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Keralabrethren.net: Sisters' Forum: Ornamental/dowry issues

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# 00094 :  Ornamental/dowry issues
Is ornaments against our faith? Is there any verse in the bible that is against using the ornaments. Is removing ornaments in anyway display of our faith? Most of believers have big houses, cars, expensive phones, really expensive clothes. The weddings are usual grand in their own way- dowry ( whether big or small) is recieved by the groom's family.People boast of recieve such amount infornt of others, everyone thinks he is lucky.Only thing is no ornaments are used in any of these.Does that make them better believers or heaven bound? If heaven is made of gold,rubies,topaz,shappire how can any of this be abomination to God? When recieving & giving dowry is against the indian law itself but no believers have ever had a problem with it? Could someone explain from the bible rather than just force their point of view down people's throat?
Post by : truebeliever  View Profile    since : 25 Jun 2008


Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2008 8:56:08 AM Close
Dear "truebeliever"

1. Wearing ornaments is not explicitly condemned by the Bible (OT or NT). Neither is having big houses, cars and expensive things like fine clothes.

2. Ornaments, expensive and luxurious lifestyle has one purpose - its an investment to make the flesh "feel and look good". Jewelry makes the the body look good, big houses make the body feel good and expensive clothes adorn the body to look good.

3. The Bible does say in Gal 6:8 - The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

4. So, everything that we do to please the old man of sin, the body of sin has a consequence. Some times the consequences are minor, sometimes major. Some take years to effect, some are immediate.

5. Since there is a consequence to pleasing the flesh, we should try and limit engaging in things that please the flesh.

6. Each person should decide for himself, before God, to what extend he/she will deny the flesh. Some find refusing jewelry impossible to do, others exult in wearing simple clothes and living modestly.

7. The key is asking "Is what I am doing pleasing my sinful flesh or is it to glorify God?"

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Reply by : thomas1974   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2009 11:23:20 AM Close

'About pleasing the sinful flesh'....  i believe it is God given wisdom as to where you draw the line... and whenever i have a doubt about how i should react/behave in a given situation i feel the best person to look to for help is Jesus..to look at His life on earth and think of what He would do...and from doing this i have learned the following...hope it helps

I believe earning money dishonestly pleases the sinful flesh this would involve.... not paying taxes,haggling too much with a poor vendor on the price of potatoes,taking dowry,stealing (getting money for charities orphanages etc and using it for your personal purposes), having part of the money as black money when you sell your apartment/house,making money in the name of Christ.

More for men... watching pornography on the internet would be pleasing sinful flesh.

To be preoccupied with me,myself and I would be pleasing the flesh..Jesus said if someone were to wrongfully take your coat give Him your tunic also!!

However strangely.... these things are not stressed on!... as if you notice,.. you can do/not do all these things and  nobody would know as it is not visble on the outside as to what you are doing in such issues of pleasing the flesh!! 

On the other hand jewellery is visible and so is given undue stress... which is another sign of pleasing sinful flesh... when you want to appear holy before men.

One of Jesus parables was about a woman who looses one coin from her head jewellery and was happy when she found it.. so that tells me that Jewellery didn't matter to God as long as it didn't take His place in your life..the same holds true for most things..

We read about Jesus attending a marriage and turning water into wine... people argue saying it wasn't fermented... but if you read the comments of the people who drank the wine they talk about how usually the best wine is served first and not last... that would be the custom only if people were too drunk to notice the difference..so Jesus was drinking alcohol at that wedding and one of His first miracles was making alcohol !! Its because of such things that the Pharisees called Him a winbiber and a glutton..but was He??

He associated with the dregs of society prostitutes, tax collectors,lepers,beggars,cripples and simple working class people like fishermen and He was a friend and healer to them... none of them as far as we know from the bible ever avoided Him/criticizedHim/argued with Him unnecessarily!!...the people who avoided Him and always Had some criticism or argument for Him were the respectable,honourable, religious establishment of that day..even non hippocritical people like Nicodemus who belonged to the religious establishment of that day came to Him at night to learn from Him to avoid being seen... 

I am not going to make inferences from all this.. but i think it is sufficient to say that the one thing on this earth that speaks the most about God's intention for man's lifestyle,attitude,behaviour is the life Jesus lived here on earth.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 8 Feb 2010 8:12:58 PM Close

Passage Exodus 33:3-6:
  3Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.   4And when the people heard these evil tidings, they mourned: and no man did put on him his ornaments.   5For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.   6And the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by the mount Horeb.

........................

This is from Exodus. There is a reason for God to say this to children of Israel.  God told them to have ornaments from their neighbours and again God is telling them not to have it.  The reason is "put away the ornaments from you so that GOD MAY KNOW WHAT TO DO UNTO YOU".  Personally I believe in this verse and I let God to know WHAT TO DO UNTO ME. It is in God's own words. I allow His will to happen to my life. I do not use ornaments or make up or luxuries.  I don't believe in them. I want God to guide my path. I use white clothes and very colored clothe.  just for variety.

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 9 Feb 2010 6:06:27 PM Close

Seriously? you're going to base your entire view on ornaments on this passage?  Shouldn't you take the entire Bible as a whole? 

Luke 15:22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet."

Gen 24:22 When the camels had finished drinking, the man took out a gold nose ring weighing a beka and two gold bracelets weighing ten shekels. (Abraham's gift to Rebecca via his servant)

Isn't it equally as silly to base your views on Abraham's Servant's example or the prodigal son parable?

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 10 Feb 2010 12:47:25 AM Close

Yes, joyboy. That is my view on this subject.  Somebody else can say something else. They may follow differently. Everybody is not the same.

If you want to say about Luke 15:22 and Gen 24:22, I will say that it is their cultural or traditional way of welcoming a person to the family. Ofcourse they are wearing ornaments. They may not know the seriousness of the matter as I say.

 

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 14 Feb 2010 11:53:34 PM Close

Sunila, I guess you are implying that when Jesus Christ narrated the parable of the Father's love towards the prodigal, he didn't know the seriousness of including that portion in the parable and also the new testament..

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 17 Feb 2010 12:04:59 AM Close

Believer.bible,

Jesus narrated how the father forgave his son and welcomed him with his love and richess. That son already had his part of wealth and distroyed it. And he ran away from home disobeying his father. Jesus is saying God is also loving, forgiving, and welcoming us even if we disobeyed Him. The importance is not the ornaments or the food he eat.  That shows the father's wealth. The importance isin his love and how he needed him most, even if he distroyed everything.   I hope you are not saying that in this parable Jesus is saying we can wear ornaments. That is the way a rich man welcome his son.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 17 Feb 2010 12:23:37 AM Close

Believer.bible,

These are verses from New Testament. Those verses says, "be not conformed to this world". New Testament says," be tranformed by renewing your mind"  Psalm 51:10 says "10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me".
 

Romans 12:22And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Romans 14:21-2321It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.   23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
 

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 18 Feb 2010 4:35:53 PM Close

Sunila,

What is your understanding of  "be not conformed to this world"? Is it wearing jewellary?

Regards,

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 18 Feb 2010 8:08:59 PM Close

The point Sunila is missing is that if ornaments was sinful, why would the father in the parable (which represents God), give the son an ornament?

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2010 6:42:42 PM Close

>>They may not know the seriousness of the matter as I say.

This also gives the impression that when you say something like this, Jesus Christ didn't know the seriousness as much as you did. I'm sure you did not intend that but that is how it comes out. I'm sure we all agree that Jesus Christ never promoted or condone sinful activity with his parables.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Feb 2010 1:38:54 PM Close
beliver.bible &joyboy,

I want to say wearing ornaments is NOT a sin.  It is a more positive approach to a holy life. Not like the other worldly people. All men and men on earth do so many things. But I am (a Jesus believer) is not  wearing it.  That shows I am not like other people. I am NOT INTO THIS WORLD. Or I am not ATTRACTED to the worldly. You may say all other spiritual leaders wear ornaments. christian and non christian.  I don't know what they do in their private life either. I believe God said in Exodus, to be with Israelites, remove your ornaments from you. 33:6 says they didn't wear ornaments. But I think they kept it  like we keep money. Remember Romans 12:2 You may not be like the worldly. RENEW YOUR MIND. Meaning RENEW YOUR THINKING. NOT LIKE THE WORLD.

In that parable rich man may kept his money as gold and silver.  When his son came he gave him little bit of money to enjoy. Or he honored his son giving him a ring (instead of money) because he is rich.. He can give ring.

 I have a question for both of you.

Do you think Ornament is "worldly".. Or is it spiritual?  There are spiritual ornaments also for non-believer.
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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 21 Feb 2010 1:32:03 PM Close

Sunila,

"Do you think Ornament is "worldly".. Or is it spiritual?"

Do you think using a car is "worldly"... Or is it spiritual? 

I hope you get the point.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Feb 2010 12:31:49 AM Close

Believer.bible,

I got the point.  It is LUXURY.

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 24 Feb 2010 6:15:55 PM Close

Sunila: Your view about separation is commendable.  I also very much agree with your view that wearing ornaments is not sinful. 

The point I was making is exactly that--wearing ornaments is not sinful. but rather it would fall under the "eating meat sacrificed to idols" categories.  That is, there is Christian liberty. 

 

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 27 Feb 2010 12:06:51 PM Close

Joyboy,

Bible says in 1 John 5:17 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin which does not [involve] death [that may be repented of and forgiven]......Amplified Bible.

How we know what is right and what is wrong.  We will see in the following verses.

John 14:25,26 25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.   26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ......(KJV)

John 16:7-11  7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.   8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:   9Of sin, because they believe not on me;   10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;   11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. .......(KJV)

 
 

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Reply by : oso2005   View Profile   Since : 5 May 2010 8:38:00 PM Close

Dear Sunila,

There are many other people in this world who do not wear ornaments; not just brethren and Benthicos people. How different are we from them? In US everyone has a huge house, couple of cars in the driveway and the lifestyle is no different from a jacobite or catholic other than wearing Ornaments.

What is the worldly difference in that case? We are confirmed to everything except ornaments? For what? to show ....what?

 

 

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Reply by : ayyopavam   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2010 9:05:15 AM Close

 

Daivathekkal kooduthayi nammal enthile even makkale snehichalum athanu abharanam. athanu apakadam.

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