Hey All,

This is a discussion which came as a by product of the discussion of the post # 08294 :  Repost - Brethren person marrying a Pentecost person.

I have been waiting for 9-10 days for a reply on the previous post but I think subject of the previous post does not address the actual discussion point and hence there is no discussion there. Hence starting this new thread :)

Regarding unconditional salvation -
I want to understand more about this and (again not quoting this verse for arguement sake), would like to hear your thoughts on the below verse -
Hebrews 6:4-8 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

Rgds,

Britto

From what I understood, If a person(who is previously saved/unsaved) forsakes Jesus's name (i.e. does not believe that Jesus is the Saviour) he would not be saved.

For all the others who unknowingly sin, they have chance to realise it , repent and come back to God and they will be saved.

For the people who think anyways Salvation is unconditional, and knowingly sin - God knows their hearts and will judge accordingly.

Hello Britto,

I got to check the KB site today after some time. I apologise for not responding earlier. As I would have explained this is primarily due to the want of time. I shall hopefully address this tomorrow.

in the mean time, you can with the scriptures refer to the following commentary Eternal Security by Charles Stanley 

Regards,

Joe

P.S. Britto, most of the participants in this forum are not active anymore mainly due to constraints of time, lack of interest and increase in misguided proponents.

Hello Britto,

Fortunately, I have been spared on writing about condition security. If you refer to: http://keralabrethren.net/boardkb/view.asp?id=8302&forum=General you should have most of your doubts cleared.

Regards,

Joe

Thank you :)

Brethren man can mary pentesoal women/ But Pentecosall girls can't marry brethren boys and pentecostal boys and marthomite boys or catholics or Syriran chrians or Orthodox or JacobiyesD6D2D is my seucirty code. 

WHERE IS BOBY CHACO JAMES NOW A DAYS ALSO JEORGE KOSY is not seen DKHFK is my security code

Britto,

Are you clear now or do you require more clarification? 

Regards,

Joe

HI Joe,

The other thread got deleted. However, I was able to find one similar in the archives of general forum (2005-2007). # 01473 :  Can a saved person lose his salvation if he sins?

I am reading from there for now. If you have the time, I would still love to hear what you have to say :)

Regards,

Britto

Hello Britto,

Before I give you my understanding on this matter. It would be wise if we touch a few topics leading to the question at hand. Which means let's address some questions that need to be asked before one looks for the answers to the current question.

I don't want to go into long, unwinding and confusing exposition here. So if you can answer these questions to the best of your knowledge, we will take it from there.  my objective is to keep it simple. Pray, I can.

1. How would you describe God?
2. Do you believe if God has a plan for everything/everyone?
3. Do you believe if God knows the past/present/future of everything and everyone?

Hi Joe,

1. God to me is like a Father who cares and provides for me.He is like a Mother to whom I can tell all my troubles and cry out.

2. Yes, I believe God has a plan for everything/everyone.

3. Yes, I do believe God is omniscient.

Rgds,

Britto

Hello Britto,

Good, you have an understanding about the omnipotence of God. Lets now dig a little deeper.

1. Does God know when you would be saved?
2. Does God know when a believer would sin after he/she has been saved?

Think about this a bit before answering.

Regards,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Bible says in Luke 12:7 - 7And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid;

I trust this completely which implies the smallest of things that happens to me is known to God.

So my answer to both your questions is a big Yes.

Regards,

Britto

Hello Britto,

This might appear at some levels to be very childish. But believe me, the realisation will dawn soon once the exercise is completed without any interruptions.  

So you believe:

God knows when I would be saved and when I would sin even after being saved. 

You also believe that God has a plan for everything also. 

Now the next set of questions

1. Do you accept that God can control you?
2. Do you also accept, you have a choice?
3. Do you believe that spirit of God can control you if you let it control you? 
4. Or, do you believe that when it comes in, it will start controlling you immediately and not let go?

Regards

Joe

HI Joe,

I agree to the first three points.

Regards,

Britto

Good Britto.

So we are getting somewhere. So if you believe all this. 

1. Do you believe he had a plan for you before you were even thought about by parents?
2. Do you believe that as much as He has plans for you? He also lets evil people also take form and birth?

Regards,

Joe

HI Joe,

I agree to the first point but I am not sure of the second one. I dont know if God pre destines people for hell.

Regards,

Britto

Hello Britto,

It's a valid point. But it muddles the question. 

The question: Do you believe that as much as He has plans for you? He also lets evil people also take form and birth? 

There is no question of hell here, for the time being. We will deal with that later. I will add two more questions to it, to make it relevant and easier

1. Do you accept that God allows evil people to take form and birth?
2. Do you believe that when you were born, you were 'technically' evil? Or lets put a sober term which does not result in anybody else crediting this as heresy: Were you born in sin?
3. And finally, Does sin come when one becomes/is evil?

Regards,

Joe

Hi Joe,

1. We all were born in sin. If a person is spirit led, he/she tends to commit lesser sins. Otherwise the person sins a lot more. So if I were to take only the above two points in consideration, God does allow all sort of people to be born into this world and based on the choices they make in their lives they are either good or bad.

2. True that everyone is born in sin. We are born in sin, but we continue to sin by our own personal choice.

3. Sin is always within us. When one tends to sin a lot, he/she gets a tag of bieng an evil person/sinner/bad person.

Rgds,

Britto

Hello Britto,

Apologies for the delay, I had been caught with work.  I am now going to make a statement. If we agree on it. I will go ahead and give you my understanding. If not, we shall come to a mutual understanding before we proceed

Statement

Irrespective of how sinful I was, God chose me according to His plan. If I truly believe this. Even if I 'accidentally or willfully' sin after being saved. The Lord knows my heart, I will automatically/willingly repent and would strive to live a life which is worthy of Him. Because he knows me before I was formed, He planned for me before I was born and He loved me before I could ever love him back.

Regards,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I have my doubts on the willfully sinning part. But apart from that I agree to what you stated.

Regards,

Britto

Hello Britto,

What I mean is those silly little white lies, small dislike, some amount of backstabbing or backbiting or gossip, you must have done after you have been saved. You are in the flesh. The flesh has temptations and trials. You must have done something discomforting a few moments ago.

Remember. Even then the Lord has forgiven you because he knows you will repent. Do you accept that?

Regards, Joe

P.s. I am travelling these days. So my responses might be a bit sporadic.

HI Joe,

Agreed :)

Hello Britto,

I am back. Now since we are in agreement to the most of the things that were asked earlier. Let's get into a bit more depth. Now the questions might seem a bit tricky, so read carefully and if you do not understand, ask,

1. Do you believe God has given free will to man?

2. Do you believe that if needed, God can control/influence the thoughts of man, but chooses not to do so?

Regards,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I thought this discussion was dead :p Still used to check for updates every day!!

I agree to both the points that you have mentioned.

Rgds,

Britto

Good.

So do you believe:

1. God has a right to choose you at an appointed time?

2. You have the free will to believe in God?

Regards,

Joe

Yes definitely

Okay. 

So do you believe that God could predestine your salvation, knowing the fact you would eventually, at an appointed time, in your own free will accept the Lord as your saviour and God?

Regards,

Joe

One group of Eternal Security proponents say that man has freewill to accept the Lord, then lose his freewill to deny the Lord. Traditional Kerala Brethren is this group and the other group who follow Calvinism 's TULIP say that man has no freewill at all.

KristianJude,

This is a discussion which I am having with Britto on his understanding. Everyone is free to express their opinion on a public forum. But it would be great if you would not confuse them. We are not looking at what the worldly proponents think. If you have an opinion do share the same but at a later point of time. 

Regards,

Joe

discerning pesons will never get confused.  Are 'worldly proponents'  not 'Spiritual persons', who are spiritual proponents?

I do believe - that God could predestine your salvation, knowing the fact you would eventually, at an appointed time, in your own free will accept the Lord as your saviour and God?

Regards,

Britto

KJ,

Your assumption and logic that 'discerning people will never be confused' is based on your limited understanding of the scripture. The greatest testament of deception and confusion is the Scripture and the examples of man it provides. In the NT, all the epistles come with a warning on how people can be confused, beguiled, deceived and so forth. If that was not the case as per your earthly logic, Ap. James would not have written: Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Again, a humble request. Do not jump in to confuse people who are mutually willing to learn. This is a thoughtful discussion for Britto and me. I understand your boredom. People don't entertain your topics. But mind you, we will rectify that at a later stage and on a different thread.

If you can grasp this in the right sense and spirit, so be it. If not, I don't have anything more to say to you on this.

Regards,

Joe

So Britto,

Since you have answered all these questions and believe in the omnipotence of God.

Do you believe that in such a scenario, salvation could be lost?

Regards,

Joe

We can see different groups of religious Jews who are confused about Jesus. There is the group that John calls “the Jews” (7:1, 11, 13, 15, 35). This refers to the Jewish religious leaders, whom John also identifies as the Pharisees and chief priests, who were Sadducees (7:32). These groups were often rivals, but they viewed Jesus as a common enemy. So they joined together to try to seize Him (7:30, 44, 45). But they knew that many in the crowd liked Jesus. They also remembered Jesus’ disrupting their business by cleansing the temple. So they had to proceed cautiousl

Also, there is a larger group whom John calls “the crowd” (7:12, 20, 31, 32). This would include Jewish pilgrims who had come up to Jerusalem for the feast from all over Israel and from other countries. Many of them were not aware that the Jewish leaders were seeking to kill Jesus, so when He mentioned this, they accused Him of having a demon (7:20).

Then there is a narrower group that John calls “the people of Jerusalem” (7:25-27). They were confused both about who Jesus was and about why their religious leaders were not arresting Him. Because of misunderstanding both about the origins of the Messiah and Jesus’ origins, they concluded that He could not be the expected Messiah.

For all these groups, Jesus was the confuser. Problem is not with the confuser.

I never mind if people don't entertain my topics and I lose nothing.

KJ,

I really do not know what your point is in most of your discussions. In one case you say you do not mind if people don't entertain you. In an another instance, you forcefully/deliberately put your viewpoints which are not relevant to any discussion across. This is very contradictory. The point is the discussion was never about the Jews or what happened in a historical context. Again, you prove your limited understanding or what you read and what you grasp. 

Believers can be confused about the grace of God, salvation and freedom in Christ. I would suggest you take some time out on a read through Galatians to understand this. Again, read through the discussion and the questions that were posted. Then, look at what you have written. I am sure you will feel you have posted something relevant. But no, it is not. Sometimes the greatest gift that you can give people is the gift of silence.

Regards,

Joe

Whether one entertains my topic or not, is not a matter for me. That does not hinder me from writing in this forum. What should I write, where should I stop and when should be silent, is the decision I have to take on my own.  

If one does not know what my points are in most of my discussions that is because of his impoverishment in understanding.   

Then why are you posting in this forum? If it does not matter. Or for that matter, why do you respond or feel the urge to personally take time out to write things, which maybe if the Lord reveals, regret later?

Clearly, the last line you have spoken.written is with your worldly wisdom and ego in place. I am sure, you hold forts like Rick, GP and few others on some notion that one's wisdom surpasses other's own understanding in every regard. 

This discussion was not started for that. I do not want to see Britto trying to play the 'diplomat' in trying to appease some sort of situation here. There was a thought that was being discussed and you interjected to confuse things. I humbly request you stop. If you cannot, We will take it out, but mind you. You have offended another brother with your shenanigans and if you are 'proverished' with an understanding of the word of God. You would know what the punishment for that is.

Regards,

Joe 

So Britto,

Since you have answered all these questions and believe in the omnipotence of God.

Do you believe that in such a scenario, salvation could be lost?

Regards,

Joe

Thanks for the cursing. Now, the next point to confuse: When we read the statement 'We are not looking at what the worldly proponents think', it means that both the Eternal Security groups, that is, Traditional KB believers and the Calvinist KB believers are these 'worldly proponents. And the man who says this, is not in either of these groups, because he is a 'spiritual propnent'!

Again, you do not understand what the topic of discussion is, what a curse really means and lastly, I mentioned the worldly components because of your constant need to interfere, confuse, talk in tangents and the fact, that you brought things up. There was no mention of any of your 'proponents' of KB, Calvinist or some theological group that you study on in any of my mention or discussions. Clearly, you are not going to stop since you like interfering, it's a compulsion. 

Britto, if you do read this, this discussion shall not be continued on this thread. If you wish to take it offline, do let me know. Otherwise, you will have KJ coming in to give you a trivia of things that are not relevant. If not, may God guide you.

Regards,

Joe

Since there is silence and no disruption. We can continue here.

Let me know Britto whenever you are ready.

Disruption may occur at an appropriate time.

You cannot disrupt, build or destroy what the Lord is trying to build.

The disruption I am talking about is your lack of understanding of the scriptures. Which is evident since you trust on theological studies and analysis more than what the word of God states. Let me state here clearly so that you don't take my words and start creating your own perception on what I write. It is good to read about people's viewpoints and what people have written on/about the word of God. But that should not be the basis of your faith in Christ. Till you understand that, you will keep 'disrupting' and talk in random tangents. 

You clearly know that nobody entertains your topics because of these reasons. you say you are not bothered, but you respond and start spewing. That is contradictory behaviour.  You try and jump into others topics and infest it with wrong notions and understanding. May the Lord reveal to you the folly of your actions. And if required all discussions will now be taken offline.

 Joe

There is no 'try' for God, He will do just outrightly what He wants to do.