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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Hebrews 6:4-6

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# 08018 :  Hebrews 6:4-6

Greetings,

Since my last post in the forum was deleted on account of supposed plagiarism. (I have already mailed to the moderators the content which was posted <since I always save a draft on word> and my explanations for review). Ideally, if the people who put forth the contention had read the first line: The original article link can be accessed by clicking here>. ('Here' was linked to the website and can be checked again), they would have realised there was no infringement or plagiarism. Therefore, a valuable discussion due to some miscommunication and false accusations was closed. Anyway, hopefully the following verse taken from the scripture does not amount to any 'copyright infringement' or displeasure of people in the forum. Please note, and marked in bold: These topics mentioned are not to cause DIVISIONS as some people put it. It is for the understanding of the topic in detail and for mutual edification.

This is the KJV version of the verse: 

4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is the Darby version of the verse:

4. For it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 

5. and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, 

6. and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves as they do the Son of God, and making a show of him.

I am only going to use these versions for these verses since I feel context and meaning are largely the same in all the other translations. If it is different in the other versions, we can look at it during the course of the discussion in the forum.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Let me try and put two scenarios or examples (real life) into context and see if it is applicable there. I will state here again; I am not going to name those people because this is a discussion on the topic which is the verses and not on the indivudal's character.

Example 1

Years ago, there was a youngster who had come to the faith from a denominational background. He was pretty active in the gatherings and ministry. When it came time for him to settle down with a family. He pretty much went back to his denominational roots.

Question: Is this verse applicable here? If not, why? If yes also, why?

Example 2

Now there is a reputed and loved elder of one church in India who had contentions with the elders of his assembly. This led to some heated arguments and he left the congregation and stopped partaking in the Lord’s ministry or worship. The question you would ask, if he was wrong or where the other wrong? I would ideally on an unbiased outlook say, all of them might have been. But the fact is, he stopped everything altogether.

Question: Is his scenario apt for this verse?

These are just two examples. I could provide more, but that would be done in due course of the discussion.

If anybody feels enlightened or has an understanding, do share your views.

As always,

  1. You can participate in anonymity. Even if you don’t sign off also there is no problem. Nobody is a master here nor do you need submit your birth certificate. You can participate freely.
  2. If your participation means answers which pertains to read the scripture, that is like a teacher who tells a child who enters his/her class telling him/her to read the textbook, all the answers are there. This is not a class room, this is not a study, this is a forum - everyone can express their understanding. If they do not have one, it is advisable to refrain from sharing anything at all.
  3. If anyone is not clear about what is written, let them ask for it to be clarified. Let us not judge or make stark statement and let us not get into mindless arguments on who knows what and who is the master of all the languages or the word of God in all the languages.

These are all applicable to everyone which includes me as well. So let the Lord lead the discussion and may we grow.

Regards,

Joe

 

Post by : paizanjoe  View Profile    since : 23 Mar 2016


Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 23 Mar 2016 7:53:06 PM Close

Dear Joe,

Heb 6:4-6 is addressed to those who heard the gospel, joined the group of saved believers, saw and experienced the power of the Spirit of God and have become familar with the Word of God - but never experienced genuine conviction of sin, real repentance or true salvation. If such people fall away, a new repentance becomes a near impossibility.

I am assuming the youngster in Example 1 and the elder in Example 2 are genuinely saved individuals. If so, this passage does not apply to either of them.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 24 Mar 2016 8:01:40 AM Close

Dear Moses,

Thank you for your response. It is refreshing to see a response that does not include "What do you know/Understand from the scripture", poor judgemental statements or accusatory notes.

For your response to the topic, then my next question would be: How do you know if one is genuinely saved? If you look at these two scenarios, you will see by their actions, there would be a question towards if they were really saved. I think for an external person, it is very difficult to ascertain whether they are genuinely saved or not. It might be more on the basis of one's own self examination.

The youngster for example could be equated to the seeds that feel into rocks, but how do you then explain the elder's actions? 

The verses are quite clear - all the things mentioned are experienced by everyone who comes to the faith. This could be me, or you, or anyone. I dont think there is any distinction on the type of believer here. If it is present, please elaborate. 

Regards,

Joe

 

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 24 Mar 2016 2:37:32 PM Close

Dear Joe,

The passage we are dealing with (in Heb 6) is a personal warning from an inspired author to those who are dithering on the door of salvation, refusing to get in and be saved. In his concluding remarks, the author specifically stated, "See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks" - in other words, do not refuse the offer of salvation from God who in these last days has spoken by His Son. (Heb 12:25 and 1:2).

Now, no one other than God Himself can be a true judge to answer the question you raised, "How do you know if one is genuinely saved?" We are not asked to verify the salvation status of each other, are we?. We are asked to "examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith" (2 Cor 13:5)

Lets hope that those who are acting like they are saved, take a personal warning when these verses are read. May the Lord help convict and save those whom He has called!

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 24 Mar 2016 7:40:59 PM Close

Dear Moses and Rick,

Just to clarify, I stated in my first post itself that it is not to make a judgemental call on the examples but for the topic. I am happy to see that you both fully understand the context.

Rick, you are right to point it out that it was written for the Hebrews and also the scenarios that was posed. 

But my point here (to both of you) is that - as much as this verse is relevant to the Jews, it is also relevant to the Gentiles.

I would have completely agreed on this premise if it was not for Apostle Paul exhorting in on the context in 1 Thessalonians 5:19 - where one quenches the spirit. Quenching to me is, putting out. A person who puts out the spirit of God is in many senses also doing what it is mentioned in Hebrews in those verses.So there is a possibility of one to back slide and completely go out of grace. Of course in all this, the Lord knows who are is and we are not to judge.

Coming back to the examples - let me share one more which is more in lines with a personal context. Some of my relatives come from a denominational background. The fact is that when i have spoken to them, they accept everything that i say about Christ, Worship and the Truth. But they would not come to or refuse the realisation because of certain reputation that they have to maintain. And of course, our people havent made it easier. They accept, know, realise and agree to everything. But, they won't di it cause to them, there is no point.

Maybe that is what Christ mean't when he said 'The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak'.

Regards,

Joe.

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 24 Mar 2016 10:04:18 PM Close

Dear Joe,

We should be careful how we interpret 1 Thess 5:19, since it uses allegorical language and its possible to take allegories too literally. The Spirit of God and His actions within a believer is like a fire burning in our hearts. God's Spirit is NOT an actual fire that can quenched. Nor can anyone "put out" the Spirit of God who has come to take residence in a new believer. The Lord has promised that the Comforter will abide with us forever (John 14:16). He is not coming and going based on the day to day actions of the believer. He is a permanent and divine deposit in our heart and He stays with us (who are truly saved) forever and ever.

Quenching is metaphorically referencing the act of forcefully supressing the directions of the Spirit of God, thus grieving Him.. In other words, willfully disobedient to His will. When the 2 disciples who were returning to Emmaus looked back at their experience walking with the Lord Jesus, they compared His words and its effect on them as "our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us". Jesus did not actually light a fire in their heart, but His words were like fire that burned in them. What would have happened if they were disobedient to whatever He taught them on the road? If they resisted His words, we could say that they had quenched the fire that burned in them, when He talked to them. Of course they did not do that. They returned to Jerusalem that very night to carry on the work entrusted to them.

So, please use caution with how you interpret some words, by recognizing its usage, especially when used allegorically and within the context.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 25 Mar 2016 6:52:56 AM Close

Dear Moses,

I agree to what you say about not taking literal translations literally. And believe me, i have tried and not taken it out of context. 

But in context of allegorical it depends on the sentence and the translation. The formative words that drafted that 5 word sentence is pretty much the same in various translations. I even checked the greek intepretation - it was more graver  - it mean't extinguish, thwart and suppress

I am not saying or trying to put a point that a believer should fall from the grace of God. If it was quench, it is written as quench. If it grieve, it is written as grieve (Ephesians 4:30). I am not a bible teacher, but I can strongly testify (which the scripture also substantiates) that Paul was a well learned man with a great command over what he writes. After all, it is the spirit which guides him. If you notice, when he speaks of grieiving, the context is the seal of redemption. Whereas when he talks about quench, He just ends it as it is, a warning. I wouldtake it as a literal translation for a warning.

One example is when Paul stood at the last mile of his life, he speaks of Demas. I dont know if he mean't the same about Crescens and Titus, but you understand the gist. Mind you, these are people who have experience the power of God and have seen the ministry of apostles who have gone astray. Now, if they came back to the Lord, we do not know, because we dont have any indication in the scriptures. Lets pray and hope they did. But if they didn't, then it is a warning.

It is not quite difficult to understand. You cannot wait till the last minute to repent again if you have alreadyexperienced His grace. Like in the first example i had given, there are various kinds of people who might put this off till they are on their death beds to get in to heaven. As Indians put it - an adjustment. Which is i believe is not only wrong, but also puts that person's doings into God's consuming radar. 

Regards,

Joe.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 27 Mar 2016 5:53:39 AM Close

There are plenty of errors in the responses to 'paizanjoe's questions. I will addresses them later. 

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 28 Mar 2016 5:46:40 PM Close

Dear Rick,

The verse (1 Thess 5:19) is not allegorical, as you stated. But the reference to quenching is allegorical. The reason for this is simple - Spirit of God is not a fire that can be quenched. So the concept of quenching a fire is the allegory.

There is an excellent commentary on this verse by William MacDonald, which I found very useful to understand what this verse means. If you have his commentary look it up or else, let me know and I can type it out here in a later post.

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 30 Mar 2016 2:05:45 PM Close

http://deepsouthheartland.org/five-fatal-flaws-warning-passages-hebrews-3/

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 31 Mar 2016 1:32:27 PM Close

Greetings,

After going through the discussion in the thread, I give glory to God, that finally there is a discussion where people are not making judgemental statements or accusations. I sincerely believe that every conversation that is seasoned with salt will do wonders in our mutual edification and learning. 

To be honest, I had to search for the discussion today because of a weird bot that has taken hold of the forum. I hope the admin, if they read this, takes some action to correct this. The bot it seems captures and puts stories on the conversation. Due to this, valid discussions get lost in it's chain.

Coming back, I sincerely believe that we should not take our salvation and redemption for granted. One of the common notion that we as believers have is, nothing can come and challenge us since we are sealed for redemption. Most of the times, we overlook 'small sins' that are committed and think we can get away with it.

Just to put it in context. In one worship meeting, overheard a brother proudly speaking about an 'adjustment' he did with the traffic cops to relieve himself of fines he had incurred. These are real life situations, and there are many more where we as individuals who partake in the bread don't realise. People might misintepret this to be a different topic, but it is not. These are instances where believers who have tasted His glory living as heathen.

Quench or Grieve, we have to remember our God is a consuming fire.

Regards,

Joe

 

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2016 6:34:33 AM Close

And you mean dear 'paizanjoe' that a believer's security of salvation is conditional.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 7 Apr 2016 9:52:06 AM Close

No. I did not mean that at all. I meant, we should not take it for granted.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 8 Apr 2016 9:24:42 AM Close

‘paizanjoe’

On the 31 Mar 2016, you have written that we should not take our salvation and redemption for granted (emphasis mine). Again, you have written in the latest post that we should not take ‘it’ for granted. Salvation not being granted means no guarantee for salvation, if not, how do you explain ‘not for granted’?

It seems you do not accept the common notion of the believers that nothing can come and challenge us since they sealed for redemption. What is that something that can come and challenge the believers hoping to be sealed for redemption?

How will God, a consuming fire (as you have specified) deal with a believer who has tasted His glory but living as ‘heathen’? (Living as ‘heathen’ means, living as an unbeliever).

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 11 Apr 2016 12:54:22 PM Close

Kristian Jude,

Let me explain the term 'taken for granted', since I have spoken about it. 

'Take someone or something for granted'
To expect someone or something to be always available to serve in some way without thanks or recognition; to value someone or something too lightly.

That is what I mean't. I never mentioned or stated that salvation is conditional. It is absolute - Christ died and redeemed us once and for all as per the Lord's will. It is for everyone. It is clearly stated in the scriptures. 

The context or topic is 'Will you lose it? If you experienced it and deny/ignore/grieve it?'

For explanation purposes, let us look at the people of Israel. So long as they lived under the ordinances of God, God would let them flourish and bless them. When I mention god as a consuming fire, he is also a ever forgiving God as well. 

In our instance, we are called on for a higher accord. therefore if we look at it from all corners. We have a far deeper connection and responsbility to God. Since the priestly covenant has now been given to all man that confesses and accepts Christ as God and Saviour. 

Therefore, if we live  like pagans after tasting, experiencing and living his power and glory. Do you think he would not admonish/punish us in some form or other?

Okay, lets look at something else if that is difficult to digest or comprehend.

What did Christ say about stumbling blocks? Mathew 18:6. It was in reference to the Pharisees/Sadducees then. But today, if we think it is not applicable to 'learned' brethren, then we are fooling ourselves. Cause very action that we demonstrate in the church and outside is absorbed by all the people around us. 

If we keep professing, I am believer, Christ has saved me and live like heathen. What do you think will happen?

Either they are not saved or sealed in redemption. Or we are allowing them to flourish because we don't grasp the message and power of our salvation and how it is not be taken lightly or as i had already stated - for granted. 

Regards, Joe

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 19 Apr 2016 7:19:31 AM Close

Joe,

I don’t say as you have questioned me, that God would not admonish/punish one, if he lives like a pagan after tasting, experiencing God’s power and glory. I am only looking for a deeper clarity for your statement that God is a consuming fire. I agree that God would admonish if one believer goes off the track.  But if that person has gone out the Christian way of living and lives like a pagan, how God would react, specifically as a consuming fire?  Your explanation is solicited out from the scripture.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 20 Apr 2016 11:52:24 AM Close

Kristian,

Do you want to try and find out? :-).

Consuming fire is quite self explanatory - Once you have received grace. Live like your whole life depends on it. Otherwise, God knows how to deal with it.

We do not know who is His. But He does. You don't want the demonstration of His power of wrath on anyone - believer or non believer alike. There are clear examples in the word of God - I Cor 11:30. Even unto death. These are believers, who were saved. If they could be judged the eternal God, we are no where in any kind of 'safe' zone since the mercy and grace of God is the same to all that believe.

Regards,

Joe.

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 21 Apr 2016 7:54:17 AM Close

Joe.

A fire consumes an object to destroy it. You have warned that believers should not live like heathens as it will bring the wrath of God, the consuming fire. I agree that a born again believer can become a heathen by his character, lose his identity of being a Christian. This is a state of apostasy. An apostate is a willful sinner. Now he is in the adversaries’ camp. They would receive the fiery indignation from God, the consuming fire (Hebrew 10:27). It means just not that such a person will be merely a sleep (1 Cori 11:30), but will be destroyed eternally.  One should be diligent otherwise he will fail of the grace of God (Hebrew 12:15).

“ Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire” – Hebrew 12:28, 29

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Reply by : paulthomas1   View Profile   Since : 26 Apr 2016 1:52:02 PM Close

Joe,

I like how you comcluded the initial thread:

As always,

  1. You can participate in anonymity. Even if you don’t sign off also there is no problem. Nobody is a master here nor do you need submit your birth certificate. You can participate freely.
  2. If your participation means answers which pertains to read the scripture, that is like a teacher who tells a child who enters his/her class telling him/her to read the textbook, all the answers are there. This is not a class room, this is not a study, this is a forum - everyone can express their understanding. If they do not have one, it is advisable to refrain from sharing anything at all.
  3. If anyone is not clear about what is written, let them ask for it to be clarified. Let us not judge or make stark statement and let us not get into mindless arguments on who knows what and who is the master of all the languages or the word of God in all the languages.

Especially a reminder that this is not a class room rather a forum to express understanding.

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 5 May 2016 6:04:00 AM Close

We have been discussed it earlier, which can be seen in the following thread:

http://www.brethren.in/forum_new/forum_posts.asp?TID=6

http://www.brethren.in/forum_new/forum_posts.asp?TID=6&PN=2

http://www.brethren.in/forum_new/forum_posts.asp?TID=6&PN=3

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2016 8:19:56 AM Close

Thank you  Sambudhanoor.

I will go through the same and let you know of any doubts or observations.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 29 Aug 2016 6:55:19 AM Close

You are welcome

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 23 Sep 2016 11:49:07 PM Close

Hello,

Over the course of few weeks, I went through the earlier editions of the discussion as suggested. I concluded that they were random, most of them out of context in various intervals and pretty much vague in many senses.

I have also did a a few studies on this topic and have come to a conclusion on it. Stating the obvious is necessary: Our salvation is not lost, if we truly believe and God having plan for all of us.

Regards,

Joe

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