalem, bow down and pray for its Peace. Nobody will stop you.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 31 Aug 2016 9:21:50 AM Close

Well, As always you ramble on and type verses and all that. Of course, I am happy you refrained my using obscene language atleast. And then justify it :-)

  1. You say this: And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren (Genesis 16:12). I am sure you must be frothing thinking I have won my baseless argument. But you forget to read this: And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (Genesis 17:12). Oh so sad, that the Lord told this to Abraham, cause now you can only put some random accusation and have no bases of argument. Do you know who that was told about? Or do you refuse to read Genesis 21:18 and 20.What was God doing with the Arab people's forefather? I never argued with you on who had the convenant. You need to go back and read first on what I wrote. What is the grace that we have through the Lord even though we are NOT kith and kin of Abraham.
  2. Did you understand the question or do you have some issues reading? No point discussing it
  3. You can go again with the tabernacle at Gibeon. You said it was permanentely placed there. Stated again. You completely forgo the fact of what the tabernacle stands for. And what David did. Or what was the necessary elements in creating a tabernacle. Therefore for you, you can say it is placed in Gibeon. You should read I king 8 and see from where the things and all where borught to the temple. You might be surprised to see the words 'tabernacle of meeting'. Shocking right? to find that it was not taken from Gibeon, but from the city of David. Sad, really sad on how you comprehend things. Anyways, I expect another barrage of verbal assaults of no meaning so not concerned. Incidentally, just to give you some more references. They are: On second thoughts, do find them on your own. You are the OT man. Every knowledgeable. . So I guess they must have taken papayas and mangoes from Gibeon. This is all atrributed to you and the type of understanding you have
  4. Apostle Paul was appreciaive of the Greeks, (Acts 17:22 onwards). To the fact that they were religious. See again, selective reading habits. I wrote after that. Do you see the confidence of this small village which does not even have one watchman or does not require it believing in a pagan god? And you who is supposedly a believer talk about protecting yourself I was trying to establish a fact which is present and what they believe in currently. Whether it changes or not, is another discussion. Which of course I would not want to have with you. If they can have traditions of past and confidence based on some deity, should not that only strengthen on what our conviction in the Lord's protection who is real and invincible? That is something you will not see or understand, since you prefer to be called a citizen of the USA (your statement) rather than the citizen of heaven. So again in my earlier post it is thus: God will not test you on more than you can bear. 
  5. Romans 11: 25. Here again. You stopped there. What about the rest? That went in the air? Please read carefully what i wrote in my earlier post. You NEED to read carefully.
  6. It is not, 'why should you show'. It is 'you cannot show'.  SInce you like this game. Even I dont need to show you anything, this is not a kindergarten session of show and tell.  Though I already did if you referred to my earlier posts.   

Now you hide from the fact of not mentioning/justifying about offending believers who work in the Arab countries. And have gone onto a more specific personal tangent. That is better. Why insult them more and more and incur the wrath of God? Anyway go ahead. You may continue to condemn, call people out and name them heretics. Doesn't really matter. The topic was pray for Jerusalem, you again have managed to divert the discussion to some place unknown. You may continue looking towards Jerusalem and praying for its peace. I will continue hoping and praying for the New Heaven and Jerusalem. The End.

Regards,

Joe.

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Reply by : quazi   View Profile   Since : 31 Aug 2016 7:52:24 PM Close

Seems either webmasters deleted rick's replies or rick himself has deleted his posts. Either way the thread lost its context and continuity. This is what happens when certain replies to a thread are deleted. As long as we don't use any name calling or hollier than thou attitude or smarter than thou approach and refrain from accusations, let the individuals express their views and understanding. Finally it's for the reader to assess what views aligns with the Bible. Here some folks are trying to prove only what they say is the right view and get into all arguments. Just my thoughts. 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 1 Sep 2016 9:28:03 AM Close

Quazi,

I think the administrators of this forum removed him and his presence from the site. It is not a 'trick of Rick'. None of his posts can be found in any of the earlier topics as well.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : webmasters   View Profile   Since : 1 Sep 2016 10:06:41 AM Close

rick himself has deleted his posts. Beware! he may come back with a new username. He used to do this before.

Webmasters
KeralaBrethren.net


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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 1 Sep 2016 12:43:42 PM Close

Webmasters replied. WOW! Rick is so famous that they replied...

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 23 Sep 2016 4:07:07 AM Close

Dear GPK

Why do you ask the Brethren in Christ to pray for the peace of Jerusalem?

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 26 Sep 2016 7:13:19 AM Close

Dear guide,

If you are expecting an answer based out of the NT. Or if you are looking for it from a believer's faith in Christ  - chances are you will not get a vaild answer but certain vague assumption.

Do you really want such an answer?

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 26 Sep 2016 8:02:52 AM Close

It seems ‘guide’ is looking for a clear cut answer specifically from Mr. GPK as the initiator of the thread. We can take the word ‘Brethren’ in his question to be ‘Christians’. Guide has already made posting on 22 Dec 2012 9:11:43 PM with questions to GPK which received no response so far.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 27 Sep 2016 12:15:57 AM Close

Then I think he will have to wait till people become 'brethren' for a valid answer :-)

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Reply by : paulthomas1   View Profile   Since : 5 Oct 2016 1:53:23 PM Close

i think GPK = Rick.. both are missing now!

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 7 Oct 2016 12:52:17 AM Close

Hello Paul and everyone,

The statement was pray for Jerusalem.

It really does not matter if GPK and Rick are the same people. Though they have different styles of writing.

So far I have not seen a single valid reason on why we, believers in the NT context need to pray for Jerusalem specifically. Unless some one goes outside the NT context and tries to prove it using OT and history. But it still does not stand. Cause we are not OT and we are not Israelites. People like Rick have tried.

People who argue that we should pray for Jerusalem are the people who call that place holy. God only knows why they call the land with the most turmoil, holy in today's context. They are also the ones who subtly propagate the need for believers to visit it like some sort of pilgrimage. Stress word is 'subtly' which also means compromise on your grace and freedom in Christ by atleast once going here.

At these trouble times, we need to hold onto the grace of God more.

Regards,

Joe

 

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