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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Repost - Brethren person marrying a Pentecost person

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# 08294 :  Repost - Brethren person marrying a Pentecost person
Hello, I would like to ask my question after telling about an actual scenario that happened to my friend who is a girl from brethren community.Both the families met and liked everything about each other.Problem started when the girls father approached the church evangelist for his opinion on this marriage with a Pentecost family. The evangelist said stuff which made the girls father back out of those alliance out of FEAR of losing respect of the brethren church they were attending. Question - Is this correct ? In my opinion, church is not a place where we go out of fear of elders but a place where we experience freedom of thoughts and worship.
Post by : britto_raphael  View Profile    since : 29 Apr 2017


Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2017 5:09:39 AM Close
# 08243 : can a pentacostal boy marry a brethren girl??? Variant of the same discussion
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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2017 5:38:44 AM Close

Hello Britto,

Before we make any assumption on whether the evangelist did something wrong. Let me ask you a few questions to make to clear on what we are making our comments on. 

  1. Do you know what the evangelist said to the father?
  2. How could one go to any other community (if) they know what the brethren faith stands for?

In this context, and as I understand from the overall KB community, there are a lot of societal pressures. Kerala Brethren generally starts their own assemblies everywhere in the world and sometimes called it the church, but are very reluctant to have people from different languages, creed or country come in. That is because they cannot impose their will on the members if they are from another community. That is what could have happened at the assembly, but we will wait for your answers.

One fears people rather than the Lord. One desires respect from people rather than the Lord.

I will wait for your answers to get back to you with my opinion on the matter.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2017 6:16:00 AM Close
Thank you for your quick response Joe. 1. I do not know the exact words which the evangelist said.However, There has been a marriage between a Pentecost boy and brethren girl in the church. The people facing the heat are the girls parents who are not given the respect that they used to get before this alliance happened. That is the fear of my friends parents. Blaming the evangelist was not my intention there :) 2. Both Brethren and Pentecost have the most important thing as their common ground like you mentioned in the other thread.We believe that God gave his only son as a sacrifice for our sins.He is our personal saviour and we get baptized as an act of acceptance of that fact.This to me is the most important thing.This is totally my opinion as I am not the person concerned and would not be able to answer as to why one could go to any other community for alliance. Can you also throw some light on why the reluctance to let others come in ? Rgds, Britto
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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2017 6:23:23 AM Close
"One fears people rather than the Lord. One desires respect from people rather than the Lord." This point what you said is the place where we are going wrong! I would rather pray to God and seek his guidance on all my issues.
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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2017 10:33:55 AM Close

Dear Britto,

Since there is not much clarity on what transpired. It is best left to the people who had the conversation to clarify or raise the topic in their church. We are no one to judge.

If you have read my last post I have given you the differences between both these communities. You should also note, I personally would have considered the alliance to be doubtful (I am keeping this as polite as possible, so that I do not hurt anyone’s feelings)

Doctrine is one of the most important aspects after confession in a believer’s life.  Confession is the stepping stone for a Christian. But it is what one is taught that directs and moulds one’s life. This is where it is not advisable to seek any form of alliance with Pentecostal or Charismatic people as much as possible.

Why? The key element is - what governs us now when we are saved? Answer: God Almighty through the Holy Spirit. Their teaching is that Holy Spirit comes and goes like a public transit bus.

The next thing is the gift of tongues. All of them I tell you who profess they have tongues have as much of it as a person with an epileptic seizure.

The word of God is clear on two aspects, which the brethren community ‘in doctrine’ have got it right:

  1. The Holy Spirit is here to stay and will stay with a believer till the Lord returns
  2. The gift of tongues is for the edification of the unbeliever. It is helpful if one can speak in their language. If you speak in tongues in the church and people do not understand, it makes no sense. (I Cor 14:23 and 27-28).

These are just two things, there are more. But I think you know why it is not advisable. You should be wary of such people or their community. You do not know and therefore you must be careful. Even if one confesses that Jesus is Lord. It is actually not a big thing. Don’t get me wrong, it is and let me explain. Mathew 7:21. When you read that verse, it will make sense. And just to strengthen that a bit more: Even the devil calls and believes Jesus Christ is the son of God.

Having said that, if it was the will of God for the alliance to happen. It would have. But since it has not. The Lord had a reason. No one would want to see their daughter do the ‘disco’ in the church. Because if KB had compulsion and power over the family, it would have been the same with the Pastor and his flock. They would have forced her to do things which were contrary to the scripture. You do not want to enter such a household in the first place no matter how ‘good and lowly’ they are.

Regards,

Joe

 

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2017 3:47:19 PM Close

HI Joe,

I am replying here but not for the sake of arguement. The Bible has been translated to many languages multiple times over the period of so many years and so its interpretation has changed. Just a change in single word can cause a change in the meaning of the entire verse. So what i would do is if i read the word I would pray to God to make me understand what it means rather than leaning on my own understanding and accepting the literal meaning of it. You quoted a verse - I Cor 14:23 and 27-28. This is a classic example of incomplete information leading to misinterpretation of the verse. If I were to read ONLY the verses that you have mentioned here, I would tend to think that Pentecostal people or infact any denomination person who profess they have tongues have as much of it as a person with an epileptic seizure and it is totally non sense. But if you read the entire chapter (pls read the entire chapter , I have quoted portions which seemed important to me for this discussion below),

 - verse  2 says - For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

- verse 5 says -  Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy.

What I would like to say is for a brethren or for a pentecost, God is one. Why not read the word of God - Bible , embrace it thoroughly and instead of seeking people for interpretation of the verse, seek God. He will be gracious enough to lead us through the Holy Spirit and make us understand the true meaning of the verse.

Also, one more thing that I would like to add is FOLLOW THE BIBLE not the preachers or the followers, cos there are chances the latter might change or be fake altogether (Mathew 24 :11,12-  Many false religious teachers will come. They will fool many people and will turn them to the wrong way. 12 Because of people breaking the laws and sin being everywhere, the love in the hearts of many people will become cold.)

But the Word of God is going to remain constant throughout (Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.")

The world we are in is not at all an ideal world and we need the abundant grace of God to be able to survive this. One should keep praying and seek God for each and every step of his/her life.

Rgds,

Britto

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2017 3:57:32 PM Close

Also, I read your previous post on the thread # 08248 :  Could a non believer marry a believer? I am quoting what you said there below -

"So, to conclude, though it is advisable that one marries within the Christian community. One does not really know who the Lord has planned for them when they truly are in the faith. It’s all about submission. Who knows, your marriage to so called believer or a non-believer is the Lord’s calling for you to show them the true light of salvation."

But for the above thread you have quoted the below -

"You should be wary of such people or their community. You do not know and therefore you must be careful. Even if one confesses that Jesus is Lord. It is actually not a big thing."

I see a contradiction in the things you said. If its about submission in case of non believers it should be about submission in case of a Pentecostal alliance as well rather than bieng wary and careful !

Rgds,

Britto

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 5:28:52 AM Close

HI Joe,

"The key element is - what governs us now when we are saved? Answer: God Almighty through the Holy Spirit."

I totally agree to the above point but wanted to clarify a few things about it. Please correct me if you think I am going wrong.

Do all the saved people get Holy Spirit (by default) ?

Answer is NO. The Holy Spirit is for all the people who have a genuine relationship with God and for the people who long for it and ask God for it. Luke 11:13 says-  "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

So one should ask for Holy Spirit and recieve it. It will not be granted to anyone by default.

After one recieves the Holy Spirit, he will dwell in you. 1 Corinthians 3:16 says - "Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?" Since the spirit dwells in us it is our responsibility to take care of our bodies and remain obedient to God.

If a saved person/ believer (who has recieved the Holy Spirit in him) is aware he is sinning and does not want to repent, the Holy Spirit will not remain with him.If one is living in willful sin, he/she is allowing the devil to use himself/herself and serving the devil. God would not let his Holy Spirit to remain in such people even if they are saved/believers because you cannot serve the God and the devil at the sametime.

Can a person who recieved the Holy Spirit lose it ?

YES. King David writes in Psalms 51-11 "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me."

The ascription to Psalm 51 reads,

"For the director of music. A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba."

Context - David pleading to God after commiting adultery with Uriah's wife Bathsheba, plotting and killing Uriah the Hittite to conceal his wrong doing (2 Samuel 11:1-27). God was not pleased by what David did (2 Samuel 11:27) and revealed it to him through a prophet - Nathan (2 Samuel 12). David realised his mistake and also realised that there is a real danger of the Holy Spirit departing from him. However David confessed (2 Sam 12:13) and God forgave him. So from this we understand that there is a possibility of the Holy Spirit departing from a person who has already recieved it if he/she is not living a worthy life.

Rgds,

Britto

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 6:16:35 AM Close

Dear Britto,

It is fine. But before you make a judgmental call on what I have written. You should have noted or read clearly/carefully why I have written.

As per your statement: The Bible has been translated to many languages multiple times over the period of so many years and so its interpretation has changed. Just a change in single word can cause a change in the meaning of the entire verse.

This is not correct. The Word of God remains constant and the meaning the same in most translations which are inspired by God onto the interpreters. To say they have changed or assume they have changed the meaning is to undermine the years of toil and sweat they put into bringing the word of God to us in a manner that is easy for us to understand.

We from the KB commonly use the KJV NKJV and NIV. I don’t see anything substantially wrong with the other translations. But this is what we refer to most of the times. To assume that one word would change the entire meaning is to say the word of God is being falsified. But that is not the case. For e.g. ‘Thou shall not kill and Do not kill’ holds the same meaning everywhere.

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 Now the aspect of marriage and different denomination. You have asked me to read the entire chapter and stated I have misinterpreted it by taking only a few verses. A very strong allegation. This either shows you have not understood the chapter or you are influenced by some forces which compel you to be misinformed. Let me summarise what the chapter talks about using different portions:

  1. Apostle Paul in the spirit wants people to prophesy. It brings more glory and edification to the church (chapter 14: v1,3)
  2. If you speak in tongues there needs to be an interpreter so that the church and its members can be edified. It needs to make sense so that there is a union in understanding on what is being muttered.  (v5, v9, v11, v13-16)
  3. Tongues are specifically given as a sign for the unbeliever, and not the believer. (v22)
  4. Speaking in tongues does not bring any edification to the church if it cannot be understood (v23)
  5. We are asked to look for the gift of prophecy rather than the gift of tongues (v3, 5, 12,18)

I hope this portion and its interpretation will help you understand on why I state they are talking gibberish and no recognisable language. The Holy Spirit is not a transit bus that comes, drops its essence, people get raised and then leaves. It is here to stay. Tongues and prophecy are gifts of His grace.  

There was nothing uncontradictory in what I wrote about the association with unbelievers. The first aspect is that you cannot be unequally yoked with them. But it does not mean you cannot mingle with them.  (I will indulge in this topic sometime in the future). But you have been asked and specifically warned to stay away from those who call themselves believers.   

I Corinthians 5:11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Charismatic and Pentecostal people have their good people. But they are misled, people. Your job is to pray for them. But to disassociate yourself from anything of them. It is difficult for anyone to bring anyone to the Lord unless God moves them. But as experience goes, it is easier for unbelievers to come to His grace quicker than those who profess they are believers.

And the last part was something you missed out on. I stated, if it was the Lord’s will – the alliance or union would have happened. I still hold onto the fact that we may have our reasoning. And this reasoning may come from God. But God has His plans for everyone. And we can only praise and hope for it to happen because he is our benefactor to all that we are.

Romans 11:33 - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 6:17:57 AM Close

Hello Britto,

I will help you with your third post understanding in a little while.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 7:59:02 AM Close

Dear Britto,

What you have written about departing of the Holy Spirit from a person is absolutely  scriptural. The point is, whether this person in whom there is no more existence  of the Spirit will be eternally saved is the question we have to ask for ourselves.

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 8:44:22 AM Close

HI Joe,

I am sorry if my words were a little too strong and it felt like an accusation.The 5 verses or points about tongues and prophecy that you have mentioned are spot on.

I totally agree to you on all those points. But nowhere does it say that speaking in tongues is wrong or should be discouraged. Scripture gives more weightage to prophecy but no where does it condemn speaking in tongues.You might have understood by now that I am more of a person who would accept the Biblical concepts for what the Bible says and the spirit explains rather than what any denomination/community says. I am not a fan/follower of any denomination as such!

The verse that you have mentioned - I Corinthians 5:11: But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

These are all strong words which you are directly assosiating to Charismatic and Pentecostal community if I am not mistaken. I would not blame a whole community on because of the bad deeds of some people/leaders. Wrong examples are there in each and every denomination and thats is why I keep saying - its about the Bible and not its preachers or the followers. 

You summed this all up very well and I agree with you on this- "if it was the Lord’s will – the alliance or union would have happened. And we can only praise and hope for it to happen because he is our benefactor to all that we are."  For us to understand Lord's will and accept it- This requires submission without fear or bieng wary of any external factors . It should be between the person/family concerned and God.

@kristianjude - Thnx for joining in the discussion. The person without the existence of spirit is in danger unless he realises this repents and comes back to God. The things that I have written are scriptural because I wanted to add on a few things to what Joe had mentioned w.r.t Holy Spirit. He has willingly agreed to discuss this further. We will wait for his post and discuss scripture so that it benefits all of us :)

Rgds,

Britto

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 9:18:12 AM Close

Before I start explaining about the Holy Spirit. Let us look at these words of the Lord:

John 14:16: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Please note the key word here is ‘forever’.

It is good you asked this question: Do all the saved people get Holy Spirit (by default)?

The answer here is not NO or YES.

He/she who is born of the spirit and water enters the kingdom of God. The Holy Spirit in you is the access code for you the enter the kingdom of God. In this also, only the Lord knows who is truly his (2 Timothy 2:19). And those who believe in the Lord and are saved, according to His plan are made temples of the Living God (I Cor 6:19-20).

So, do you know if you are saved or not?? Of course, you do.  When you confess (Romans 10:9-10) and truly believe. You are saved. Therefore, you are asked at all accounts to make your election sure and establish yourself in the spirit & faith that is in you (2 Peter 2:10)

The question of you at any point losing your salvation then does not arise. Because once you are received it, it is eternal. And God has a plan and will bring you back even if you fall off from the grace that is given (Heb 12:5-11). How He chastises and brings you back depends on the degree of how far you have gone.  You don’t want to test Him on that.

Look at the mercy of God. Even when you live a life of ignorance (I am not advocating that you do). At least your soul is saved (1 Cor 3:15). But in a weak position, because of the spirit which is in you. Nobody should be last. The bar is set to reach the level of Christ.

Do not confuse the workings of the OT with the NT. You are now a partaker of the new covenant in the Christ (Heb 9:15). Everything that is old has been completed, fulfilled and finished (Heb 8:13). You are now put in a better place with a better promise (Heb 8:6). Therefore, live your life as one not condemned but under the mercy and grace of God (Rom 8:1)

On the topic of it being strong words against the denomination. It is not. You should go for one of their meetings and see the heresies. I never said tongues should be discouraged. I said what they call ‘tongues’ is not tongues. Tongues are understandable which I established in my earlier post. To accept them as tongues is basically making God the monsieur of confusion and recklessness.

I don’t know about you or anyone else. My God is a God of peace and edification. Bad leaders are established in any community because you let it by hiding your spirit and conscience. It is much graver in those denominations because they do not realise the severity of their fallacies (2 Tim 1-9) and we have been forewarned. The spirit works in mysterious ways. And if you truly are a believer, it is there with you forever. It is up to you to listen to it. And it will keep talking to you and for you till the very end. (Rom 8:26)

Regards,

Joe

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 9:23:43 AM Close

Now I know in the earlier post what Tom John's meant by spreading false gospel. 

Britto, you are advised and forewarned against people who speak 'for' conditional security and salvation. They are the ones as you said - misinterpret the verses.  

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 9:53:11 AM Close

Joe is the person sugarcoating his evil doctrines with false assurance and make the belivers feel good in following his diabolical teaching. If he continues attacking me covertly or overtly, then I will retaliate him suitably.

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 10:01:10 AM Close

Hi Joe,

Holy Spirit surely is truly the access code for one to enter the kingdom of God. However what you said -

"The question of you at any point losing your salvation then does not arise. Because once you are received it, it is eternal." 

I cant quite agree to this point.Like I mentioned in my earlier reply, If a saved person/ believer (who has recieved the Holy Spirit in him) backslides and is aware he is sinning and does not want to repent, the Holy Spirit will not remain with him.If one is living in willful sin, he/she is allowing the devil to use himself/herself and serving the devil. God would not let his Holy Spirit to remain in such people even if they are saved/believers because you cannot serve the God and the devil at the sametime. God wants us to be his witnesses to lead others into Christ and if God would give his Holy Spirit to sinners (who were earlier saved/believers) whatever work God would accomplish through them, the devil would turn around and ruin it. Also if God allows his Holy Spirit to dwell in both the believers and sinners (who were once believers alike), this would also "be making God the monsieur of confusion and recklessness."

1 Corinthians 3:17 says - "If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple."

God is not a God of wrath. He loves us and wants us all to be saved. If he was a wrathful God, the above mentioned verse would have happened to the people who lose salvation. Instead God loves us and considers us as his children and thats why he disciplines and chastens us (Hebrews 12:6).

Rgds,

Britto

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 10:07:30 AM Close

Dear Britto,

You have rightly identified in your post dated 29 Apr 2017  3:57:32 PM that Joe is a self contradicting person.

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 10:19:49 AM Close

Proving a person wrong or blaming a person or community was never my intention of starting this thread. I felt something wrong happened and hence thought of discussing it.

I would be more than happy to go on with the topics relevant to this discussion.

Hope you understand :)

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 10:36:40 AM Close

Dear Britto,

I know that only with a good intention, you have pointed out his contradiction. However, it has also exposed this person's contradicting nature. If he deletes his post with undue remarks on me, I too will delete mine.

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 11:39:40 AM Close

Dear Britto,

With regard to the question you raised in your opening post, I would like to say that the solution is simple. If the Brethren girl marries the Pentecostal boy (spiritually there is no offence, even if it is seen as denominational offence), it is better she would prolong her fellowship only with the Pentecostal church her husband affiliates to. After all, Pentecostals are also belevers and she cannot shuttle  between  fellowships in both the denominations. Her parents should not be humiliated on this matter by the Brethren persons and the parents should be treated well with all dignity.

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 11:42:13 AM Close

@kristianjude - What you have said right now says it all - "spiritually there is no offence, even if it is seen as an denominational offence".

This was precisely my point - we should be more worried about the spiritual offences than the denominational offences.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 12:01:08 PM Close

Hello Britto,

There is nothing contradictory to what I have said. Have you referred to the verses that I have stated to see the references on what I am talking about? Did you read them?

Do not go by what Kristian Jude says. There are highly reputable brothers who once used to post in this forum who have discredited him for his unscriptural stance.  Neither has he read the explanations that I have given or seen the reasoning I have provided for my stance.  I have backed it with scriptures and its standing. I have not threatened him but stated a fact that was written about him. There were few others just like him as well, who fortunately have stopped posting as well. To say they will retaliate is where you go by what is in the OT eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth and forget what the Lord has said through Paul. Let your conversation be seasoned with salt that you know how to answer anyone.

Let me try and elaborate the best way I can on what you have written and why there is deviant to the understanding you have given. This is far off from the topic of marriage as the topic has evolved.

  1.  You are taking the context of the Old Testament for your understanding of the word of God. That is marvellous. The Old testament, Israel, David, the prophets and all the wise men foretell of Christ Jesus. The fulfilment of the prophecy. In the OT, the spirit of God came and went as the Lord directed. That is why it took possession of people in the most dramatic of ways. For e.g. Saul getting possessed by the spirit and people asking ‘Is he among the prophets’, even though he was wicked and chasing David. And so forth. That is why we see David prayed that the spirit does not depart from him. There was a need to keep appealing to God for it.
  2. In the New testament that is not the case. Did you read the first verse which I last posted? The key word is ‘Forever’. Is there some sort of confusion here on this? Can anyone disregard what the Lord has said to His disciples about the Helper?  Do you want to reinterpret what the Lord said? Mind you and everyone who reads this, this is the Lord who said the Helper will be there with you forever. Not me, nor the apostles, nor the prophets. This is stated clearly and in simple fashion by the Lord Jesus Christ.
  3. It is clear from the Bible there are people who made professions of faith in Jesus Christ but never genuinely received Him as Savior. They were pretend believers. Those who turn away from Christ never really trusted Him to begin with, as 1 John 2:19 says, ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us’. These are the sinners that you are talking about. But for you and if you are a believer: This is what is for you. ‘I John 2:20: But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.’
  4. As I stated in my earlier post. Your salvation is secure. This is not a diabolical teaching or a wrong doctrine. This is the doctrine that is the word of God. These are words of assurance on why it is so: Romans 8:28-30: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.  What marvellous blessing is this, that we who are/were wretched have been called to his taste His mercies and experience saint and godhood with Him
  5. In your human condition, there is no denying the fact that you are weak. The flesh is weak. But that is why the helper is there with you. Constantly guiding you. Being in the spirit is a constant exercise to grow in the Lord. That is why you have to be careful and examine oneself and keep consistently checking and reexamining oneself. 2 Corinthians 13:4-5: 4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?.
  6. Now if it is the question of believers always committing sin and not repenting. I have answered that in one way through point 3. The other notion is that they are not aware of their sin because there are stumbling blocks in the assembly. The workings of the holy spirit are subdued. That is when intervention happens through external forces through the Holy Spirit. I do not know if you realise this, but the epistles of Paul, Peter, John, James and Jude is all about intervening and helping believers and the children of God to come back to Him in the right manner. There is no notion in the word of God where it is written, that the spirit of God will be taken away. On the contrary, you are sealed by His spirit Ephesians 1: 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. By this, you should understand. You either have the spirit or not. There is no in-between in the NT. For the Lord yes is yes. No is No. There is no maybe. About what you see in terms of other people being unrepentant. The Lord knows how to deal with them. Like the wheat and the tares. Your call is to examine yourself and make yourself holy I Peter 1:15: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
  7. All this might sound confusing to you at this juncture. But to get a little bit more clarity I would recommend you understand how the Holy spirit works. NOBODY can follow God unless he is led by the spirit. Then they are the sons/daughters of God. Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. This can be a start for you. You can get some more clarity from the following verses: John 16:13, John 14:26, Galatians 5:16-18, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:26, Ephesians 2:8-10. This could be a start for your meditation and understanding.

If there is still any contradiction in what I have written after this explanation. I think it is best that we let the Lord reveal to you and whoever read this what the true intentions are. I have backed each of my points with scripture as a reference. I have not added nor I have subtracted any word from the scripture. I have tried and explained it in the manner of logic that the Lord would want us to understand.

Coming back to the topic of marriage and denomination.

  1. I do hold strong opinions about different denominations. But I have stated in my earlier post - there are good people. Yet they are misled. We must pray for them. But we need to keep our distance and let the Lord work in them. The Lord had strong views against the Pharisees and Sadducees. Peter and Paul had strong views against trouble-making Jews and sorcerers. We have to take a strong stand against anything that is not scriptural or from God. But to know that, we need to examine everything I The 5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. You should not get muddled in people and things which are wrong. Not everyone who calls Lord, Lord will go to heaven. The scripture and the spirit will reveal all things.
  2. It is easier to bring an unbeliever to God than someone who supposedly professes to believe. Let me give you an example from the word of God. Rahab and Ruth. Ruth in all accounts should not have entered the community of Israel in any lifetime. Deuteronomy 23:3: An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD forever: I hope you understand where the lineage of Christ is when He was in the flesh comes from. Look at God’s wondrous plans.  Look at the context today. Everyone is offered salvation. Be it some way or the other, they will come to the Lord. If He has a plan for them
  3. Again, in the topic, you have raised. I do not agree if any defamatory and derogatory remarks were made against the parents. As stated earlier. If the Lord willed. It would have happened irrespective of a man standing in the way. Just like Rebekah taking the step ahead with the confidence in God to go forward even though all her loved ones being sceptical and trying to stop it from happening. And who knows the boy would have come to the realisation of the ways of the Lord through her. But God had other plans. Maybe He knew that the girl’s family were not established enough in the faith for such a renewal of spirit to happen that the Lord chose otherwise. We do not know of His workings. But we can marvel at it, because it is always for our very own good.
  4. The doctrine which the Pentecostal people follow is wrong. I have explained this in my second post. This is not going to help the girl or her family.

 

And thus, I end here hopefully with the scriptural verses mentioned in italics which might help you understand it a little better.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 12:30:10 PM Close

Britto,

Three last things :) 

I presume you are new here. So you do not know the fun that happens. 

  1. This is a question more or less. By any chance are you the pentecostal boy asking this question from a third party perspective? Just curious. Not going to judge if you are, because i liked our interaction
  2. Please read the posts carefully. I just realised when you read it one go, it can look controversial. But when you read it more clearly, you will see why it makes sense.  I used to think most of the posts here are controversial. hence had to read them 2-3 times to make sure
  3. There are chances that a 'diabolical' response might come from someone who has posted in this forum. And in turn, the web administrator deletes his comments in totality or the complete post. So I would advise that the copy and past your discussion some place else for your reference.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 12:35:37 PM Close

Joe is right, yes I had been 'discredited'  by the 'highly reputable' persons on this forum many a time. 'Discredting' means 'destroying one's credibility' Those persons did that job well and Joe bears witnesses.

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 12:42:24 PM Close

Hello Joe,

I have read all the references that you have given from the scripture along with your reply and assume you too would have done the same with my replies.I thought this was an understood thing while discussing an issue. You listen to eachothers point, try to understand it and then respond.

"The doctrine which the Pentecostal people follow is wrong. I have explained this in my second post." - This might be wrong in your sight.

Even I have given the scriptural references which prove otherwise. I do not know who you are or who Kristian Jude is or  who "the highly reputable brothers who once used to post in this forum who have discredited him for his unscriptural stance" you mentioned are. 

This discussion was nice where we got to learn/understand a lot of things and at the end of it, I am more inclined to what Kristian Jude says - "spiritually there is no offence, even if it is seen as an denominational offence".Its a personal choice to make if one desires respect from the people/community or from the Lord.

PS - To kill your curiosity and to be honest with you, Yes indeed! I spoke from a third party perspective so that I could understand what the so called differences are :)

And yes I have saved a copy of this thread :)

Thnx,

Britto

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 1:20:19 PM Close

Joe,

1 final thing. I was reading the other discussions also in this group and happened to read the below (one of your comments on 22 Nov 2016 12:49:00 PM thread # 08245 :  Romans 8 : 1) -

Hi Kristian Jude,

Not putting a point for the sake of an argument. But intepretation errors can happen since it is human. How one drafts a sentence can construe different set of meaning. In Christ and union in Christ are two different phrases altogether. Yes, the crux is understood because we know the context and yes, an integral part of the verse is also missing as well. Its like saying - He crossed the bridge and saying he crossed over the bridge. The meaning at the end is the same. But how it is put has a different context.

No arguments from my side. Its best to refer what one finds best for meditation and then we have the spirit of God for guidance.

Regards,

Joe

This was exactly my point when I said in my second or third reply - "The Bible has been translated to many languages multiple times over the period of so many years and so its interpretation has changed.Just a change in single word can cause a change in the meaning of the entire verse. So what i would do is if i read the word I would pray to God to make me understand what it means rather than leaning on my own understanding and accepting the literal meaning of it."

But I do not understand why you chose to differ from your opinion for  almost the same discussion in this thread :P

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 1:32:09 PM Close

Hello Britto,

Thank you for your answers. And it is good you understood.

Pray could you give me the references from the scriptures that you have pointed out a little bit more clearly. This is not to judge or condemn you or malign you. God forbid this. If not, it is fine.

Why I say the doctrine is wrong is based on the scripture.  I established through the word of God the following:

  1. The spirit of God will reside with man forever once he/she believes in God. Here is a reference for your reading in detail and in leisure, it is good: https://www.gotquestions.org/indwelling-of-the-Holy-Spirit.html. You might want to refer to the word of God and meditate first and then refer to it
  2. There is no contention between us on tongues. We know why it is given and what purpose it serves. So, I will not indulge in it 
  3. I agreed if anything defamatory or contentious was spoken about the families, it is not right. And explained the stance earlier. So will not indulge on what the outcome was.
  4. After confession, the spirit teaches the doctrine through meditation and prayer. The doctrine of God is clear on all issues pertaining to marriage. If you are doctrinally wrong. There is nothing called being spiritually wrong or being offensive. Just plain wrong. The spirit of God is never wrong. He/She who is in Christ is never wrong

The Lord will show you the right way soon and I will have you in my family's prayer.  Take care and may God guide you in your endeavours in finding a partner.

Regards,

Joe

P.S. Kristian Jude, I  will keep you in my prayers. 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 1:57:11 PM Close

Hello Britto, 

To your last post it would be good you read the entire thread :)

This is what I would summarise:

Fyi: The meaning at the end is the same. But how it is put has a different context.

That is what I wrote in the end.  I never implied that the meaning changed.

In another place, I wrote: In any case, the context still remains the same. Those who believe in Christ have no condemnation

 And in another: My point has always been that the omission can happen because of the interpretation of different texts. How one relates to the first sentence and then connects to the second one. It seems that was missed. As I stated earlier, different interpretation has different renders for the verses. Some translation, the first portion was enough. Some other translation, the continuation is there or was needed. 

Again I said when a counter point was put: 

  1. The people who have put in efforts to translate and interpret the verses using critical text, NU etc. have all done based on some form of judgement. This is true for KJV as well. How can one be sure that the verses that are translated are exactly what is written apart from the fact that the scholars say so? Unless of course, one goes into studying and then substantiating it. Even then what is assurance people believe you on it? None, you have to have faith and trust in God 

 There is no substantial difference in the meaning. There is no question however, the spirit of God needs to guide you.

In my current post this is what I wrote:

The Word of God remains constant and the meaning the same in most translations which are inspired by God onto the interpreters. To say they have changed or assume they have changed the meaning is to undermine the years of toil and sweat they put into bringing the word of God to us in a manner that is easy for us to understand.

We from the KB commonly use the KJV NKJV and NIV. I don’t see anything substantially wrong with the other translations. But this is what we refer to most of the times. To assume that one word would change the entire meaning is to say the word of God is being falsified. But that is not the case. For e.g. ‘Thou shall not kill and Do not kill’ holds the same meaning everywhere.

I clearly implied what we normally referred to here as well. 

I end here finally and pray we all grow in His grace. You may choose your calling as you see fit and think of what I have written being contradictory. This only happens when one has selective reading or nitpicks. But in the end, God will show us His ways.

Regards and take care.

Joe

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2017 1:59:24 PM Close

Hi Joe,

Yes my bad, I did not mean to say that the meaning of the Word of God changes but because the words change, ommisions occur - if you as a person take the literal meaning of it based your own understanding the meaning does change. I did not mean the meaning of the Word of God ever changed. That is the reason i also said, "So what i would do is if i read the word I would pray to God to make me understand what it means rather than leaning on my own understanding and accepting the literal meaning of it." and you also seem to have the same opinion on this :)

And we discussed things about holy spirit, tongues majorly and I have given my references in the replies above. So I guess you can refer back to my replies and have a look at it. I will also read and understand the points that you have mentioned :)

Keep in prayers!

Regards,

Britto

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2017 2:13:33 AM Close

Thank you Britto,

It is a relief that you understood that I did not contradict myself and that was just the initial perception. :-)

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2017 11:03:24 AM Close

This final post is a summary of clarification and my stand with regards to inter denominal marriages and the matter of the spirit and how it influences people who have been chosen by God.

Here I am going to address only the relationship between Brethren and Pentecostal community. Let me start off by saying both these communities have their own distinct characteristics. I am a bit vocal about the Pentecostal ideology and theology that they practice since 100% off the time they cannot prove what they are basing their stand on. Having said that, I am not brethren sympathizer as well. They are a case of knowing the right thing, but doing exactly the opposite.

There is nothing called as the ‘brethren doctrine’. There is a doctrine according to the word of God. Brethren people in theory follow the doctrine according to the scriptures. There is a reason for why that had happened and is explained in the brethren history. I don’t wish to indulge in it since that is not the discussion here.

As I stated in all my posts the common ground is that they both accept the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And that is where it ends.  To be honest, all the other denominal Christians also accept that the Lord Jesus Christ is the son of God. For that matter, even the demons accept he is the son of God. That, therefore is a not a common ground that anyone should base any future relationship or association.

The main areas where it differs and could cause a lot of matrimonial and personal discomfort is

  1. Doctrine & teaching
  2. Role of women
  3. Holy spirit & gifts

What does the word of God say? I will discuss this in time in detail in a separate post later with scriptural evidence.

  1. The Holy Spirit resides in all believers the minute they accept the Lord as their Lord and Saviour. It makes the believer’s heart, its permanent abode till the second coming of the Lord
  2. Women are equal through submission and are not permitted to talk in the church. The reason for it is because they were deceived and, because of the angels. This does not make them any less in of a partaker. Mind you, man’s punishment was greater because he knowingly let himself go astray
  3. The gift of tongues is not for your conversation to believers but as a sign TO unbelievers. Randomly muttering something and calling it a tongue is not a tongue

In the past or today’s day and age, unless the Lord wills/ed, such an alliance is not considered because of these disparities. Do note, it is not that there are not alliances from these communities. Of course, there are. But keeping in consideration, that we profess to have the spirit and they don’t, till you ask for it constantly. It is unlikely such alliances should go forward. Just like God commanding the Israelites not to marry outside their tribes and congregation. But again, grace can be found only in the Lord’s plan. Like for say, Tamar, Ruth, Rahab and Esther. So, one has to let him/herself loose into the hands of God for the real direction.

Regards,

Joe

 

 

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2017 1:55:30 PM Close

My two cents - 

1 Corinthians 3:7 says - "So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow."

All Christian denominations/leaders are like - "the one who plants or the one who waters"  ---------> This is not the major thing as the Word of God says.

only God, makes things grow --------------> Please understand this and keep the Word of God as your reference rather than any denomination heads/pastors/evangelists.

And to the points you mentioned :

 -The Holy Spirit resides in all believers the minute they accept the Lord as their Lord and Saviour. It makes the believer’s heart, its permanent abode till the second coming of the Lord

True, the Holy Spirit will be there till the second coming. But beware that if one is living in willful sin, he/she is allowing the devil to use himself/herself and serving the devil. God would not let his Holy Spirit to remain in such people.

-Women are equal through submission and are not permitted to talk in the church. The reason for it is because they were deceived and, because of the angels. This does not make them any less in of a partaker. Mind you, man’s punishment was greater because he knowingly let himself go astray

No Comments on this one !

-The gift of tongues is not for your conversation to believers but as a sign TO unbelievers. Randomly muttering something and calling it a tongue is not a tongue

True! I completely agree to this point. This is where a lot of pentecostal churches are going wrong. I hope and pray this changes. Moreover Gift of Tongue is not the only gift/sign of Holy Spirit. There are many other good gifts as well which we should look at and desire to have.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control.

1 Corinthians 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. "It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work."

As the scripture says, each and everyone will be evaluated according to the work done ! Its not our job to judge. Pray for the people who you think are going wrong, thats the best one can do for them :)

Regards,

Britto

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2017 3:58:23 PM Close

Britto,

I appreciate that you stand fast on your view on the Holy Spirit. 'Quench not the Spirit (1Thessalonians 5:19)'- This is what the Scripture says.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2017 11:50:27 PM Close

Britto,

I wanted to conclude that as a summary of posts. For your reference and since you quote that you take reference from the word of God.  About the Holy pirit of God,  I would advise that you clearly look at the word of God in the context of the HS and in my posts. If the holy spirit is not there in a true believer, irrespective of whether he/she willfully/unwill fully sins (I would never advise they keep sinning) then they are reprobates and not children of God. 2 Cor 13:5:  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

A believer is constantly evolving in the spirit. They will always keep growing and they are doing all this in the flesh, which is weak. Because of want of time. I would advise you to read the scriptures and use these references online to get a better grasp on the word of God.

  1. https://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-leave.html
  2. https://www.compellingtruth.org/Holy-Spirit-leave.html
  3. https://www.moodyglobal.org/beliefs/holy-spirit/

The Holy Spirit is your seal of redemption. If you want to see someone misinterpret the word of God, you have one who just posted above. That is the misinterpretation of the meaning or not understanding the context. Do not be beguiled.  Neither can they establish what we say is wrong, but they can go in circles to plain confuse.

Gifts and fruits are two different things. It would be best you look at them separately. 

  1. A gift is a demonstration of the power of God.
  2. A fruit is the result of God's grace growing in you. 

You have taken a verse from 1 Corinthians, here you need to think for yourself? Does the spirit of God leave the person? No, it doesn't. The more you are led and controlled by the spirit, the better you become, and the better your prize before God. 1 Cor 3:15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

These all will make sense only if you believe in the unconditional security of salvation. If not, then we have reached an impasse.

Regards

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 12:48:33 PM Close

Britto,

1 Thessalonians 5:19 says ‘Quench not the Spirit’, it does not say that not to quench the power of the Spirit or the activity of the Spirit as the Calvinists misinterpret, but says that not to quench very much the existence of the Spirit.  Quenching just does not mean suppressing but making something to be unavailable. If the fire is quenched, the fire itself goes out.

1 Corinthian 3:15 speaks of a believer’s missionary work, not about his spiritual conduct or behavior. If his work in God’s ministry is not up to the mark, it shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. But if one’s Christian life style turns to be carnal and he becomes a willful sinner, he will be put in the adversaries' camp to meet the fiery indignation (Hebrews 10:27).

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 1:04:27 PM Close

Hi Joe,

I have been reading the references you had given with prayer and an open heart for understanding. I have understood and agree with you on a few things -

Regarding Holy Spirit - 
- Does the spirit of God leave the person? No, it doesn't. The more you are led and controlled by the spirit, the better you become, and the better your prize before God.
- If one still tends to go the wrong way, God disciplines and chastens us as HE loves us and considers us as his sons (Heb 12:6).
- However, sinning does quenches and grieves the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19 and Eph 4:30).

Regarding unconditional salvation -
I want to understand more about this and would like to hear your views on the topic.
Also (again not quoting this verse for arguement sake), would like to hear your thoughts on the below verse -
Hebrews 6:4-8 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

Regarding gift of Holy Spirit (esp. Gift of Tongue)-
I still hold on to my views regarding the gift of tongues. If prophecy is a gift of holy spirit, so is the gift of tongues. However, there are false/fake people or leaders in every denomination. Looking at them we should not be doubting the existence of tongues. Let God be the judge!

Looking forward to hear from you.

Rgds,
Britto

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 1:27:15 PM Close

Britto,

Can I make sure that you are withdrawing your following statement (Your post dated  2 May 2017 13:55:30)?

'......But beware that if one is living in willful sin, he/she is allowing the devil to use himself/herself and serving the devil. God would not let his Holy Spirit to remain in such people' (emphasis added)

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 2:22:06 PM Close

HI kristianjude,

This is new for me as well. I read through and discussed about what Joe said. PFB -

- For any saved person who sins, deep within his heart there would be something stopping him before he commits the sins or gives him a guity conscience in his alone time or makes him want to stop this lifestyle and come back to God at some point of his life. This something is the Holy Spirit.

God’s Spirit in us reminds us to resist temptation and to live God’s way of life (Romans 7:22-25). However, the choice and the control are up to the individual. The more you are led and controlled by the spirit, the better you become, and the better your prize before God. Other way around, more you surrender to your own mind, more you grieve/quench the Holy Spirit.

Rgds,

Britto

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 2:53:47 PM Close

so, the Holy Spirit once entered in a person will never go out at any point? once a person is saved, always saved? don't hesitate to give a plain and open reply. I will write no more even if you differ from  me.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 2:59:33 PM Close

'However, the choice and the control are up to the individual'- confusing statement.

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 3:24:31 PM Close

From what I understood, If a saved person forsakes Jesus's name (i.e. does not believe that Jesus is the Saviour) he would not be saved.

For all the others who unknowingly sin, they have a chance to realise it , repent and come back to God and they will be saved.

For the people who think anyways Salvation is unconditional, and knowingly sin - God knows their hearts and will judge accordingly.

'However, the choice and the control are up to the individual'- 

Romans 8:5 - "Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires."

We have the Holy Spirit which wants to lead us in a Godly way and other part - flesh which tries to get the wordly thoughts into our minds. These 2 are in constant war with eachother. We as an individual have the choice of both and it is upto us to which of these 2 choices we submit ourselves to. A person who submits to the Holy Spirit when faced with a temptation to do wrong, seeks help from God's Spirit and relies on his power to slay the act before it happens. I hope the confusion is cleared now.

Rgds,

Britto

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2017 3:38:20 PM Close

Britto,

Thanks for the reply

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 4 May 2017 4:40:37 AM Close

Hello Britto,

Due to the want of time. I will give you my opinion and understanding in another post in a couple of days.

Regards,

Joe 

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Reply by : britto_raphael   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2017 6:47:36 AM Close

Ya sure. Waiting for the reply to learn/understand new things :)

Britto

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Reply by : samkul   View Profile   Since : 24 May 2017 5:13:21 PM Close

Holispirit had entered in to my body. I started speaking in Tongues

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