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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Other tounge

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# 00089 :  Other tounge
My friends are fighting with me because i dont say the other tounges.they say that ur not a beleaver if ur not saying it.what is the openion abt this?
Post by : bejoyaranmula  View Profile    since : 14 Nov 2005


Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 14 Nov 2005 12:57:25 PM Close
Dear bejoyaranmula,

Dr.Billy Graham is a man of charactor and God used him in a mighty way to lead over one hundred million people to salvation and Billy Graham doesn't speak in tongues. Do those people who accuse you, do they consider Billy Graham to be a true believer?. Tongues is one of the gifts
given to the body by the Holy Spirit. Not every one speaks in tongues. I hope this answer will satisfy those accusers.

Shared conept

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Reply by : abe   View Profile   Since : 17 Nov 2005 2:31:36 AM Close
A nice clarification. Thank you.
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Reply by : soumyathomas   View Profile   Since : 19 Nov 2005 1:14:54 AM Close
true,its a gift of the holy spirit.then why only BRETHREN people dont have this gift????
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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 21 Nov 2005 2:04:46 PM Close
Dear Soumyathomas,

Already there exist a good number of Brethrens that speaks in tongues. How can anyone box the work of the Holy Spirit and say that only Pentacostals can speak in tongues. "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where its going" (John 3:6). I am a fourth generation
Brethren and I speak in tongues. However I have strong disagreement with the Pentacostals in regards to how this gift should be excercised within the four walls of a local assembly. My
email address is "sharedconcept@hotmail.com". If you wish to contact me personally you are most welcome to do so. Looking forward to hearing from you.
sharedconcept

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 22 Nov 2005 6:14:54 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

Will you please explain how you talk in tounges?

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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 22 Nov 2005 8:51:23 AM Close
I am interested to know more on sharedconcept's view of tongues and how/when such a gift must be exercised.
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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 23 Nov 2005 1:21:50 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

No spiritual gift can be taught by someone else. In the natural, I was the most unlikeliest candidate to be speaking in tongues but God had mercy and compassion upon me. I remember mocking
at it till the end. A brother put his hands on top of my head and prayed over me and I spoke in tongues just like that. "Do not neglect your gift which was given you through a prohetic message when the body of elders laid hands on you" (1Tim.4:14) "He (Holy Spirit) gives them just as He determines" (1Cor.12:11). "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit" (1Cor.14:2).
This is bypassing our limited intellect and directly communicating with God. "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful" (1Cor.14:14). The Bible encourages believers everywhere to excercise this very gift.
Example, (1Cor.14:14,Eph.6:18,Jude:20). The Bible also tells us to have a strong desire for spiritual gifts. "Desire spiritual gifts" (1Cor.14:1) "Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts" (1Cor14:12) "But eagerly desire the greater gifts" (1Cor.12:31). My experience was an unusual one but by in large when a person has a strong desire, God tends to answer him/her.
Often our upbringing and the way we were taught has a direct impact upon our perception. The word of God remains the same but the inspiration and the revelation attached with that vey word is progressive. Looking forward to the reply

shared concept

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 23 Nov 2005 2:25:22 PM Close
Dear Varghese,

As I have mentioned in my past writings, I am a fourth generation Brethren and I do speak in tongues. It's wonderful to receive spiritul gifts from God. God also gave as guidance as to how these gifts should be excercised. "Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant" (1Cor.12:1). Unfortunately, on several occasions I myslef heard Pentacostal Pastors greeting others with the same old monologue "Abishakom prapicho". The priorities should be placed in the right places. They are obligated to ask others whether they are saved or not. You don't tie the cart before the ox rather it should be the other way around. "If anyone speak in a tongue two or the most three should speak one at time and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God" (1Cor.14:27-28). Unfortunately there is a sort of arrogance attached with these tongue speakers. They like to showboat it in front of others. May I remind you that this very act will create all sorts of problems. What about those who do not speaks in tongues?. Often they are hurt and sort of left out. A dear brother in kerala cried out to the Lord for this gift and 50 years later he gave a testimony before others that hidden sins were preventing him from receiving this gift. Nothing could have been further from the truth. The Pentacostals tends to look down on those who do not have this gift.Oh how sad and unfortunate. The scriptures clearly tells us that it's one of the gifts given by the Holy Spirit. 1Corinthians 12 & 14 gives us plenty of guidence as how it should be administered in the church. Can we just throw the baby along with the bath water?. No, do not forget that misuse doesn't call for disuse. Misuse calls for discipline.

shared concept

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 12:50:36 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept 4/1

As you said you spoke in other tongues.

Are you continued to speak in other tongue.
Or someone lay their hand and prayed then only speak in other tongue.
What spiritual benefit you received by this other tongue saying.
What spiritual benefit received by others by saying so.

1Co 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries. (Jude 20)

God understands our groaning, murmuring and thinking and speaking, when we are in contact with God with our mind, this will edify us.

Holy Spirit helping us to do so.

Rom 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He searching the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I/we believe that supernatural gifts provided in the transitional period from the Old to New; in the laying of the foundational work of the Church is no more operative now.

Foundation is laid only once, Jesus Christ, Our Lord & Saviour is the Corner Stone, in this Corner Store, the Apostles and Prophets laid the foundation, and other structural work is going on, it will go on until the completion of grace period.

Other tongue was a sign gift to unbelievers.

1Co 14:22 So that tongues are not a sign to those who believe, but to those who do not believe. But prophesying is not to those who do not believe, but to those who believe.

This supernatural gift was given for the confirmation of the Gospel, when the written word of God was not available.

Heb 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with different kinds of miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 12:53:09 AM Close
Dear Shareconcept 2/4


Presently the written Word of God is sufficient enough to spread the Gospel.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Luk 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone is pressing into it.

Gift of Apostleship is no more available. This was included raising of the dead, various signs and wonders.

There are different spiritual gifts provided by the Holy Spirit to the believers, for the Glory of God and edification of the Church and believers.

Gift of:
Evangelist, Elders, teachers, giving, mercy, Charity (Love), faith, comfort, ambassadors/missionary, help, prayer etc.

1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the gift in you, which was given you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the body of elders.

Timothy was exercising his spiritual gift provided by God, received by the inter-mediatory, the Apostle Paul by the gift of Apostleship, this Apostleship is no more available now.

2Ti 1:6 Therefore I remind you to inflame anew the gift of God, which is in you by the putting on of my hands.

Presently there is not need of any inter-mediatory to receive the spiritual gifts. Holy Spirits give us the Spiritual Gifts, as per his will for the Glory of God.

1Co 12:11 But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.

1Co 12:31 But zealously strive after the better gifts. And yet I show to you a more excellent way.

What is the better gift:

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I have become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

Charity (Love) is the better gift, need to seek.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 12:56:48 AM Close
Dear Shareconcept 3/4

Now all are seeking for the sign and wonders gift.

Mat 12:38-39 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we want to see a sign from you. But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall be no sign given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Generation will not make us godly; our relationship with God is the measurement of Godliness.

You may be under the influence of the man who put his hand on your head and prayed.

Please visit the following web thread, where you can see a good article related the supernatural gifts.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/areview.htm

What is a language/tounge?

What we communicate each other.

1Co 14:10 There are, I suppose, many different languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. (NIV)

Is there any angelic language/tounge?

Angels are messengers, they bring messages from God to man.

Angel of God Spoke to Hagar, it was understood by her.

Gen 16:7-8 And the Angel of Jehovah found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And He said, Hagar, Sarai's slave, where did you come from? and where will you go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 12:58:47 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept 4/4

God (angel of God) Spoke to Moses, it was understood by him.

Exo 3:2-4 And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire, out of the midst of a thorn bush. And he looked. And behold! The thorn bush burned with fire! And the thorn bush was not burned up. And Moses said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to see. God called to him out of the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Here I am.

Angels spoke to Manoha, Elijah, they understood the languages spoke to them by the angels.

Angels spoke to Zecharia, Joseph & Mary, they all understood the languages.

Luk 1:28-31 And the angel came in to her and said, Hail, one receiving grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what kind of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, Do not fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold! You shall conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS.

Angel spoke to Cornelius, all this incidents the language/tongue spoken was understandable.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 12:59:36 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept 5

After the Cornithians happening, where Apostle Paul was warning against the misuse of other tongue, there is no such things happened in the next centuries. For the last 1 or 1 1/2 centuries only this modern other tongue movement started. Then why it is not provided last so many centuries, that means it is ceased after the completion of laying the foundation of the Church and the perfect Word of God was available.

That is what we see in 1 Cor 13:

1Co 13:8-10 Charity never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be abolished; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be abolished. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease.

Jam 1:25 But whoever looks into the perfect Law of liberty and continues in it, he is not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work. This one shall be blessed in his doing.

Pagan religious sects, catholic charismatic so on people also speak in other tongue.

Pro 25:14 A man boasting himself in a false gift is like clouds and wind, but no rain.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 1:13:03 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept, Part-1/2

On 21 Nov 2005 14:14:46 ‘sharedconcept,’ wrote, “Already there exist a good number of Brethrens that speaks in tongues. How can anyone box the work of the Holy Spirit and say that only Pentacostals can speak in tongues. ‘The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where its going’ (John 3:6). I am a fourth generation Brethren and I speak in tongues. However I have strong disagreement with the Pentacostals in regards to how this gift should be excercised within the four walls of a local assembly.” I need some help from ‘sharedconcept’ to understand what he wrote:

Question 1: Are you using a pseudonym to cover-up the falsification of Christian character? Let me explain, I think you are using a pseudonym to claim the existence of a pseudo-language that you claim to be speaking. If it is not a language-language, why don’t you give us your real name and other information for verification? In the Word of God, the prophets, evangelists, apostles, so on, always proclaimed the words of God, that He gave them, without hiding their names. Why are you acting contrary to that characteristic of God’s preferred men of the past?

Question 2: John 3:6 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, but has everything to do with being ‘born from above,’ or ‘born again.’ Why are you taking the verse out of its context to seemingly prove a point?

Question 3: Who said only Pentecostals can speak in tongues? None on this forum said that.

(To be cont. Part-2/2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 1:15:17 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept, Part-2/2

Question 4: John 1:12 and similar verses tell us that a believer in Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, Lord, and God, is born of the Spirit. Therefore, he/she is a first generation child of God. There are no second, third, or fourth … generation Christian in the Assembly that the Lord builds. All are first generation Christians. In the light of this truth, how can there be a fourth generation Brethren, especially the one who speaks in tongues? If there are fourth generation Brethren, then that should be outside the birth as we read in John 1:12-14. Are you saying that a child that is born to parents in a local assembly is a member of that assembly? The Word of God teaches that a child born to believing parents are still a sinner and need to be born from above, as we read in John 3:6. Please answer, how a fourth generation brethren exists, while he/she is a sinner by birth from human parents?

All these indicate that the language you speak is not a tongue for the edification of unbelievers as we read in 1 Corinthians 14, but it is a language- a tongue - to deceive and mislead the innocent and unsuspecting.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 9:55:04 PM Close
Dear sambudhanoor,4/1

" As you said you spoke in other tongues. Do you continue to speak in tongues?"

Yes indeed, I continue to speak in tongues. In fact speaking in tongues is a pivotal part of my prayer life. Apostle Paul said "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. (1 Cor.14:18). "I would like everyone of you to speak in tongues(1Cor.14:5)"

"What spiritual benefit you received by this other tongue saying?.

1) For self edifiaction, "He who speaks in tongues edifies himself. (1Cor.14:4)

2) Uttering mysteries, "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to
God; he utters mysteries with his spirit. (1Cor.14:2)

3) My spirit communicating with God, "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1Cor.14:2)

4) To thank God, "You may be giving thanks well enough" (1Cor.14:17)

5) To build up my most holy faith, "But you, dear friends, build yourselves up, in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit" (Jude:20)

6) A sign for unbelievers, (1Cor.14:22)


You kept quoting Romans 8:26-27.

According to a noted Greek scholar P.C. Nelson, the people who translatd that portion from Greek to English made the biggest blunder. The original manuscript reads like this "groanings that cannot be uttered in an articulate language". It doen't have anything to do with the Holy Spirit interceeding for us with groans that words cannot express.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 28 Nov 2005 10:58:02 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,4/2

"Other tongues was a sign gift to unbelievers"

You are simply quoting one side. There is more to it than that. For example, Please explain why they still used that gift within the worship service? "If anyone speaks in tongue, two-or at the most three-should speak one at a time, and someone must interpret" (1Cor.14"27). Did they have unbelievers in the worship service?. As you quoted, if this gift is only a sign gift to unbelivers then why did God gave us conditions for excercising it in worship service setting?.
1 Corinthians 14:26 is considered to be the signature verse pertaining to the New Testament
worship service. "What then shall we say brothers?. When you come together,everyone has a
hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation,a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church".

"This supernatural gift was given for the confiration of the Gospel, when the written word of God was not available".

Unfortunately this very teaching came into the scene about a hundred years ago or so. It is called "Cessationalism". Benjamin Brekinridge Warfield, a professor at Princeton Seminary, popularized the argument that when the apostles died the gifts passed away with them.

"This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him, God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit distributing according to his will"(Heb.2:4).

My brother this passage does not say that signs will be pulled out with the first century. If anything, the last part of that verse says "the gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will". It is up to Holy Spirit and He is the one who decides who gets what and when. Your interpretation is rather weak.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Nov 2005 12:12:12 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor, 4/3

"Presently the written Word of God is sufficient enough to spread the Gospel".

That very word God gave us is encouraging us to desire spiritual gifts."Desire spiritual gifts (1 Cor.14:1, "Since you are eager to have spirtual gifts,try to excel in gifts that build up the church (1Cor.14:12), But eagerly desire the greater gifts (1Cor.12:31)".

"Timothy was excercising his spiritual gift provided by God, received by the inter-mediatory,the Apostle Paul by the gift of Apostleship, this Apostleship is no more available now".

According to the New Testament, there is only one mediator and that is Christ Jesus (1 Tim.2"5). How did you come up with that word "inter-mediatory"?. When Paul laid his hands on Timothy an impartation took place. If ONLY Apostles were given this privilege, then what happend when Ananias placed his hands on Saul? "Then Ananias went to the house an entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, Jesus has sent me so that you may see again and be FILLED with Holy Spirit" (Acts- 9:17). Ananias was not an Apostle. "He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there" (Acts 22:12).

"Gift of Apostleship is no more available. This was included raising of the dead, various signs and wonders".

Philip the Evangelist in Acts 8:6, "When the crowd heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said". In Luke 9:49 an ordinary man invoking the name of Jesus drove out demons. "Master, said John,"we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us". This man was NOT given special authority to drive out demons or cure diseases.
(Luke 9:1). The notion of ONLY Apostles were used by God in the supernatural realm is not valid.

According to the Word of God there is only a mediator between man and God


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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Nov 2005 1:02:52 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,4/3

"Now all are seeking for the sign and wonders gift".

How can you catogarize everyone in the same mold?. As I mentioned in the earlier forum, I did not seek after this gift rather I made fun out of it.

"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah".

In the Gospels in two different places Jesus Christ rebuked those who asked for a sign. (Mt.12:38-39, Mt. 16:4) On both of those occasions prior to the rebuke he performed supernatural miracles. "Then they brought him a demon posessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished but when the Pharisees heard this, they said it is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons that this fellow drives out demons." (Mt.12:22-24). This put down
actually grieved the Holy Spirit. (Mt.12:31).
After that these very people asked for a sign. There intention was not right. They simply wanted to be entertained by the supernatural power of God. Jesus was not in the business of entertainment. That is why he rebuked them in Mathew 12. In regards to the second rebuke, the same thing happend again. According to Mathew 15:34-38, Jesus multiplied seven loaves of bread and a few fishes and fed a multitude and there were seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. Right after that the Pharisees and saducees again asked for a sign. The intention was not right and that is why he rebuked them. It had nothing what so ever to do with Jesus being antisupernatural. I hope this explanation will refrain you from misusing those portions in the future.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Nov 2005 2:15:04 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor, 4/3

"You may be under the influence of the man who put his hand on your head and prayed".

I am not so sure as to what you really mean by that statement. When that dear brother prayed for me an impartation took place. Nothing more or nothing less. "I long to see you so that I may impart you some spiritual gift to make you strong" (Romans 1:11). No, it doesn't have to be Apostles and I already wrote about that.

"What is a language/tongue?. What we communicate each other".

Not only it is used for communicating with each other but it is also used for communicating with God. (1Cor.14:2,1Cor.14:14)

"Is there any angelic language/tongue?"

Even outstanding Bible scholars vary on the subject of angelic language. the NIV Study
Bible says Paul is using a hyperbole. A number of others thinks that it is literally a language.
I don't know how we can edify one another by discussing about this subject. As it is, we have been talking about the subject of tongues. It would be wonderful if we stick with one topic.

"After the Corinthians happening, where Apostle Paul was warning against the misuse of other tongue, there is no such thing happend in the next centuries".

Emperor Constantine, when he legalized Christianity, he did a diservice to the genuine faith, that is along with that whole process, a hord of secular practices were implemented into the church. After that for centuries it was a church without anypower.

"But when perfect thing comes,then that which is in part will be caused to cease"

That perfection is referring to to the second coming of the Lord Jesus. It is not about the cannonization of the scriptures. Don't forget onething, Even after we received the cannonized scriptures, we still don't know everything there is to know. We know in part and we prophasy in part.But after Jesus comes back we won't be needing any spiritual gifts. Until then, all the gifts mentioned in the New Testament are needed.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Nov 2005 3:13:29 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor, 4/4

"Pagan relegious sects,Catholic Charismatic so on peole also speak in other tongues"

Spiritual gifts are given to every believer(1Cor12:11). According to the word of God, in three different places the gfts were manefesting in the lives of believers where holiness was not very visible. In the Church at Corinth there was all kinds of problems. A man had his fathers wife, there were court cases among believers, people were getting drunk while they conducted the communion table, fractions within the assembly (I am of Paul,I am of Apollos Etc.) The question was, was it possible to see the spiritual gifts manefesting in the lives of these very people?. The answer to that question was "YES". "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed".(1Cor1:7).

Apostle Paul gave a stern warning to the Galatians. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal.1:8). Right after he left the church, erroneous doctrine began to prevail at that church. People were teaching that unless they went through the circumcision they could not be saved. In the midst of this wrong doctrine
Paul said "Does God give you his Spirt and work miricles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?.

It was the Holy Spirit that impowered Sampson. In Judges 16:1, Sampson spent an entire night with a prostitute. They were not conducting a Bible study. "Flee from sexual immorality. He who sins sexually sins against his own body". (1Cor.6:18). Sampson tore the city gate and placed it on top of a hill. This took place even after his body was defiled. From these three occasions we can see that holiness is not the criteria whereby God gives spiritual gifts to
people.


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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Nov 2005 3:31:51 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"A man boasting himself in a false gift is like clouds and wind, but no rain."

You may see me as a person with false gift and that is your personal opinion. I am more than willing to write back and forth about the subject of spiritual gifts but I am not willing to be uncouthed. Personal attack will diminish the forum.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 29 Nov 2005 9:31:16 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

I didn't see personal attack in Sambudhanoor's postings, even in what you placed in quotes.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Nov 2005 12:33:58 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshey,

"If it's not a language-language, why don't you give us your real name and other information for verification"

If you check the November 21 forum you will see my Email on the screen. That is more than most people are willing to do. I will place it on the net one more time "sharedconcept@hotmail.com".
I will be in Kerala beginning with the first week
of December and I am going to be there for a whole month and if your are there I will gladly meet you. In that way you will get a chance to verify and in the mean time this forum will give the readers the oppertunity to read/ponder what we have to say.

"John 3:8 has nothing to do with speaking in tongues,but has everything to do with being `born from above', or `born again' Why are you taking the verse out of it context to seemingly prove a point?"

"The wind blows wherever it pleases". That wind is the Holy Spirit. Can anyone tell the Spirit this far you go or that far you go?. The working of the Spirit has no limitation and He is sovereign. Regardless of denominational background,color,creed etc are of no barrier for Him. May I remind you that He not only convinces and convicts but He also gives gifts to believers(1Cor12:11). How can anyone limits the working of the Holy Spirit and say that John 3:8 is only about salvation?

"Who said only Pentacostals can speak in tongues,None on this forum said that."

The general perception about the Pentacostals is attached with "tongues". The main point I want to stress is very simple and that is God is touching people from all walks of life.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Nov 2005 2:03:24 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

It's obvious that God doesn't have grandchildren and believe me it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that. I am a believer and that faith is between me and God. In regards to being a fourth generation brethren, it's simply a figure of speech. I remember several people from our assembly using the very phrase
"fourth generation brethren" to condemn me by saying that I turned my back on very faith of the forefathers.

"All these indicate that the language you speak is not a tongue for the dification of unbelievers as we read in 1 corinthians 14,but it is a language-a tongue- to deceive and mislead the innocent and unsuspecting."

Brother Koshy,I am concerned about two things you wrote on that paragraph. First of all, 1 Corinthians 14 does not limit "tongues" with the edification of unbelievers only. As I wrote Sam
budhanoor, I will write it again. "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understand him; he utters mysteries with his spirit".(1Cor.14:2),He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself (1Cor.14:4), If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to HIMSELF and God (1 Cor.14:28).

We may and may not be able to agree upon the various interpretations attached with certain passages. When we face a situatin like that it is better to agree to disagree. This forum has been a blessing to so many people. Let the readers be able to decern. I am wondering about the latter part of that sentence you wrote about deceiving and misleading the innocent and unsuspecting. You have become the judge and juror. God did not appoint any of us for that purpose. Only the Lord has that privilege.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Nov 2005 10:00:12 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

Your postings to Sambudhanoor on 28 Nov 2005 indicates that you are holding a teaching on ‘gifts’ that is falsified by some using 1 Corinthians 14 and disregarding the context. This falsification of the teaching on the gifts was addressed before in similar threads. Please read them. If you have questions we could take it further on this thread. In the previous threads, I did discuss the gifts as its manifestations as we read in 1 Corinthians 11-16.

By the way, let me point this out: Use of pseudonym is not a sign of a receipient of the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit uses men and women who have the courage to ‘stand up’ for what they ought to believe. What one ought to believe is not a ‘concept’ that is to be ‘shared.’ It is the ‘revelation’ of God to man that is to be ‘proclaimed’ and ‘taught.’ That is, in Matthew 28 we read about ‘proclaim’ and ‘make disciples.’

Let me state that when it comes to the doctrines that are in the Word of God, there is no agreement to disagree, which is nothing but a compromise. That is for people with ears to hear and not for Overcomers. The Lord Jesus Christ wants Overcomers as stated in revelation 2 & 3.

Let me assure you that I have no interest in chasing people. If you go to Kerala, it is up to the elders to discern the false teachers. Otherwise, they are like the 'angels' in revelation 2 & 3.

You have not answered my four (4) questions that I placed on this thread, early this week, 28 Nov 2005 to be exact. Is refusal to answer questions related to what you wrote a sign of the gift that you received? If so, I rightly question its source.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Nov 2005 10:27:15 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

On 30 Nov 2005 you wrote, "We may and may not be able to agree upon the various interpretations attached with certain passages. When we face a situation like that it is better to agree to disagree. This forum has been a blessing to so many people. Let the readers be able to discern. I am wondering about the latter part of that sentence you wrote about deceiving and misleading the innocent and unsuspecting. You have become the judge and juror. God did not appoint any of us for that purpose. Only the Lord has that privilege."

Jude 4, it is written about certain men getting in unnoticed in local assemblies. In Revelation 2:2 our Lord Jesus Christ commends the 'angel' at the local assembly at Ephesus for trying or testing and thus judging those who tried to get in unnoticed at that assembly. Why are you protesting when one is doing what the Lord commends as good?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Nov 2005 6:05:17 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"Your Postings to Sambudhanoor on 28 Nov indicates that you are holding a teaching on 'gifts' that is falsified by some using 1 Corinthians 14 and disregarding the context".

On Nov 29, I did wrote a reply to Sambudhanoor and I am sure you also read that. 1 Corinthians 14 was primarily used as the text for that forum
and I was so disappointed with the feedback. Every time when there is disagreement then you seem to resort to others being wrong and this is
totally unacceptable.

"The Holy Spirit uses men and women who have the courage to 'stand up' for what they out to believe"

Brother, I have not been shy about proclaiming what I believe. In fact, the reason I expressed interest in seeing you in Kerala was to inquire about the possibility of a debate. In that way we both can come out in the open. Just by saying I am "George Koshy" doesn't mean any
thing. Come out into the open. I will even pay for the entire expense attached with the debate.

"What one ought to believe is not a 'concept' that is to be 'shared'"

On October 17 you asked the same quetion and I was able to answer you. I will repeat it again.
The "concept of faith" was used in relation to the awareness of a persons understanding towards what faith is all about and not faith itself.

"Let me state that when it comes to the doctrines
that are in the Word of God, there is no agreement to disagree, which is nothing but a compromise."

Recently I read a very good book written by F.F. Bruce and several things he said were contradicting J.N.Darby. Both of these men were considered to be outstanding Bible scholars and both of them were Brethrens. Listen,the Word of God remains the same forever and ever but the
interpretations varies.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Nov 2005 6:41:48 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy.

"Jude 4, it is written about certain men getting unnoticed in local assemblies. In Revelation 2:2 our Lord Jesus Christ commends the 'angel'at the local assembly at Ephesus for trying or testing and thus judging those who tried to get in unnoticed at that assembly. Why are you protesting when one is doing what the Lord commends as good?".

The essentials of Christian faith are salvation,
believers baptism, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus etc. Having said that,If/when there is a difference of openion arises about subjects like spiritul gifts, how can anyone label them as
erroneous?

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 7:52:13 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept - 1

In Acts & 1 Corinthians other tongue saying was in the time of Apostolic Era, it was the time of laying of the foundation of the Church. That time the written Word of God was not available, thus the other tongue was the means of self-edification.

Eph 2:20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Presently self-edification is:
- When we communicate with God, in prayers, thinking, groaning, murmuring or saying.
- When we meditate the Word of God.
- When we hear the Word of God through various means.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

After 1 Corinthians we are not seeing any other tongue saying in other epistles, that means this sign gift has ceased by the Apostolic era.

Jud 1:20-21 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, eagerly awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to everlasting life.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 7:53:23 AM Close
Contd……..2

What is praying in Holy Spirit:

Rom 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And He searching the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

When I look at different translations I see the word "GROANING"
KJV, MKJV, DARBY, NET BIBLE, ISV, ASV, VW EDITION, I believe, most of this are direct translation from Greek Text.

Even if groaning is miss-appropriate word, what is the difference, Holy Spirit is helping us to communicate with God, and this is called praying in Holy Spirit and it will edify us.

Other tongue was a sign gift to unbelievers.(This is not my words) This is written in the Word of God.

1Co 14:22 So that tongues are not a sign to those who believe, but to those who do not believe. But prophesying is not to those who do not believe, but to those who believe.

1Co 14:21 In the Law it is written: With men of other languages and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me, says the Lord.

First occurrence of other tongue in the bible was God's judgement to human race. (Gen.11:1-9)

Other reference is Isaiah's warning to Israel of the coming judgement.
Isa 28:11-12 for with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people.
To whom He said, This is the rest; cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing. Yet they were not willing to hear.

At the Pentecost other tongue was a sign to confirm the word of peter and a sign to the disciples of the coming of Holy Spirit.

At the Pentecost the Holy Spirit enabled the disciples to speak in real language unknown to them but understandable by the gathered people. (Acts 2)

1Co 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

This is the time of Apostolic era, this time supernatural sign gift was available, Paul advising them to use it properly.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 7:55:42 AM Close
Contd………..3

Quote of yours
" Unfortunately this very teaching came into the scene about a hundred years ago or so. It is called "Cessationalism". Benjamin Brekinridge Warfield, a professor at Princeton Seminary, popularized the argument that when the apostles died the gifts passed away with them."

Fortunately what happened to the other tongue after 1 Corinthians up to the last centuries, is the Holy Spirit not provided these gift to anybody for centuries. Modern other tongue saying started about 100 years back only.

Quote:
" Tongues-speaking is a subject of widespread Christian interest. Pentecostals and charismatics (which include members of mainline Protestant, Greek Orthodox, and Roman Catholic congregations) practice speaking in tongues as an evidence of spiritual renewal and devotion. Yet, it's not just a Christian experience. Many in the occult and in Eastern Mysticism, both in and out of the New Age movement, also speak in tongues."

In summary, the Bible doesn't recommend using tongues as a private prayer language. Besides, this practice, like all nonlanguage tongues-speaking, can be dangerous. It may lead a person to take something that is nothing more than an exciting psychological phenomenon as a genuine miracle and token of God's approval. Like transcendental meditation, mystical rituals, and other mind-emptying procedures, it may open the door to demonic influences. It can promote a false idea that there is an easy road to a rich prayer life and spiritual maturity. It can promote a false sense of unity with people who hold widely diverse beliefs on the essentials. And worst of all, it can easily degenerate into a series of "vain repetitions," the very thing against which Jesus issued a solemn warning. These considerations should be taken seriously by all who are inclined to believe that a private prayer language is something to be desired."

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 7:58:53 AM Close
Contd…………4

Heb 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with different kinds of miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Note the word "WAS CONFIRMED", it is said in the past tense.
This Gospel message was confirmed with signs and wonders and with different kinds of miracle and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will. This was happened in the apostolic era, when the written Word of God was not available.
(You find weakness in this Word of God, is any comment from Greek scholar P.C. Nelson about this portion).

I already explained about the greater gift, it is charity (Love).

Timothy was a inter-mediatory, inter-mediatory means one who stand between mediator and the receiver, he laid hand and prayed, as an identifier. I am very well aware of the biblical truth that there is only one mediator My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and I accepted this very fact 35 years back in my heart, when I become the Child of God.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ananias asking to Saul be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ananias was a disciple to Lord Jesus Christ, this is the time of the Church, beginning, with the signs and wonders and miracles the word of God was confirmed.

Act 9:10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, here I am, Lord.

Again the signs and wonders were available to other disciples also in order to confirm the Word of God (I said gift of Apostleship is not available now).

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 7:59:57 AM Close
Contd………5

Act 8:4-7 Therefore those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the Word.
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the many signs which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.

Presently people are seeking for miracles and wonders, for that they are going to Sabarimala, Velakanni, Potta and following the Charismatic leaders. They are seeking only physical and material blessings, they are not seeking the salvation of their soul. When Jesus Christ earthly ministry he rebuked the sign seekers this is what we wee in Mathew:

Mat 12:38-39 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we want to see a sign from you. But He answered and said to them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. And there shall be no sign given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

The greatest miracle is the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Quote:
"Did tongues cease before AD 100? They probably did. The testimony of the New Testament and church history strongly point in this direction. The writer of Hebrews used the past tense when he declared that God had confirmed the apostolic witness with "signs and wonders," "various miracles," and "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 2:1-4). Tongues-speaking would certainly come under the category of "signs and wonders." Moreover, church historians have found no evidence of tongues-speaking among the church fathers of the second century. The practice was present only among a few heretical followers of Montanus. And until recent times, tongues-speaking has been unknown among the vast majority of the Lord's people."

Corinthian believers, Sampson all are God's people even if they acted as carnals.
What about the unbelievers do the Holy Spirit provide the spiritual gift them also, pagans and cult members?, Not at all, this is the work of adversary.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 8:01:04 AM Close
Contd………….6

Joh 8:44 You are of the devil as your father, and the lusts of your father you purpose to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

But when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease.

1Co 13:8-10 Charity never fails. But if there are prophecies, they will be abolished; if tongues, they shall cease; if knowledge, it will be abolished. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease.

What is perfect thing? Is Jesus Christ is a thing?
It is used in a neuter word; it is referred to the Word of God.

Paul again says and now remains faith, hope & love.
1Co 13:13 And now remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

When we see Lord at the rapture faith and hope become reality and the love only remain forever.

2Ti 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed by God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

There are so many spiritual gifts are available for the glory of the God and edification of the Church and believers.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 8:02:22 AM Close
Contd………..7

When I posted the following words, my intention was not at all to attack you, the very truth from the scripture is applicable to me also.
Pro 25:14 A man boasting himself in a false gift is like clouds and wind, but no rain.

Personal experience will not make any doctrine at all.

I heard so many personal experiences
One brother belongs to Pentecost, who was in fellowship with us in the short period told me God showed him up to the end of the world.

Dinakaran claimed to be went the heaven and discussed so many things with Our Lord and come back.

There is a command to filled with Holy Spirit, we need to seek the filling of Holy Spirit, in order to get the boldness to proclaim the Word of God and produces and fruit of Spirit.

Eph 5:18-21 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is debauchery; but be filled by the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God.

Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled was shaken.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the Word of God with
boldness.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Great servant of God like Charles Finney, DL Moody, Spurgeon, Billy Graham, John Wesley, Willam Chapman, Billy Sunday, Gipsy Smith, Bob Jones, Charles E. Fuller, Robert Lee etc. were mightily used by God for the proclamation of the Gospel, they were filled with Holy Spirt but not uttered the other tongue.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 9:41:38 AM Close
Dear Shardconcept

As you are going to Kerala, if you are in and around Kottayam, Central Tranvacore Area, Kottayam Brethren Convention is Scheduled to begin on November 28. You can go and attend the bible classes there from 4 to 6 PM.

Subject of the classes are:
1. Holy Spirit and Salvation.
2. Holy Spirit and Anointing.
3. Holy Spirit Baptism.
4. Holy Spirit and other tongue.
5. Holy Spirit filling and Worship.

I believe Bro. M.M.Zacharia, Bro. John Kurian etc. may be taking the classes.

You can share the new concept with them, which has no basis in the Word of God and not practiced by the Brethren believers.

There is a book written by Bro. M.M.Zacharia, filling of Holy Spirit and other tongue, it is available in any biblical book shop, buy it and read it.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 10:13:20 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

Your recent posting as a reply to my posting shows that you are interested in confrontation, rather than edifying others. I should have quoted 1 Corinthians 11:16. But to a person who is not courageous enough to write on this forum using his own name, I will be glad to accept, if you will advance the money to the administrators of this forum. (I have not checked with the administrators of this forum on this. If they find this offensive, then you may have to find another way to fulfill your promise.) It will be at least $10,000 (it may be more, the exact cost will be placed in finalizing the process) plus my fees and I expect that in US currency. I have a fee, because I am challenged by a man without a name. I accept your challenge. You name the place in India.

I have seen this tendecny from people who are posting on this forum from India. They are eager to issue challenges to others when they do not have answers to questions posed to them.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 12:29:14 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,' Part-1

Having accepted 'shareconcept's' challenge, let me provide some serious matter to consider:

On 1 Dec 2005 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote: “Brother, I have not been shy about proclaiming what I believe. In fact, the reason I expressed interest in seeing you in Kerala was to inquire about the possibility of a debate. In that way we both can come out in the open. Just by saying I am ‘George Koshy’ doesn't mean any thing. Come out into the open. I will even pay for the entire expense attached with the debate.” You may claim that you are not shy to proclaim what you believe, but you are surely shy about proclaiming your name. Peter, Paul, Cornelius, and so on, spoke in tongues, and they did not do it using a pseudonym. A pseudonym is used by people to avoid being known by others that they hold certain views that are contrary to what should be. Those who are empowered by the Holy Spirit, especially those who claim to have the gift of tongue, should not be shy to identify themselves to others. When they are shy, then they are as good as to be pseudo-religious. To cover-up their lack of courage, they resort to challenge others, thinking that such challenge shows their courage. On the contrary, the knights of old always wore mask in combat. It was not to be wounded, because the fight had only one purpose and that was to get injured and die. Then, why did they wear mask? I fail to conceive an answer. May be they don’t want the spectators to know who they were. Especially when they were wounded. You wear a mask of pseudonym, and you challenge others. Arte you traveling in Kerala under your pseudonym, “sharedconcept?” Interesting comparison!

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 12:31:55 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,' Part-2

Any one could know a lot about me and it is very easy. There were write-ups about me in Indian papers in 1997-8. My name is ‘George P. Koshy.’

On 1 Dec 2005 you wrote, “On October 17 you asked the same quetion and I was able to answer you. I will repeat it again. The ‘concept of faith’ was used in relation to the awareness of a persons understanding towards what faith is all about and not faith itself.” Since you have differentiated between ‘faith’ and ‘awareness of faith,’ the general use of the word ‘concept,’ is to indicate “a notion or thought.” It is from man and stands for man’s ability to conceive. I wish to remind you that doctrine is what the Holy Spirit teaches as it was given from the lips of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14-16). No man has the authority to change that. Man has a responsibility to obey them. It is not a ‘concept’ that could be changed by improved knowledge and axioms of logic. The doctrines that are given in the Bible are beyond man’s authority. We did not receive them as concepts of man for man to change.

On Dec 2005 you wrote, “Recently I read a very good book written by F.F. Bruce and several things he said were contradicting J.N.Darby. Both of these men were considered to be outstanding Bible scholars and both of them were Brethrens. Listen,the Word of God remains the same forever and ever but the interpretations varies.” Let me listen, as you asked. Please tell me the doctrine in question on which J.N. Darby and F.F. Bruce contradicted each other. I am asking you to provide verifiable references. You are confounding between ‘scriptural doctrines (teachings)’ and ‘interpretation of scriptures.’ It is the interpretation of the doctrines that introduces errors in its exposition. Lord Jesus Christ addressed this when He asked the Pharisees, “What is it written in the law? How readest thou?” (Luke 10:26)...

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 12:34:04 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,' Part-3

...There is no reason or excuse to agree to disagree on doctrines. This agreement is the pure manifestation of how men want to read what is written in the Word of God.

Let me clarify about interpretation of scriptures. On the General Forum, John Miller started a thread, titled “the Cross,” and many contributed to that thread. Many contributed their interpretations of what happened on the cross. They are not providing the doctrine. When it comes to the doctrine of the cross, there is no room for disagreement. None of them are doing that. The different interpretations on what happened on the cross are delighting the hearts of believers. On the other hand, Pharisees did not have any excuse for holding on to their false interpretations by claiming BETH-KOL.

Regarding your interpretation on the ‘gifts’ you are wrong and our brother in Christ, Sambudhanoor, eloquently pointed it out. I told you that we couldn’t agree to disagree on the doctrine of ‘The gifts of The Holy Spirit.’ If you want to claim that your interpretations supersede the doctrines, then you are stating who you are? Your postings on 1 Corinthians 14 are erroneous in its content. Challenging me for a debate will not make your errors right. If you are interested, we could discuss about the errors of your interpretation on another thread, titled “First Corinthians 14.” If you are interested please start a thread with that name and tell us your real name. Telling the real name is the best way to tell others that you are a brother/sister and they are your brothers and sisters and you trust them. Otherwise, it is an indication that you want to create a barrier between you and others like me.

Well, your idea of a debate is replaced by an idea of a dialogue, an honest and sincere one. If you think it is better to have a dialogue, please start the thread and I will post the rules of conduct.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 3:45:04 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

Thank you for your response and I will indeed reply. As I mentioned to George P. Koshy, I will be in India for the entire month of December and after I return we will rsume the forum.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2005 3:51:10 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

I am sorry I won't be able to response until I come back from India which would be a month from now.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Dec 2005 8:58:24 AM Close
Dear bejoyaranmula,

You started this thred stating, "My friends are fighting with me because i dont say the other tounges.they say that ur not a beleaver if ur not saying it.what is the openion abt this?"

Did you get the answer to help you in your walk? If not I will be glad to help you in a dialogue format. For that I need your help. Please rewrite your original statement using proper English words. In using a language we should use its words, grammar, and syntax. We are not to use our own made-up words. We are not perfect in our grammar and syntax. I get confused, when I use the codes in your statement. I place wrong words in place of your codes to understand its meaning.

Therefore, if you are interested to participate in a dialogue, please de-code your statement. Ohtewise, I will assume that you are not interested. In a dialogue, I expect you to be participating, actively.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : bejoyaranmula   View Profile   Since : 21 Dec 2005 7:52:00 AM Close
Yes i am indeed am interested in this topic dear Mr.George P. Koshy.So here it is as de-coded.My friends are fighting with me because i dont say in other tounges.they say that "you are not a beleaver if you are not saying it".what is the openion about this?
I greatly am influenced by the things you have suggetted in this topic. I am expecting to hear more about this topic. May God Bless you all
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 Dec 2005 8:23:12 AM Close
Dear Bejoyaranmula,

Thank you for your reply. I am placing your last posting in the Moderated Forum for further discussion. This I do to reduce attempts by a few to hijack the discussion with unrelevant postings. If you are registered in the Moderated Forum please use it. If not, please register. I will seee you there.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 22 Dec 2005 1:21:44 PM Close
Dear Bejoyaranmula,

I have a few questions before starting to give the answers. They are posted in the Moderated Forum. Please answer them, there and not here. If you need help to register in the moderated forum, please see the posting from brohter John Miller to 'bethel,' under the thread 'Law & Grace.' It is easy to do.

See you in the Moderated Forum.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2006 9:01:43 AM Close
Dear Bejoyaranmula,

I have posted a reply to your question on the Moderated Forum. If you need more help, please ask. I will try to answer.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 9:01:14 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"Let me state that when it comes to the doctrines that are in the Word of GOd, there is no agreement to disagree, which is nothing but a compromise."

Many people believe that since they have a revelation on one or several matters it naturally must follow that they are correct in all matters or that they have the complete revelation.They shut the door by this act instead of leaving it open. So many of God's revelations are developmental and not final. God
who knows the end from the beginning makes known His plan progressively. However the tendency of man is to put the temporay in a permanent form, to build walls around one piece of revelation as if it were the whole.

The Scripures also tells us that "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval" (1cor.11:19). The danger attached with the whole thing is so startling. I hope you won't come across like "My way or the highway'. That is a very dangerous position to be in.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 9:14:05 PM Close
Dear George. P. Koshy,
Let me assure you that I have no interest in
chasing people. If you go to Kerala, it is up to the elders to discern the falsoe teachers. Otherwise, they are like the 'angels' in Revelation 2&3".

I visited Kerala and spent exactly 25 days there. I also spoke at the assembley I was born and brought up under. Just about everybody there knows that I speak in tongues and also almost half of the members have spouses that came from the Pentacostal background. By the way, this assembly has close to 1oo families. I don't know what you mean by false teachers. Wake up man.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 9:41:39 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,
"In Acts & 1 Corinthians other tongue saying was in the time of Apostolic Era, it was the time of laying of the foundation of the Church. That time the written Word of God was not available, thus the other tongue was the means of self-edification".

In 1 corinthians 14:39, Paul said "Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and DO NOT FORBID
SPEAKING IN TONGUES". All this talk about it was needed for that period before the written word was not available doesn't have an iota of scriptural backing. What ever is mentioned in the Word of God was not only for the Apostolic age but also for us. Someone can take 1 Corinthians 13 (love chapter) and tell others that it was written specifically for the Corinthian church since they went through all sorts of problems. We all know that it isn't so.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 10:06:15 PM Close
Dear Sambudanoor,

"After 1 Corinthians we are not seeing any other tongue saying in other epistles, that means this sign gift has ceased by the Aostolic era"

What about Ephesian 6:18 & Jude:20 ?. Praying in spirit means praying in tongues. It is the Word of God. (1Cor.14:14). "For if I pray in tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful". This is the only literal verse that gives a clear cut
explanation of that verse. If you can give me an another verse (literal) pertaining to the true meaning of 1 Cor.14:14, then I would be so greatful.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 10:13:19 PM Close
Daer Sambudhanoor,

"Other tongue was a sign to unbelievers. (This is not my words) This is the written Word of God"

1 Corinthians 14:22 tells us that tongues are a sign for unbelievers and also 1 Corinthians 14:27 gives us guidence as to how this gift could be excersised in the church. Both of those
verses are Word of God.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 10:17:48 PM Close
Dear sambudhanoor,

"This is the time of Apostolic era, this time supernatural sign gift was available, Paul advising them to use it properly".

The supernatural power of God is available to all of us. Why would you want to limit it with the time of Apostolic era?.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 10:30:01 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"And worst of all, it can easily degenerate into a series of "vain repetitions" the very thing against which Jesus issued a solemn warning"

For centuries men and women of God has been repeating "Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord,
Hallelujah, Hallelujah". Even the angels of God, day and night they nevr stop saying:
"Holy,Holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and is,and is to come". It sounds like they are all repeating the same monologue again and again.
Scriptures does't say that it is "vain repetitions".

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 10:53:02 PM Close
Dear sambushanoor,

"Note the word "WAS CONFIRMED, it said in the past tense"

The question that I want to ask you is a simple one. Is there a continuity with those supernatural workings of God?. Jesus said
" I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. he will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father" (John 14:12)

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 11:18:24 PM Close
Dear sambudanoor,

"When Jesus Christ earthly ministry he rebuked the sign seekers this is what we see in Mathew"
An evil and adulterous generation seek after a sign. And there shall be no given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah " Mt12:38-39.

On the last forum I already explained why Jesus
rebuked the pharasees on Mathew 12 and mathew 16.
I will repeat it again, On both of those occasions prior to the rebukes, he performed tremendous miracles. Even after that, they still asked for a sign. There intention was not right.
That is why he rebuked them for asking a sign.

Jesus also said in John 10:38 "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that
the Father is in me and I in the Father.

Nicodemas reveals the reason for the faith.

"Rabbi, we know that you are teacher come from God; for no one can do these sgns that you do unless God is with him." (John 3:2)

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 11:34:17 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"what is perfect thing? Is Jesus Christ is a thing?."

I don't know about the version you were quoting from. I looked into the "King James version" and it says, "That which is perfect is come,then that which is part shall be done away."

It couldn't have been the Word of God. If it was
then we would be knowing all mysteries. It is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 11:44:32 PM Close
Dear sambudhanoor,

"Pro 25:14 A man boasting himself in a false gift is like clouds and wind, but no rain. Personal experience will not make any doctrine at all. I heard so many personal experiences One brother belongs to Pentecost, who was in fellowship with us in the short period told me God showed him up to the end of the world".

I don't recall sharing a outrageous personal experience. All I said was that I speak in tongues. In your eyes it seems like it is a falls gift. You are free to express your openion. That does not mean that others have accept what you say. Millions of people all over the world do speak in tongues. Thank God for sambudhanoor. you are a gift to the body of Christ.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 12 Jan 2006 11:57:27 PM Close
Dear sambudanoor,

"Great servant of God like cCharles Finney, DL Moody, Spurgeon, Billy Graham, John Wesley, William Chapman, Billy Sunday, Gipsy Smith, Bob Jones, Charles E. Fuller, Robert Lee etc. were mightly used by God for the proclamation of the Gospel, they were filled with the Hooly Spirit but not uttered the other tongue."

God is impartial. God is not constrained by tradition. Today in Communist China alone, close to 100000 people are coming into the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and majority of them do speak in tongues.

"For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not able to stop these men;you will only find yourself fighting against God" (Acts 5:38-39).

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 12:20:53 AM Close
Dear sambudhanoor,

"I believe Bro. M.M. Zacharia, Bro. John Kurian etc. may be taking the classes. You can share the new concept with them, which has no basis in the Word of God and not practiced by the Brethren believers. There is a book written by M.M.Zacharia, filling of Holy Spirit and other tongue, it is available in any biblical book shop, buy it and read it"

We have known M.M.Zacharia since the mid 1940's.
He was a student of my grand father at the Bible school at Kumbanad. I believe we have known him much earlier than you. I read his book about the
Holy Spirit and I felt pity towards him. The last time I saw him, I also gave him a copy of the book "Surprised by the power of the Holy Spirit" written by a former Dallas Theological Seminary professor, Jack Deere.

Incidentally, J.C.Dev wrote 13 questions to M.M.Zacharia about the Holy Spirit and I happend to see those questions. I believe it has been over six months and according to M.M.Zacharia, he is still in the process of answering them. We just have to have patience and wait for it. I believe that book I mentioned would greatly benefit you. (Surprised by the power of the Holy Spirit)

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 12:30:06 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"But you are surely shy about proclaiming your name. But a person who is not courageous enough to write on this forum using his own name, I will be glad to accept"

The author of the epistle to the "HEBREWS" did not reveal his true identiy and I suppose you have already written him of as a person who is lacking in courage.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 12:47:58 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"It will be at least $10,000 (it may be more, the exact cost will be placed in finalizing the process) plus my fees and I expect that in US currency. I have a fee, because I am challenged by a man without a name. i accepyt your challenge. You name the place in India."

"What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it FREE OF CHARGE, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it. (1cor.9:18)

"Was it sin for me lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you FREE OF CHARGE" (2Cor.11:7)


By the way you talked about having to come up with $10000.00. Please bring your check book and I will do the same and then we will be able to see who has $10000.00 and who doesn't.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 12:57:05 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

" I have seen this tendency from people who are posting on this forum from India. They are eager to issue a challenges to others when they do not have answers to questions posed to them."

How do you know that I am living in India?. You missed it by mile. All this talk about not having answers to the questions posed to them, What do you think I have been doing? If anything, I am frustrated about having to anwer the same question time after time without seeing any kind of changes. It seems like you both are set in your ways. Don't forget one thing. I have to answer two people at the same time. Even though it is time consuming for me, I will still go along with it.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 1:19:24 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"On the contrary, the knights of old always wore mask in combat. It was not to be wounded, because the fight had only one purpose and that was to get injured and die. Then, why do they wear mask? May be they don't want the spectators to know who they were. Especially when they were wounded."

Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith
God has given you. (Romans 12:3)

The forum we are involved in is not a dual. This shows the frame of your mind. It is an oppertunity to answer a subject that is widely
debated (Spiritual Gifts). We can express our openion/understanding etc towards that forum and nothing more or nothing less. Oh what an ego. Your ego is wide as a football field.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 9:03:23 AM Close
'sharedconcept,'

Previously I asked you to start another thread under the name, "1 Corinthians 14," to discusses 1 Corinthians 14. It will be helpful, if you are sincere in discussing.

About "Other tongue," it is not found in the scriptures. False teachers, similar to the Old Testament false prophets, taught such an alien concept among certain Christians and there are a few who still teach that. If you are one of them, it is your responsibility to provide scriptural references that tells about your "Other Tongue." First Corinthians 14 does not say anything about your "Other Tongue."

Which one of your teachers used pseudonym to propagate the teaching of "Other Tongue," as you do? You are like the knights of the past, always wearing a mask. At the same time, insisting that you are standing for the true God guided by His Spirit is a little difficult to believe. None of those who belong to the God almighty wears a mask, a pseudonym, unless he has something to cover up, ashamed off, or afraid off. As long as you are using a pseudonym to propagate an unscriptural teaching, you are a knight in rusted armour.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 2:15:35 PM Close
Dear Readers & 'sharedconcept,' - Part-1

On 12 Jan 2006 21:01:14, ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “God who knows the end from the beginning makes known His plan progressively. However the tendency of man is to put the temporary in a permanent form, to build walls around one piece of revelation as if it were the whole.”

Those who falsely claim about the ability to speak in tongues usually hold the teaching that God still reveals his mind through them. Thus they equate themselves with the Apostles and Prophets of the early years of Christianity. The above quoted sentences from ‘sharedconcept’ are an example of such teachings. He/she claims to posses the ability to speak in tongues and now states about the tendency of man to consider, that which is temporary as the whole. After that statement, he/she quoted 1 Cor. 11:19. As usual, for the proponents of the unscriptural teaching of speaking in tongues, the quote is partial and not in full. Let me quote the full verse, “For there must be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you.” By having this discussion about the sects, groups of people with different ideas, and their teaching clearly help to manifest who are ob the Lord’s side. The one who claim that the word of God is not complete is not on the side of God. In 1 Timothy 3:17 we read, “…that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good works.” Those who teach that the Scripture is not complete and we need to rely on fresh revelation from those who speak in tongues do imply, directly or indirectly, that the Scripture is incomplete or imperfect. Like Mary Baker Eddy of Christian Scientists, Smith of Mormons, … they ask us to accept the idea that they have a new revelation. As we read in 1 Cor. 11:19 they manifest themselves, not with Apostle Paul. In 1 Corinthians he taught the believers in Corinth about the error of giving importance to speaking in tongues, when he was the one who laid the foundation along with other Apostles and Prophets...

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 2:18:18 PM Close
Dear Readers & 'sharedconcept,' - Part-2

...There is no other foundation. Those who teach that the word of God is imperfect because it is incomplete, like the ‘sharedconcept,’ do teach a different doctrine that is not found in the word of God.

On 12 Jan 2006 21:14:05 ‘sharedconcept’ also wrote, “I don’t know what do you mean by false teachers.” It is very difficult for those who claim to speak in tongues to come to the realization that they are false teachers who propagates unscriptural doctrines.

On 12 Jan 2006 22:06:15 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote to Sambudhanoor, “What about Ephesians 6:18 & Jude 20? Praying in spirit means praying in tongues. It is the Word of God. “ Those who teach the doctrine of speaking in tongue use two methods when quoting the scriptures: first, they quote it partially giving the impression that what they say is from the word of God; second, they are not ashamed to quote the scriptures out of context. We saw the partial quote from 1 Cor. 11:19 on ‘sharedconcept’s’ posting of 12 Jan 2006 21:01:14. Now we see how ‘sharedconcept’ makes the out of context quote from the scriptures. They prefer to do it by referring to it. On this posting ‘sharedconcept’ made two references without quoting the verses and they are, Ephesians 6:18 and Jude 20. Therefore let me quote them: “Praying at all seasons, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching unto this very thing with all perseverance and supplication for all saints…” (Eph. 6:18). Though ‘sharedconcept’ implied that this verse is in favor of speaking or praying in tongues, where do we read this idea in this verse? Actually, this portion is related to putting on the panoply of God by Christians. Let us also look into Jude 20, “But ye, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” In this case, I quoted Jude 20 and 21...

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 2:20:50 PM Close
Dear Readers & 'sharedconcept,' - Part-3

...I still wonder about speaking or praying in tongues in Jude 20.

On 12 Jan 2006 22:17:48 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote to Sambudhanoor, “The supernatural power of God is available to all of us. Why would you want to limit it with the time of Apostolic era?” It is true that Sambudhanoor used the term “supernatural sign gift” in his posting; he never used or referred to speaking in tongue as “supernatural power.” There is only one Power that can be termed as “supernatural power,” if I use that term and that is the Person of the Holy Spirit. I use it with reverence. I use it only because our Lord Jesus Christ said in Acts 1:8, “But ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” ‘Sharedconcept’ who speaks in tongue now equate it with the Holy Spirit. This kind of distortion and falsification of truth is part of those who claim to be speakers in tongues. They don’t want to limit it to the Apostolic era. Why? They want to elevate themselves to the Level of the Apostles and are eager to spread the false doctrine by equating it to the Holy Spirit.

On 12 Jan 2006 22:30:01 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “’And worst of all, it can easily degenerate into a series of *vain repetitions* the very thing against which Jesus issued a solemn warning’ For centuries men and women of God has been repeating *Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord, Hallelujah, Hallelujah*. Even the angels of God, day and night they never stop saying: *Holy,Holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and is,and is to come.* It sounds like they are all repeating the same monologue again and again Scriptures does't say that it is "vain repetitions". --- It was the Lord who taught in Matthew 6:7 about praying. We read, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as those who are of the nations: for they think they shall be heard through their much speaking.”...

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 2:24:22 PM Close
Dear Readers & 'sharedconcept,' - Part-4

...When men say “Praise the Lord,” or “Hallelujah” do they know that the phrase ‘praise the Lord’ is the translation of the Hebrew word, ‘Hallelujah?’ It is. Therefore, it becomes a sort of vain repetition. May be this is a form of speaking in tongues, using vain repetition. To those who don’t know English it is translated to the Hebrew, “Hallelujah,” or vis-à-vis.

On 12 Jan 2006 22:53:02 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote to Sambudhanoor, “The question that I want to ask you is a simple one. Is there a continuity with those supernatural workings of God? Jesus said ‘I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. he will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father’ (John 14:12)” --- Does ‘sharedconcept’ teach that the Lord Jesus Christ didn’t have the ability to speak in tongues? He spoke the Greek. In John 14:12 our Lord was speaking about the conversion of many in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the end of the earth as He spoke in Acts 1:8. Does ‘sharedconcept’ imply that he has something that even the Lord Jesus didn’t have, a ‘supernatural power?’

On 12 Jan 2006 23:18:24 ‘sharedconcept’ quoted Matthew 12:38-39 without realizing that He was giving them a sign as they asked. It was about his death, burial, and resurrection. He/she quoted John 10:38, “But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father.” --- There are errors in this translation. The correct translation is, “But if I do, even if ye believe not me, believe the works, that ye may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in him.” In ‘sharedconcept’s’ quote, the word ‘ERGOIS’ (= work, deed, business) is translated as “miracles.” The word for ‘miracle’ is SEMEION (= a sign). You could see the difference in these words and their meanings...

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 2:26:33 PM Close
Dear Readers & 'sharedconcept,' - Part-5

...The word for “believe’ is ‘PISTEUO’ (= to adhere, trust, rely on) and it appears in John 10:38 three (3) times. In ‘sharedconcept’s’ quote, it was translated as “believe’ in two places, but on the third place, it is translated as, “understand.” The Greek word GINOSKW (= to know, be cognizant of) is translated as “understood’ in many places in KJV, including John 8:27, 43, 10:6. Using a non-literal translation, as used by ‘shared concept,’ could lead us into more and more errors. We should be aware about this folly. From these verses as referred to or quoted by ‘sharedconcept’ we come to realize that our Lord Jesus Christ was also rebuking the 21st century sign seekers and performers when He uttered those words. They are using a translation that is inconsistent to establish their theory and false doctrine.

On 12 Jan 2006 23:34:17 ‘sharedconcept wrote to Sambudhanoor, “I don't know about the version you were quoting from. I looked into the "King James version" and it says, ‘That which is perfect is come,then that which is part shall be done away.’
It couldn't have been the Word of God. If it was then we would be knowing all mysteries. It is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.” --- It is the word of God, the perfected or completed scriptures – the 66 books of the Bible. Even in heaven there are things that are mystery to the angels. But for us, what ever we need to know is given in these 66 books, and thus it is perfected. We don’t need to know anything that is not revealed in it. Unfortunately, those who speak in tongues cannot accept the scriptures as completed by the will of God and also by the Holy Spirit. If they do, then their feeling of spiritual superiority will be dashed to pieces. So they refuse to accept what is revealed in 1 Corinthians 13.

(To be cont. Part-6)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 2:28:48 PM Close
Dear Readers & 'sharedconcept,' - Part-6

On 12 Jan 2006 23:44:32 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote to Sambudhanoor, “Thank God for sambudhanoor. you are a gift to the body of Christ.” --- I ask ‘sharedconcept’ where does he read that believers are “a gift to the body of Christ?” He/she made ‘speaking in tongue’ equal to the Holy Spirit. Now he/she makes a believer a gift to the Body of Christ, the Assembly or Church.

On 13 Jan 2006 00:30:06 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “The author of the epistle to the "HEBREWS" did not reveal his true identity and I suppose you have already written him of as a person who is lacking in courage.” --- The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews did not give his name in the epistle. At the same time he did not write that epistle using a pseudonym, a false name, as ‘sharedconcept.’

On 13 Jan 2006 00:47:58 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “By the way you talked about having to come up with $10000.00. Please bring your check book and I will do the same and then we will be able to see who has $10000.00 and who doesn't.” --- Is this the same person who challenged me for a debate in India with the offer to bear all expenses? Now, he wants me to give him money for expenses. From my part, I asked him to start a new thread titled, “1 Corinthians 14,” to have a dialog on speaking in tongues. He has not done it, but pretends that he never issued a challenge or offered to pay for the expenses. This is a common characteristic of those who try to establish doctrines on the power of rhetoric.

After reading ‘sharedconcepts’s’ postings, especially of 12 & 13 Jan 2006, I come to realize certain things. It has opened my eyes to see the reality of the feature “MOOTHACHAYANUM ANUJANMARUM” in Suviseshakan. More than once I wrote to its editors about the common idea presented in that feature. I asked, why it is the elder or overseer is the one who is at fault? Why the ANUJANMAR are not at fault?...

(To be cont. Part-7)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2006 2:31:07 PM Close
Dear Readers & 'sharedconcept,' - Part-7

...After reading ‘sharedconcept’s’ posting, I came to realize that many of the overseers, those who are appointed by the Holy Spirit, are not faithful to what they are entrusted by God. Instead of feeding the sheep, they are interested to receive and propagate ear-itching sermons from people like ‘sharedconcept.’ When are the overseers going to do what they are entrusted with being faithful to God? I thank our Father and the Son that through the help of the Holy Spirit many of the overseers are doing their duty faithfully, and only a few are sleeping on the job. There is another possibility. Who knows that ‘sharedconcept’ is telling the truth? He considers the doctrines in the scriptures as ‘concepts’ that are to be ‘shared’ and not the revelation of God’s mind.

Finally, let me close with another observation. In an earlier posting, ‘sharedconcept’ offered a compromise. It was that he and I should agree to disagree, which I promptly rejected. My position is that there is nothing to agree to disagree when it is regarding the doctrines. ‘sharedconcept’s’ position is an indication that he is not sure about what he holds about speaking in tongue, as scriptural. Let us look into it in another manner: If it was agreeable for him to disagree, then why is he arguing and challenging me for a debate? It shows that he doesn’t mean what he says.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 17 Jan 2006 10:17:48 AM Close
it would have been nice if sharedconcept atleast reveals the gender if not the name so that we who want to address can either use dear bro or dear sister
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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 11:18:29 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

About "other tongues" it is not found in the scriptures. False teachers, similar to the Old Testament false prohets, taught such alien concept among certain Christians and there are a few who still teach that"

On November 14, 2005, "bejoyaranmula" started out a thread under the name "Other tongue" and we have been writing back and forth under the same thread. I have never written about "other tongue" in any of my writings.

False accusation is a serious offense.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 11:33:16 AM Close
Dear George P. koshy,

"None of those who belong to the God almighty wears a mask, a pseudonym, unless he has something to cover up, ashamed off, or afraid off. As long as you are using a pseudonym to propagate a unscriptuaral teaching, you are a knight in rusted armour".

1 Kings, 2 Kings and the epistle of Hebrews, all three of these books do not have the authors name
mentioned in the salutations. Even though none of us will never ever be able to identify the authors of theses books, we still consider these books to be the true Word of God. Do you brother?.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 1:45:29 PM Close
Dear George P. koshy,

"Those who falsely claim about the ability to speak in tongues usually hold the teaching that God still reveals his mind through them."

"If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most
three-should speak, one at at time, and someone
must interpret." (1Cor.14:27)

On the day of Pentacost, the 120 also spoke in tongues. "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the SPIRIT ENABLED them. It was the Holy Spirit that enabled them to speak in tongues and that same Holy Spirit is still speaking through believers. In 1 Cor.14:27 and 14:5 we see the conditions given to a person as to how this gift could be excercised in a church setting.

I kept hearing about "falsely claiming" the ability to speak in tongues. It is false to you but as I mentioned in my last writings, millions and millions of people all over the world do speak in tongues.

"Thus they equate themselves with Apostles and prophets of the early years of Christianity".

In Acts 19:6, believers at Ephesus spoke intongues.
In Acts 10:46,believers at Cornelius house spoke in tongues.
In 1Cor.14, We see the church at Corinth also excercised this gift (tongues).

From these passages I just mentioned, it has been proven without a shadow of doubt that not only apostles and prophets but also ordinary saints spoke in tongues.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 2:12:00 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"Those who teach that Scripture is not complete and we need to rely on fresh revelation from those who speak in tongues do imply, directly or indirectly, that the Scripture is incomplete and we need to rely on fresh revelation from those who speak in tongues do imply, directly, or indirectly, that the Scripture is incomplete or imperfect."

There is 66 books in the Word of God and the Bible gives clear cut warning about adding or deleting to the already written Word (Rev.22:18-19). Who said that the Scripture is incomplete or imperfect?. These are all your comments and not mine. 1Cor.14:26 is considered to be the signature verse pertaining to the New Testament worship service. "What then shall we say brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn,or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the chruch."

Just because God revealed something through a believer, does that mean that it has to be added to the already written word?. These are all speculations coming out of those who are bound by the clutches of man made doctrines.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 2:22:22 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"In 1 Corinthians he (Paul) taught the believers in Corinth about the error of giving importance to speaking in tongues."

You are limiting the scope of Pauls teaching in 1 corinthians with the topic of tongues. ORDERLY WORSIP is the main theme of 1 Corinthians 14 and
tongues, interpretations of tongues, prophesey ect.are all part of the big picture.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 2:54:04 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"There is no other foundation. those who teach that the word of God is imperfect because it is incomplete, like the 'sharedconcept', do teach a different doctrine that is not found in the word of God."

We have an old saying in malayalam that goes like this "EZHUTHAPPURAM WHAAYEKKUKA". The above statement came out of Geoge Koshy's wild imagination. Please do not put words into anyones mouth. Where did I say that the word of God is incomplete or imperfect?.

"It is very difficult for those who claim to speak in tongues to come to realization that they are false teachers who propagates unscriptural doctrines".

I do speak in tongues and as I mentioned before, it is a pivotal part of my prayer life. It's unfortunate that you have some sort of a personal vendetta against those who speak in tongues. The truth has always been there but God has to remove the veil from the eyes. Then only we will be able to see the way we should see.


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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 3:55:41 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshoy,

"Sharedconcept who speaks in tongues now equate it with the Holy Spirit. This kind of distortion and falsification of truth is part of those who claim to speaks in tongues. They don't want to limit it to the Apostoic era. Why?. They want to elevate themselves to the level of the Apostles and are eager to spread the false doctrine by equating it to the Holy Spirit."

Tongues is one of the gifts given to the body by the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12:11). That is the word of God. Every Spiritual gift given to the body is valid until the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. How can all those who speak in tongues could be elevating themselves to the level of the Apostles?. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit. You are pulling the wool over the eyes of the innocent readers by accusing others about elvating themsleves to the level of Apostles. If you continue to falsify about others, then what is the point of continuing with this forum?. Please be responsible about waht you write.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 4:38:32 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"It was the Lord who taught in Mathew 6:7 about praying. We ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as those who are of the nation: for they think they shall be heard through their much speaking".

The Lord Jesus in Mathew 6:7 referred to hypocrites and pagans. They went out of their way to draw attention on themseleves and he literally rebuked them for that. What does that has to do with people who speak in tongues?.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 5:19:36 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"May be this is a form of speaking in tongues, using vain repetition."

According to Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and devine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." If we open our eyes and carefully look at the universe, there would be countless reasons to thank the Lord. People who are grateful towards the Lord for his provisions,care concern etc.are all so thankful towards Him. People tend to say "Thank you Jesus, Praise you Jesus, Glory to God". Usually it is more than once. I myself tend to thank Him so many times a day. According to George P. Koshy, it is vain repetitions. Personally, we should be concerned about what God thinks of us than mere men. You still didn't answer my question about angles worshipping God saying the same words in a repetitious manner. "Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighy, who was, and is, and is to come." Do you still consider that to be vain repetition?.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 19 Jan 2006 5:46:02 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"In John 14:12 our Lord was speaking about the conversion of many in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the end of the earth as he spoke in Acts 1:8."

John 14:12 has a universal impact. In Acts of Apostles chapter 4:4, we see 5000 people getting saved at one time. Today a typical Billy Graham
crusade will draw thousands of people. In some of the crusades he conducted abroad, it has been estimated that over 100000 came into the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Your analogy about limiting it to merely the local areas is not a good one.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 11:25:52 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"They are using a translation that is inconsistent to establish their theory and false doctrine"

New Internatinal Version (N.I.V) is a good translation. One hundred Bible scholars from
various different denominations were involved in the project. Apparetnly George P. Koshy doesn't agree with them.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 12:25:48 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"It is the word of God (1Cor:13:10), the perfected or completed scriptures---the 66 books, and thus is perfected. we don't need to know anything that is not revealed in it. Unfortunately, those who speak in tonggues cannot accept the scriptures as completed by the will of God and also by the Holy Spirit. If they do, then their feeling of spiritual superiority will be dashed to pieces. So they refuse to accept what is revealed in 1 Corinthians 13."

1 Corinthians 13:10 is not referring to the word of God. It is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes the impefect disappears." (1 cor.13:9-10). Even with the completed canon, we can only prophesy in part. The big picture is still held by the Lord. When He comes back all the mysterious will be revealed. "For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea" (Is.11:9). Br.George P. Koshy, the verse I just recited, has it already happend, or is that about the future?. Now, all this talk about feeling superior, Why would anyone wants to think like that?. Spiritual gifts are given to the body by the third person of the Trinity (1Cor.12:11). In terms of feeling superior, that is your opinion.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 12:45:23 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"Thank God for sambudhanoor. You are gift to the body of Christ."

You are living in the North American continent and tell me something, you have never heard of a figure of speech like that?. It is so obvious that people can never be a spiritual gift to the body of Christ. That comment had a twinge of sarcasm in it and I apologize for that.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 2:24:55 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews did not give his name in the epistle. At the same time he did not write the epistle using a pseudonym, a false name, as 'sharedconcept'".

What makes you think that it is a false name?.
Sharedconcept is the name I use in the net. You don't have any problems with the unknown author of Hebrews but it seems like I seem to get underneath your skin.

"The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth" (2John:1). Even the best Bible scholars could not agree as to whom the apostle John is writing to. It is the word of God and we are not so sure about the true meaning behind that statement, George P. Koshy doesn't have any problems with that. He will still accept that. What a double standard. Such hypocrisy should never be tolerated.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 2:55:59 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"Is this the same person who challenged me for a debate in India with the offer to bear all expenses? now, he wants me to give him money for expenses. this is a common characteristic of those who try to establish doctrines on the power of rhetoric".

After I challenged you for a debate, I did offer to pay the expenses and I am not denying that.
what really surprised me was the way you reacted.
To begin with, you thought I lived in india and you missed it by a mile. Did you really think that I would be intimidated by you saying "It will be $10000.00 (it may be more, the exact cost will be placed in finalizing the process) plus my fees and I expect that in U.S. currency."
With the grace of God, I am able to afford $10000.00 and I wanted to make sure that you would be also. Now that I found out that you don't live in India, what is the point of going to Kerala. Remember, I went to India on the month of December and I was hoping that if you were there we could have a debate.
In terms of having you pay for the debate, you are mistaken. I don't operate like that.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 4:35:55 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"Instead of feeding the sheep, they are interested to receive and propagate ear-itching sermons from people like 'sharedconcept'. When are the overseers going to do what they are interested with being faithful to God?"


My trip to India was a blessed one. I went to a big city in kerala and conducted a teaching session and the subject was about the "gifts of the Holy Spirit". Afterward, the entire congregation accepted that teaching. This was done with the consent of the Elders. I was so moved by the spiritual hunger in so many of the youngsters. They were searching for the truth. No one can supress the truth. "Thou shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". The last I heard, so many are seeking the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I realize that these are all unpleasant subject for you to grasp. But God is faithful. There is a momentum that is at the threshold of a big breakthrough and I am glad that it is among the Brethrens. I know you have a hard time believing what I say. Let God be the witness and may His name be glorified.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 4:41:24 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"who knows that 'sharedconcept'is telling the truth?."

Now you are accusing me of falsifying. The accuser of the brethren is at work.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 4:56:51 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"Finally, let me close with another observation. In an earlier posting, 'sharedconcept' offered a compromise. It was that he and I should agree to disagree, which I promptly rejected."

Outstanding Bible scholars, some of them spending over a half of century in the word(studying,reading meditating and researching). They themsleves cannot agree with one another. They are not able to see eye to eye. It seems like, as long as we are not able to agree with
George P. Koshy, then we are at error. If we agree with him, then everything is fine.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 5:10:42 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

"If it was agreeable for him to diagree, then why is he arguing and challenging me for a debate?. It shows that he doesn't mean what he says".

I meant every word I said. If we ever get into a debate, I want the impartial observers to listen to both of us and in that way they will be able to make the decision based upon what we had to say. Already, this forum has done wonders. A number of readers gotten in touch with me.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 7:35:48 PM Close
Sharedconcept,

I am an IPC member and I believe in the gifts of holy spirit including speaking in other tonge. I have witnessed many and i didn't spoke in other tonge yet. I believe it is true. I don't know how it is. I want to know.

What did you say in other tonge?
What was the meaning of it?
Was it a message to others or to yourself?
What kind of feeling you had when you say it?
How it happens? It comes out of your tonge or mouth or mind?
Is it out of control or controllable?
Are you ashamed of yourself when you say it?
Are you aware of the people who hear this?


This is only few of my questions. It came out of curiosity. I am happy if i get this done. But not yet. Tell me if you can share with me. I know few other kerala brethren who speak in other tonge and now teaching in bible college in USA.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 20 Jan 2006 10:23:13 PM Close
Dear brother Sunil,

Thank you for writing to me. Previously I posted the answers to most of those questions on this thred. Now that I have your personal Email
address, I will write to you.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 21 Jan 2006 2:00:14 PM Close
Sharedconcept,

I cannot give you my e-mail address with the readers. If you have one, i will send it to you.

Your sister in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 21 Jan 2006 5:44:48 PM Close
Dear sister sunila,

My Email address is "sharedconcept@hotmail.com"

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:05:44 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

I will be posting some replies in other thread, as this thread become a long one.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:23:59 AM Close
Dear Bro. George P. Koshy,

Thank you for the prompt reply to sharedconcept even the points addressed to me.

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Reply by : svarg   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2012 5:14:57 PM Close

Nobody has the gift of other tounge. The pentecostals are lying saying that they have it.

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