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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Jesus Christ became POOR to make us RICH.

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# 02431 :  Jesus Christ became POOR to make us RICH.

 

The other day I was playing an on-line ‘checkers’ game. There [on-line] we get a live opponent from somewhere in the world. I would not know who that person is or which part of the world he or she is from. The computer selects a player randomly. As I started playing against this particular opponent, he [she] made a mistake and I capitalized on it and made a triple jump. Such a play at the initial stage would put one player in command because he would at least get ahead by two pieces. The outcome is almost predictable from then on, because it would be hard to come back from such disadvantageous position.  
As soon as the opponent realized the mistake, he offered a ‘draw’ to me; which usually is reserved for towards the end of the game when the pieces are equal and both players realize that neither one has a clear advantage over the other. Once accepting the offer that game is considered a ‘draw.’ In this case, I had a clear advantage and it is just a matter of some more moves and all pieces of my opponent will be captured, leading me to a clear victory. As an initial reflective move of my brain, I rejected the draw offer. I was thinking; yeah, right; he has no escape and how dare is he offering a draw?
We kept on playing and I kept on capturing his pieces and getting further ahead. By now I expanded to a four piece advantage. I realized that this opponent is at my mercy; he has no escape. A thought flashed through my mind connecting this situation to my situation before receiving God’s mercy. I was given total and unconditional pardon for my sins by God. I received mercy from God when I was just like my opponent, who has no way of escape.
I felt I should initiate the draw offer to my opponent and let him also receive ‘mercy;’ in this case just a silly game; nonetheless a reflection of God’s mercy that I had received. I sent him a draw offer. To my surprise, he rejected that offer. I felt that either he is upset that I did not accept it when he initiated the draw offer or he is now feeling that he does not want some stranger’s mercy. I made another move and his situation is getting dangerously close to a total collapse. I sent out one more offer. He rejected it. I made one more move and now there is only one more possible move for my opponent before he gets defeated. As a final attempt I sent out another ‘draw’ offer. He made his final move after rejecting my draw offer. He got defeated very convincingly.
This incident gave me a clearer picture of human reaction to God’ mercy! It could be the human pride that prevented my opponent from accepting my merciful gesture. Or he may have felt he does not deserve the ‘draw’ option. He may have felt perhaps he could somehow win on his own. Who would want to admit that he or she cannot do something to seize victory over defeat by doing something incredible?   
What God provided for mankind for salvation was not a ‘draw’ offer as I did. When Jesus Christ went to the cross He carried all the punishment for my sins. When He was killed on the cross, He died in place of me. Death and eternal separation from God is what I deserved, but Jesus Christ died in my place. It was as though I could offer to my opponent a chance to play with my winning pieces and I will play with his loosing pieces and accept defeat on his behalf. Even then my story, and the merciful gesture, fall way short of what Jesus Christ did by million times!
In 2 Cor. 8:9 we read; “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.” Compared to what Jesus Christ had offered here, no human can match anything remotely close to it.  
Before God, all men are like my opponent. Men & women have no escape because God declared it very emphatically in Romans 3: 10-18 & 23 that there is nothing good in them that would deserve them to be in heaven. Yet people struggle and resist God’s offer for pardon and invitation to spend eternity with Him on God’s term. They say they can do it on their own. Many would say that we need Jesus Christ as an aid, but we need to attain salvation by doing certain things. Gal. 3:21 says that Jesus Christ is our righteousness. Based on that and several other passages, I am completely righteous before God at the moment I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. I will never be less righteous before God or more righteous. But I can be an obedient or disobedient Christian adding more blessings to my life here on earth and for the life to come; or wreck my Christian life and be a miserable person adding nothing to my rewards.
My opponent in the checkers game was given many chances to bring the game to a draw. But he rejected those repeatedly, resulting in losing the game. Many people hear the gospel and keep rejecting it because they are either too proud to admit their sinfulness and helplessness or they think they need to ‘work’ for their salvation. A full unconditional pardon for sins is something humans have a hard time accepting as the truth. But God grants mercy when we don’t deserve it. This is why we call the first four books of the NT as ‘gospels.’ Gospel is the ‘good news’ given to mankind from a loving God.  
For God so loved the world that He gave His only [unique] begotten son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16. Yes! The Bible says – they ‘have’ everlasting life – not that they would get it in the future. It is certainly given to those who believe in Jesus Christ for their forgiveness of sins. God made us rich by paying a hefty ransom; the very life of Jesus Christ! He became POOR while making us RICH.
Tom Johns                                                                                                                                       
P.S. God does not make us rich once and then poor; then again rich; then again poor; then hopefully at the end rich again. Once I am made rich I remain rich; once I am made righteous, I remain righteous, because Jesus Christ is the One who made me rich and righteous. All I needed to do was accept His loving offer. This is the good news or the gospel!  
Post by : tomj  View Profile    since : 24 Jan 2013


Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 18 Apr 2017 9:56:23 AM Close

KristianJude,

I don't think Tom Johns is active on this portal anymore. I presume in one of his earlier posts, he had given his email id. You may contact him on that.

I just saw these posts today and felt I need to ask three basic questions. Maybe the answers to these questions might broaden our perspective? I do not know.

1. What does it mean by "Salvation for all mankind" ( Titus 2:11)

2. If you have an understandable reasoning to the earlier question, how does free will work in the following context as per the following verse in Mathew 22:14

3. If you are clear on that as well. What is the need of predestination as per? Proverbs 6:14, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 11:12, 1 Corinthians 2:7 and Revelation 13:8

I know you wanted to Tom Johns to answer this. I have not answered any of these questions, just posed a conundrum to you to meditate. 

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 23 Apr 2017 8:15:26 AM Close

Dear Jude,

Thank you for your response. Let me quote you first:

" If God has chosen a particular number of persons for salvation, it implies that God will not provide any terms for others to get saved. And those who are selected fulfill the term (believing in God) not with their own ability, God only make them believing (inherently they are forced to abide by the term). This all means that like God’s offer His term, according to TULIP is also bogus." 

Correct me if I am wrong. If you did write this.  Then my questions are relevant and ideally should be of interest ( not a compulsion though ). It would help you answer your questions that you posted to Tom Johns. Who again as I said, I think, is not active here anymore and I think you can email him separately.  He ended his post and rightly put it as such: "God does not make us rich once and then poor; then again rich; then again poor; then hopefully at the end rich again. Once I am made rich I remain rich; once I am made righteous, I remain righteous, because Jesus Christ is the One who made me rich and righteous. All I needed to do was accept His loving offer. This is the good news or the gospel!"

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 25 Apr 2017 1:18:43 PM Close

Hello Jude,

I am not clear on the question you have posed.

  1. Are you asking me if I have a view/opinion on God's offer and his term
  2. Or, are you asking if I get to decide on what God's offer and his term is?

Please clarify which one is it.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 26 Apr 2017 8:18:30 PM Close

Hello everyone, 

After a period of time I checked this site and I see some activities on the thread I initiated. Not surprised to see Kristinjude still spreading false gospel. Perhaps I will be back to write some more. 

Tom Johns

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 27 Apr 2017 5:49:28 AM Close

Hello Jude,

My first note was a set of three questions to answer your questions. I am not aware of TULIP or any other floral theological arrangements that people adhere to. I think here, the scripture suffices. I do look at interpretations here and there. But that is more on the lines of I The 5:21. I am not obliged to them.  

The scripture deals in detail on the topic of confession. So are you trying to imply, if you don't confess, you will still be saved? I do not understand. Neither do I understand what do you mean by Tom Johns and his post diluting it. 

Tom Johns, hello and welcome back.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 27 Apr 2017 6:37:55 AM Close

Dear Jude,

I clearly stated I do not understand what you are trying to say.  What do mean by baseless? When you write a sentence like this: The offer is salvation and the term to receive it is one's professing his faith in God. Take your first note for discussion. I have made it clear that TULIP doctrinal system, Mr.Tom is following dilutes God's offer and term to be meaningless.

a. I don't read anywhere Tom Johns diluting anything.

b.I don't understand what do you mean by TULIP and you have written (According to TULIP's Total Depravity, man in himself has no ability to accept God's offer for salvation and those who accept it do so not in their own willingness, but with that of God imputed in them (forcefully?). Hence, if TULIP is the truth, it implies that God's offer is neither universal nor specific, but only a show.)

Clearly, if you read what you have written, you will understand why anyone will have a confusion. And what do you mean by TULIP is the truth? And what assumption is that you are basing or concluding it on? Where does any theology come in the context of the word of God? Is not The word of God the truth?

I shall end here and not take part in this.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 27 Apr 2017 7:20:20 PM Close

Kristenjude, 

could you summarize your questions once again and post it? So, I'd know what areas are you referring to. Thanks

Tom Johns

Joe. Thank you for the special welcome!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2017 3:45:23 PM Close

KJ, you wrote – “According to TULIP's Total Depravity, man in himself has no ability to accept God's offer for salvation and those who accept it  do so not in their own willingness, but with that of God imputed in them (forcefully?). Hence, if TULIP is the truth, it implies that God's offer is neither universal nor specific, but only a show. 

Mr. Tom's clarification required.”

Then you continued –

This is your statement:  "people struggle and resist God’s offer for pardon and invitation to spend eternity with Him on God’s term"

Five point doctrinal teaching TULIP which you adhere to says that man has no ability in himself to accept God's offer and to abide His term. This means his struggling and resistance is not his own wilful act. And TULIP says that only a selected number of people  were made to abide by God's term and receive His offer. If my understanding of TULIP is correct, you may please reconcile  your statement with what I have written.

Contd. to the next posting

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2017 3:46:38 PM Close

KJ, All I can point out to you is what the scripture tells us. Your inferences [your added interpretations of what those verses mean] are your own and I cannot give any satisfactory answers. I would have to steer you back to the verses. So, here is yet another teaching on the sovereignty of God. I am using R C Sproul’s teaching on it – mainly from his book ‘Chosen by God,’ and given in the web-site ‘Got questions.org.’ Instead of me rewriting what is scriptural I am quoting it here. I may quote this series in future also to save time. I have read most of his books along with the proponents of Armenian teachings which you are aligning to. R C Sproul/ John MacArthur and several other scholars willingly submit to what the scripture teaches. But several others question it with their ‘logic.’ Human ‘logic’ is faulty and you obviously subscribe to it. I am not trying to convince you since I know that until a person is willing to adhere to what the scripture tells as ‘the’ truth and willing to forego human ‘faulty logic.’ I am posting this for those who are willing to study this subject with a willing heart to understand the truth. 

Continued to the next posting

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2017 3:47:46 PM Close

Question: "What does it mean that God draws us to salvation?"

Answer: 
The clearest verse on God’s drawing to salvation is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” The Greek word translated “draw” is helkuo, which means “to drag” (literally or figuratively). Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God does the drawing to salvation; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself is all on His part. 

Helkuo is used in John 21:6 to refer to a heavy net full of fish being dragged to the shore. In John 18:10 we see Peter drawing his sword, and in Acts 16:19 helkuo is used to describe Paul and Silas being dragged into the marketplace before the rulers. Clearly, the net had no part in its being drawn to the shore, Peter’s sword had no part in being drawn, and Paul and Silas did not drag themselves to the marketplace. The same can be said of God’s drawing of some to salvation. Some come willingly, and some are dragged unwillingly, but all eventually come, although we have no part in the drawing.

Why does God need to draw us to salvation? Simply put, if He didn’t, we would never come. Jesus explains that no man can come unless the Father draws him (John 6:65). The natural man has no ability to come to God, nor does he even have the desire to come. Because his heart is hard and his mind is darkened, the unregenerate person doesn’t desire God and is actually an enemy of God (Romans 5:10). When Jesus says that no man can come without God’s drawing him, He is making a statement about the total depravity of the sinner and the universality of that condition. So darkened is the unsaved person’s heart that he doesn’t even realize it: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Therefore, it is only by the merciful and gracious drawing of God that we are saved. In the conversion of the sinner, God enlightens the mind (Ephesians 1:18), inclines the will toward Himself, and influences the soul, without which influence the soul remains darkened and rebellious against God. All of this is involved in the drawing process.

There is a sense in which God draws all men. This is known as the “general call” and is distinguished from the “effectual call” of God’s elect. Passages such as Psalm 19:1-4 and Romans 1:20 attest to the fact that God’s eternal power and divine nature are “clearly seen” and “understood” from what has been made, “so that people are without excuse.” But men still do deny God, and those who acknowledge His existence still do not come to a saving knowledge of Him outside of His drawing them. Only those who have been drawn through special revelation—by the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God—will come to Christ. 

There are tangible ways in which those who are being drawn to salvation experience that drawing. First, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sinful state and our need for a Savior (John 16:8). Second, He awakens in us a previously unknown interest in spiritual things and creates a desire for them that was never there before. Suddenly our ears are open, our hearts are inclined toward Him, and His Word begins to hold a new and exciting fascination for us. Our spirits begin to discern spiritual truth that never made sense to us before: “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned” (1 Corinthians 2:14). Finally, we begin to have new desires. He places within us a new heart that inclines toward Him, a heart that desires to know Him, obey Him, and walk in the “newness of life” (Romans 6:4) that He has promised.

Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul

Tom Johns

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2017 8:04:28 PM Close

KJ, This shouldn't be that hard to understand. God is inviting people to believe on His Son for the forgiveness of their sins. Instead of that people try to get to heaven based on their effort. If you are doing that, you are part of that struggling group. 

Tom Johns 

 

 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2017 8:20:09 PM Close

KJ, I am sure I answered all these questions from you at some point in time. I took a decision earlier not to entertain your questions on a public forum [becuase it is simply useless - since you go in circles like a squirrel in the cage.] 

So, I am not going to keep wasting my energy into unprofitable discussions. BTW you have no respect for the sovereign God. Your words are blasphemous. 

Tom Johns

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2017 2:17:08 AM Close

Dear brothers & sisters in Christ, 

About 10 days ago I received the following email - 

Dear Brother Tom,

I hope this is the correct email address!

I am indeed privileged to have stumbled upon keralabrethren.net site and to have read through many of the gems that it has to offer.

I am deeply thankful to the Lord Almighty for your contributions, together with of a handful of brothers, blessed with a wonderful gift of biblical exposition and research.

I am indebted to you for your writings on the subject of predestination which has truly transformed my heart to new depths of understanding His grace. It was a moment that I cannot forget, when things made such perfect sense. What a wonderful Saviour!

Your last post on http://keralabrethren.net/boardkb/view.asp?id=2431&forum=General rather left me concerned when you mentioned that you did not want to answer to the question of 'God’s invitation “without a real purpose”'. 

However blasphemous the question may seem to be, I would wish to hear how a person would counter this and save an unbelieving heart.

I am also studying on the topic of “hardening” (e.g. Pharaoh’s heart) and would love to know if you have any materials that you would rely on such a study.

Thank you again for your contributions and I hope to see more of you. 

Praise the Lord!

Regards,

Name - [not mentioning here] 

[Through subsequent emails, I found out that this brother is now living in Singapore.]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Few of my comments -

I was humbled to know that there are at least few that are getting benefited through these writings and it encouraged me recommit to writing more on this forum. This email, in turn should encourage the brothers who are hosting this site; regularly maintaining it; spending money and run this. May God bless you greatly.  

I will not engage in direct dialogue with KJ since he has no willingness to learn, rather just teach what he had heard. I hope and pray that he would buckle down and start learning how to study the scriptures. But I realized that there could be some who might get benefited and God’s name be glorified through these humble efforts. I will repost an article that I have posted many years [at least twice in the past] ago on KB Net. A proper understanding of that article might help us resolve some of the nagging questions in our mind. This is not meant to be an answer to all the questions we can think of, but would encourage us to trust in God’s eternal plans, that are not revealed to human mind.  

Tom Johns

[Please see the article in the next frame] 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2017 2:18:58 AM Close

This is the article I mentioned in the frame above ----

Paradoxes

One thing I have realized in thinking about questions of this sort is that our knowledge is limited—we do not know all relevant facts; our capacity to understand is limited—after all, only God(’s Spirit) knows the ways of God (1Cor 2:10-11). What we do have, however, is Scripture, which reveals to us the mind of God. But even here, there is a little catch. Scripture is not intended to reveal to us exhaustively all that we would like to know from the point of view of intellectual curiosity. Scripture addresses issues from the point of view of living. It tells us (only) what we need to know to live in a manner that is right. We do not have the know-how to answer questions like, “How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?” which kind of questions have been discussed by theologians in the course of history. There are certain Calvinistic discussions about divine decrees, for instance, which I would not wish to engage in, simply because I think it goes beyond what has been revealed for us to know.

 

A second fact of importance is the existence of conceptual paradoxes in the area of theology. A paradox, simply put, is something that incorporates unresolved opposites. Two things are stated or found to be true, although these two seem to contradict each other, and therefore cannot be true. It is my observation that Scripture contains paradoxes. These are paradoxes because of what I stated in the previous paragraph, namely, we do not know enough to see, or we lack the intellectual capacity to recognize that these are not in fact contradictory. To me this means living with a certain degree of tension. The greatest paradox of all shows up in the area of human responsibility and divine sovereignty, and this issue is not avoided in the Bible although the answer is simply an appeal to the fact that God is God (and he does not have to answer to us—Romans 9:18-24 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-- prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?). Note that the answer that Paul gives us is stated as a “what if.” It stops short of being a full assertion.

 

When we are unwilling to live with the tension of holding to both of the apparent opposites, we tend to move to extremes. The thing that keeps my mind sober on questions of this sort is simply reading Scripture. The big controversy in evangelical scholarship in the US in the last 10 years has been something called ‘open theism’. This is an audacious (in my mind, foolhardy) leap to places where the classical Arminians would not have dared to go, and suggests that God does not in fact know everything that is going to happen. (If He did, there would be no true free will. But there has to be free will, from their point of view. So, God must not know what we are going to choose. How do you like that?)

I find in Scripture that there is a strong statement of God’s sovereignty. God is sovereign over the events of material world (Psa 104:4; 148:8; Job 28:26; Prov 8:29) as well as the world that involves the conduct of volitional beings such as man (see Rom 9:18-24, cited above; Dan 4:35; Prov 21:1; 2King 19:25[see 20-28]; Isa 25:1). At the same time, Scripture does not hesitate to ascribe responsibility and accountability to human conduct, even in contexts of affirming divine sovereignty (cf. the Isa 19 passage just cited; Acts 2:23; Matt 26:24 and parallels).

Furthermore, the outworking of the sovereign purposes of God encompasses intermediate causes/agents. So, for instance, all natural phenomena accomplish the purpose of God. At the same time, they are regulated by laws he has set in order when he created the material world with the properties he gave created things. So, for instance, Ahab dies from a chance arrow, but it is the execution of the sentence God pronounced (1Kings 21:21; ch. 22; 22:34). He in fact, allows wicked spirits to speak through false prophets to bring about His purpose of judging Ahab. In view of the infinite holiness and righteousness of God, we should understand that He remains free of guilt in allowing wicked moral agents to act according to their wickedness, even when such conduct accomplishes the larger purpose of God (Judas as the clearest instance). So there is culpability and some degree of freedom and volition to us in the world that God made and in the way He designed us. We are free enough to be guilty (meaning, we are aware of good and evil, and make choices when we feel we have options). It is not strange that in similar instances we do in actual experience go through making opposite kinds of choices at different times. Our own consciences tell us that that we are making choices according to our pleasure.

Tom J 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2017 6:05:06 AM Close

Hello Tom Johns,

You are right in your assessment. A friendly reminder though. Don't give up hope on wandering souls irrespective of how hardened they are.  Because while we were yet sinners. Christ came for us.

One thing I noticed in any discussion, is the element of ego and pride. And also the very fact that people do not really read the post in its completeness. Selective reading is a dangerous thing. It is the root cause of all miscommunication and misunderstanding. 

The other thing is forgetting the sovereignty and power of God.  Most of the people who use hard theological interpretations dilute the essence of the great redeemer.  You cannot bring God to manhood and play on that turf. When you accept the fact that He does so as He pleases. And the very fact that He loved/loves us. Everything falls in perspective.

Regards,

Joe 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2017 1:21:38 PM Close

KJ, You keep mentioning 'God's invitation without a real purpose.' Which part [sentence/ paragraph] of my posting are you referring to?

I will write about the revealed purpose [to the extend it is revealed - not to satisfy human curiosity] in some future postings. 

Tom Johns

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2017 2:09:25 PM Close

The following passage is addressing those questioning God's wisdom and purpose in what He is doing - Verse 23 is God's challenge to human wisdom. 

Romans 9:18-23. 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-- prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-"

Tom Johns

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2017 8:03:50 PM Close

KJ,

You stated – “Does this mean that God forwards the invitation without a real purpose? Is it God's Foul Play?” May 2nd posting.

This is purely your faulty logic and you are challenging God, and not me. Because, in Romans 9 God had asked you and warned you with the following – But you raise your fist against God and accuse Him to do ‘foul play.’ Even in the sense you wrote challenging me it was blasphemous as I mentioned earlier.

What is your answer to God for His questions?

Romans 9:18-24 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-- prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Note that the answer that Paul gives us is stated as a “what if.” It stops short of being a full assertion.

Tom Johns

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2017 1:19:59 PM Close

Those who like to study this subject may read these verses and understand the depth of God's gaciousness to His chosen ones. [Others may fight against God's way of running His universe..] 

Predestination – Key Verses & some related verses to show the security of salvation. 

John 6:37-40; 44-45

“(37) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me. And the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. (38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. (40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day”

“(44) No one can come to Me unless that Father who sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of GOD, everyone who has heard and learned from THE FATHER, comes to Me.” (Jer 31:34)

Eph 1:4-6

(4)‘Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love (5) He predestined us to adoption, as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved’.

Eph 1:7-8

‘(7) In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace (8) which He lavished on us.’

Rom 8:29-30

‘For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.’

Rom 9:10-24

‘(10) And not only this, there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; (11) for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand not because of works but because of Him who calls, (12) it was said to her. “the older will serve the younger” {Gen 25:23} (13) Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated (less preferred). {Mal 1:2} (14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! (15) For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” {Exodus 33:19} (16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (17) For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “for this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” (18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. (19) You will now say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” (20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “why did you make me like this?” will it? (21) Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? (22) What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (23) And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.’

Rom 11: 5-7

“ (5) In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. (6) But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7) What than? What Israel is seeking it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;”

Rom 11:33-35

 ‘Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His Judgments and unfathomable His ways!’

‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? {Isa 40:13} (35) Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again?” {Job 41:11}

Col 3:12

“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;”

2 Thess. 2:13

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.”

Jer. 1:5

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” – God is bringing this purpose to pass now.

Gal 1:15-16

“(15) But when God who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased (16) to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles”

John 6:65

“And He was saying, For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Acts 13:48

“When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” 

May God help you find comfort in His sovereign grace that He poured out to His people! If you have accepted this message of the Gospel, God had a special purpose and eternal love to you as an INDIVIDUAL - When God loved the world, He loved me as ONE individual - Just as he chose Jermiah, Paul and others. Take this into the heart & rejoice in the wonderful way God loved YOU as an iindividual. It is sad to see people fight this glorious message! 

Tom Johns

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2017 11:01:45 AM Close

Tom Johns.

To accept predestination and unconditional security of our salvation, one must have the Spirit of God.  Otherwise, no matter what you expound, it would only fall on deaf ears. 

Just like the Pharoah. But we keep doing our part because the Lord wills it.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2017 12:56:08 PM Close

So, the gospel is, one has to believe in thier predestination and eternal security, if not believing in Christ is waste, there is no Spirit of God in him and hence  he is hell bound? Calvinism's nonsense. 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2017 1:37:07 PM Close

KJ, 

Where have I said that the gospel is believing in the predestination and eternal security? The thief on the cross next to Jesus Christ did not have any clue of any of these. There are many wonderful Christians of the past and present couldn’t /cannot understand this doctrine.

I am writing on this subject either because there are genuine questions from some on this site, or persistent erroneous ‘teachings’ from you. No matter what I write, you [KJ] find it offensive to your understanding and you keep resisting it.

But the basic problem I see in you [again with great deal of apologies] is that you refuse to learn how to study the Bible. It is like someone is trying to solve complicated math problems, but refuse to learn the multiplication tables.

For the sake of readers, please stop spreading nonsensical arguments here, and take few years off and get some study material and learn how to study the Bible. As I said before, you will thank me profusely [and for God’s glory] once you do. Please don’t be stubborn; obviously you are spending lot of time writing; why not spend it in the most profitable way? If you ever send me an email – tomj3162000@gmail.com I will send you enough material for your studies. My sincere apologies to you if I came across arrogant or brash; the Lord knows my heart.

Your well-wisher & possibly a brother in Christ –

Tom Johns

PS- I wrote possibly, because I am not sure about what you believe. If you still believe you are going to earn your salvation with your ‘faithful work,’ you will not enter into the kingdom of God. But if you believe solely on the finished work of Jesus Christ and believe that He died on behalf of you and He paid the penalty for YOUR sins, you are a brother in Christ for me.  Your writings do not testify that you have that belief. I hope I am wrong for your soul’s sake. 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2017 1:52:11 PM Close

TJ, it is my comment on Joe's rubbish.

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2017 2:31:50 PM Close

TJ,

When one hears the Gospel and accept Chirst as his Saviour Who died for his sins confessing that he is a sinner, then he is called a believer. Doctrinal issues enters only later on his way. If that believer at this later time start adhering to Conditinal Security doctrine, can you question his original faith in Christ?

Ok, I am stopping now onwards writting doctrinal issues on this forum just for the sake of webmasters' comfort who spent money to maintain this website. My conscience in clear in what I believe.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2017 4:22:19 PM Close

KJ, I don’t think it would be necessary to delete all your postings or other postings. Let the web-masters decide whether to do it and I leave it up to their discretion. We never know how these minister to a seeking heart.

Tom Johns 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2017 12:17:48 AM Close

KJ,

I really do not know what your point is most of your posts  OR you quoting that other people's posts are rubbish. In one instance you even threatened to respond in 'inadequate measures'. Truly, I say that is nothing that an NT believer follows and I really don't know what you are studying and what you refer to anymore.

In addition to this, please read my post clearly. Read it a couple of times. Don't go on by selecting words and then making your own assumption. Here it is again: To accept predestination and unconditional security of our salvation, one must have the Spirit of God.  Otherwise, no matter what you expound, it would only fall on deaf ears. 

Do not put words into other people's post and misguide. Even though you have done a real good job at that. If you do not believe in the following proponents of Unconditional Security of Salvation, Your Calling, Your Redemption and Your Understanding of Predestination through the spirit. Then you will have problems accepting what the community and its discussion are all about. If you feel you are right, so be it. If you wish to delete your posts, you should do it. Why ask someone else to put in an effort for your need of closure?

Rest assured, I do not know about the others. But I don't have any inhibitions having a discussion with you. Nor do I look down on you. If I did, I apologise - but my Maker who I serve knows my heart. But, you should stop teaching. Or share doctrinal opinion or understanding for some time. Study the word of God, not according to how you want to study, but by asking the spirit of God to teach you. 

Regards,

Joe

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