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# 01292 :  Future Judgments - Contd. 2
Dear Readers/ trds,

As I mentioned in the previous thread ‘Future Judgment – 1’, I would like to post the seven future judgments here. This is not a very detailed study. There are many godly men differ from my understanding. I respect them for their stand. I may not agree with them until I see it making logical and scriptural sense. So far I couldn’t find anything better.

My inclination and understanding is more in line with the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. I know there are some who advocate mid or post-tribulation rapture. I would have difficulty following their eschatological view, but I would have no problem breaking bread with them since these things eventually would not matter greatly. Even the most brilliant mind, keyed in on studying the future events could know only in a limited sense.

Spreading discord among God’s people based on ‘petty’ arguments indeed do great damage. Discussions on eschatological issues have contributed much to these dissentions. Yet I believe every believer should have some idea what judgments they have in future. We need to know what is important for us to focus on. Late Bro. T K Samuel (Kerala) often said this analogy. ‘We need to know which part of the banana plant to water. There is no use in watering the support pole of the plant, but it has to be the roots.’

Mixing up the judgments from one to another could eventually lead us to lose our focus and start ‘watering the support pole’ instead of the roots. This study is done to avoid that. If you have an all together different view, please start a new thread and post your views. Please feel to comment or ask further explanations here and to the extent I am capable I’d try to explain. I would welcome help from other brethren also.

Contd.

Post by : tomj  View Profile    since : 8 Jun 2007


Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2007 9:31:19 AM Close
There are seven Judgments in God’s future program.

1. The Believers who are part of the rapture. (See references below)
2. The OT Saints – Dan 12:1-3 (End of Tribulation/ Second coming)
3. Tribulation Saints – Rev 20 4-6 (End of Tribulation/ Second coming)
4. Living Jews - Ezek 20:34-38 (End of Tribulation/ Second coming @ wilderness)
5. Living Gentiles – Joel 3:1-2; Matt 25:31-46 (End of Tribulation/ Second coming @ valley of Jehoshaphat)
6. Satan & Fallen Angels – Matt 25:41; 2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6; Rev 20:10 (End of Millennium)
7. Unsaved People – Rev 20: 11-15 (End of Millennium/ Before the White Throne)

1.THE JUDGMENT OF BELIEVER’S WORK

This is the most important one for a believer to understand and be prepared for. The other ones are there for us to properly understand God’s plan and to avoid confusion.

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2007 9:32:16 AM Close
Scriptures

1 Cor. 3:10-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rom 14:10; 1 Cor. 4:1-5; 9:24-27

1 Thes. 2:19 – For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?

2 Tim 4:7-8 – I have fought a good fight, I have finished the course and the time of my departure has come. In the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

James 1:12 – Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

1 Pet 5:2-4 – Shepherd the flock …… vs. 4 when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev 2:10 - Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. (Symbolizing a short period – Unger’s Bible Handbook) Be faithful until death, and I will give you crown of glory.

Rev 3:11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you, so that no one will take your crown.

Rev 4:4 around the throne was 24 thrones; and upon the thrones I saw 24 elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. Vs.10 the 24 elders cast their crown before the throne saying, worthy are You.

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2007 9:32:59 AM Close
B. The judgment – who, when, where & what?

Only believers will be at this judgment. 1 Cor 3:11-12 – Those who have built upon the proper foundation who is Christ the Lord! Paul makes it clear.

This will apparently take place immediately after the Rapture of the church. Rev 4:4 & 10 suggest the crowns given before the tribulation. Also, Rev 19:8 tells of the Bride coming with the Lord (second coming at the end of the tribulation) adorned with white linen which are the righteous acts which have survived the purging.

The sight is the bema (an elevated seat where a Judge would sit, the Judgment Seat of Christ) Acts 12:21 where Herod was seated. Also, Acts 18:12-17, Paul was brought before the bema.

We have to assume it is somewhere in heaven / where the Seat of Christ is.

The nature of the believer’s work will be revealed; distinguished between worthy works from worthless. 2 Cor 5:10 – good or bad, which suggest worthy or worthless, having no suggestion of sinfulness. Rom 8:1 – Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. We are already justified and glorified. Rom 8:30. Some of the works will pass and others will be burned. Every believer will receive his due praise.

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2007 9:38:15 AM Close
C. The outcome

The outcome will be either reward or deprivation of reward. Every believer will have some things which God can praise. Phil 1:6 – He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 1 Cor 3:15 – suffer loss (zemioo in the originals) carries no sense of physical or mental suffering. The sense is forfeiture of rewards otherwise would have received.

1 Cor 9: 24-27 Paul compares the Christian life to a race. 1 John 2:28 – ‘Abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming’.

D. Summary

Hoyt concludes as follows: “The judgment seat of Christ might be compared to a commencement ceremony. At graduation there is some measure of disappointment and remorse that one did not do better and work harder. However, at such an event the overwhelming emotion is joy, not remorse. The graduates do not leave the auditorium weeping because they did not earn better grades. Rather, they are thankful that they have been graduated, and they are grateful for what they did achieve. To overdo the sorrow aspect of the Judgment Seat of Christ is to make heaven a hell. To underdo the sorrow aspect is to make faithfulness inconsequential”

(In few days the rest of the six judgments would also (D.V) be posted. I have it ready but I think it is better to post after a brief pause. The other Judgments are not handled as detailed as this one. This is the most important one for believers.)

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 18 Jun 2007 11:45:55 PM Close
Dear " elf-asura"

Dont please misunderstand , if you are a born again beleiver please in christian love stick on to one thread and spill out your frustration , as you have chosen one moderators thread and commented on a single reply, those who are posting different question and replying and studying the word of God in the capabilities God reveals each one through the holy spirit are members who know each other for last around more than two years, there are ups and down in everyones words , but in christian love it is bieng faded, but dont come up with challenging queries, recently many have come in different names spoiling the harmony of this forum, like dattaswami and servetus, I hope you wont be like them and might stick on to a particular thread, wait for the answers and give answers as this forums and interactive, without answerring each others doubts and querries there will be no discussion. Please do have mutual respect for each other.


A brother
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2007 12:16:42 AM Close
Dear Br. Samuel -
I am sorry if there has been some misunderstanding but the thread on which I originally posted, led to some brick-batting and that too just a day after I joined.
I do have a lot of experiences on web fora and so I found it strange that somebody was trying to accuse me even before I had started saying much. That is why I resorted to "flaming".
I do apologise and I do know that "trashers" do appear on fora. I did not intend that but was only responding to people who came at me aggressively. I was just trying to make a point that such people cannot "push" around or "browbeat" a newcomer to a forum.
Hope this makes it clear and I would like especially to have nothing much to do or say with that sort of person, whatever be the erudite thread he/she might initiate.
Thank you for your kind response.
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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2007 4:27:42 PM Close
I am posting the rest of the ‘future judgments as I promised earlier. These are originally put together as Bible study notes. I have made some changes to make more sense to the readers. You will still come across with several ‘bullet’ points, but they are not identified with ‘bullets’. So consider this as a Bible study notes; not as an article.

2.JUDGMENT OF THE OT SAINTS

Daniel 12:1-3 vs. 1 – Tribulation; vs. 2 – resurrections of the wicked and the righteous and vs. 3 – rewards for the righteous. The best way we could understand this as the resurrection of the OT saints. Only the righteous are resurrected here. Rev 20:11-15 places the resurrection and judgment of all the wicked at the conclusion of the millennium. It is not unusual for OT prophets to place side by side events which later revelation separates by some periods. Also, this could be referring to the resurrection of the Jewish believers who died during the tribulation. They will be rewarded for leading others to faith during this period.

[I am not very dogmatic here since it is hard to distinguish and determine whether this is talking about the resurrection including the NT saints. Many believe it be so. In any case it doesn’t change the fundamental concept of the judgments, but it would change the actual number of judgments from seven to six. That’s all the difference I can see.]

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2007 4:28:49 PM Close
3.JUDGMENT OF SAINTS OF THE TRIBULATION PERIOD

Rev 20:4-6 relates the resurrection of the saints who died during the tribulation period. These martyrs are raised before the millennial kingdom begins. There is no mention of judging or rewarding; it can only be assumed to take place at the time of resurrection. The phrase ‘judgment was given to them’ would mean that the saints are in the business of judging people in the millennial government.

4.JUDGMENT OF JEWISH SURVIVORS OF THE TRIBULATION.

Before the inauguration of the millennial kingdom, the survivors of the tribulation, both Jewish and Gentiles, must be judged in order to insure that only believers enter the kingdom.

Ezekiel 20:34-38 describes and Matt 25:1-30 illustrates this event. Ezekiel states that it will occur after all surviving Israelites have been re-gathered from the ends of the earth to the land of Palestine. The unsaved or the rebels will not be allowed to enter the land of Israel, but will be cast into the outer darkness. Matt 25:30. Those successfully pass through the judgment will enter the millennial kingdom to enjoy the blessings of the New Covenant Ezekiel 20:37. But they will not have glorified bodies at this time, but will go into the kingdom in their earthly bodies and will populate the kingdom.

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2007 4:30:03 PM Close
5.JUDGMENT OF GENTILE SURVIVORS OF THE TRIBULATION

Matt 25:31-46 describes the judgment of the surviving Gentiles. Joel 3:2 predicts it will be at the valley of Jehoshaphat (which means Yahweh Judges).

Gentiles will be judged on the basis of their treatment to the Jewish people. Since the Church is already taken up, the word ‘brothers’ would mean Christ’s own brothers by race. (Kinsmen according to flesh- as Paul write in Rom 9:3). No one will treat a Jew kindly merely out of a beneficent attitude, but only out of a redeemed heart. So, this is not a judgment of works, but of genuine faith which produced selfless works. They themselves didn’t know they were doing such a great things, Matt 25:38. Lord, when did we see you hungry or naked?

Those who lack saving faith demonstrates lack of good works and they will be sent to the lake of fire. Others who are found faithful will be ushered into the millennial kingdom and they become parents of the first Gentile babies. The judgment of the Gentiles would also be done individually and not as group. Matt 13:30, 47-50

It is likely that these Gentiles who enter into the Millennial Kingdom are saved eternally, although the Bible specifically doesn’t say so. Sin is not completely eradicated form the earth even at this time and there would be unregenerate people also present there. But I personally believe all who initially enter the kingdom are indeed saved forever, but the subsequent generation will have to demonstrate individual faith, or they would suffer eternal separation from God and end up in hell at the white throne judgment. At the end of the millennial kingdom, we see a large number of rebellious people ready to war against the Lord and God would destroy them by fire from heaven. (Rev 20:9)

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2007 4:30:42 PM Close
6.JUDGMENT OF SATAN AND FALLEN ANGELS

Satan and his angels will be judged at the conclusion of the millennial kingdom. This will be the final judgment that confines him forever in the Lake of fire. Matt 25:41-42 ‘The Son of Man will send forth His angels…. - Gnashing of teeth’. (Rev 20:10 & Jude 6). Believers will apparently be associated with the Lord in judging the fallen angels -1Cor 6:3.

7.JUDGMENT OF THE UNSAVED DEAD

At the conclusion of the millennial reign of Christ unbelievers of all times will be raised and judged. John 5:29. It will be at the Great White Throne (Rev 20:11-15) The judge is the Lord. (John 5:22 & 27).

This judgment will not separate the believers from the unbelievers, for all who are here are already made up their choices while living to reject God. The book of Life (will testify that their names are not in it) and the books of deeds (which shows their worthless deeds and the degree of their sins) would be present. So everyone who appears here would be sent to the Lake of fire. We do not see anyone escaping eternal hell and separation from God at this judgment. There is the mention of the book of life, but there is no mention of the redeemed to be present at the ‘white throne’ judgment.

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2007 5:01:50 PM Close
It is interesting to note that there is only one book where the names of those saved are written. I don’t want to read too much into it, but it might be suggesting that all those saved are saved through one Person – by the ‘seed of the woman’. This ‘Seed’ who was born of the virgin; became the sacrificial Lamb; and there is / was remission of sin through His blood; from Adam to the very last person to live through the Millennial Kingdom. Only one way – through Jesus Christ the sacrificial Lamb. When God looks at me, He sees Jesus Christ in me and hovering over me, not the filthy rags otherwise I would have had. God promised I would be ‘white as snow’ if I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior. He is the One who could remove my sins, because He already paid for my sins by dying on my behalf on the cross and rose again. He is the Judge now; sending the ones who refused this offer of free salvation to eternal punishment.

Have you come to that decision in your life? If you trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, He would forgive your sins at this very moment. Please don’t think you need to get ‘better’ to be saved. You can never be ‘good enough’ to be saved. God accepts you the way you are now. If you think some day you will become good enough, and God would admit you into His heaven because of that, my friend, you will be eternally separated from God. There is no second chance after death. When you die, either you die as a saint or as a sinner. Your destiny is clearly defined; if you are a forgiven sinner you are a saint; if you are anyone other than a saint, you are a sinner! No other class!

I’d love to pray for you (with you) if you email me at ‘tomj3162000@yahoo.com’.May God’s name be glorified!

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2007 5:40:44 PM Close
Dear Readers,

If any of you are interested in receiving a PowerPoint presentation of these judgments could email me. Believers who are interested in learning or teaching this subject might benefit from it.

There are about three slides pointing to many verses with practical implications suggesting how to prepare for these Judgments. But all slides are just bullet points and each person will have to spend much time in studying or in preparation for teaching. Mere academic knowledge about the Bible would not make us any better; such knowledge should be channeled to transform our minds – our daily walk.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2007 8:07:22 AM Close
Dear brother Tom J,

Thank you for the write-up on the 'Future Judgments.'

You placed a note under #2. Please let me add to that #2. In the Epistle to Thessalonians we read about "those who are in Christ" and that is in connection with resurrection. Therefore, I believe all saints from Adam till then - who are in Christ - will be raised at the same time.

About their judgment: In 2 Corinthians 5:10 we read about the Judgment Seat of Christ. Who will stand before that Judgment Seat? We read that that "we" must all manifest before that Judgment Seat of Christ. This could mean that we are the only one from this age. Again, this judgment seat could be translated as "the jusdgment seat of Messaiah," because Christ is the Greek word for the Hebrew word Messaiah. If that is how we should consider, then all the saints in Christ, who were rqaised from the dead, will stand before that Judgment Seat. It will not be limited to the believers from this age only. That may be a better interpretation, because at the marriage of the Lamb, there are to be the Bride - the Assembly, and the Friends of the Groom as well as those who are invited from the nations to be present. All those who are in Christ will be resurrected and given rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ before the marriage of the Lamb take place.

I hope that his will help to clarify to certain extent your note in the bracket after #2.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2007 8:15:28 AM Close
Dear Bro. Koshy,

Thank you for the clarrifications. It certainly helps to understand the rapture as the rapture of 'all those in Christ'. I read those verses many times but failed to connect it that way. Thank you very much.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2007 1:57:37 PM Close
Brethren, this is what I think --

OT saints will NOT be resurrected at the rapture.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12:1-2).

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. (Dan 12:12-13).

This resurrection is after the great tribulation. Daniel was told that he would stand in his lot at the END OF THE DAYS, which is at the end of 1335 days (see verse 12).

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall STAND at the latter day UPON THE EARTH: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet IN MY FLESH shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (Job 19:25-27).

Even this portion in Job shows the timing of Job's resurrection to be after the great tribulation, after the Lord stands upon the earth!

As for the phrase "in Christ," it is exclusive to the body of Christ, except in 1 Cor 15:22. However, Paul makes that statement looking to a time much beyond (after Millemmium) in verse 24. We know from Eph 1:10, That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him. This is a a future event, probably matching with the time line of 1 Cor 15:24.

There is a difference between folks who were "in Him" Who was the true Vine, and those who are "in Christ", the body IN CHRIST (Rom 12:5).

In Christ Jesus,
Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 2:55:49 AM Close
Dear Moses,

I am interested in your thoughts and your use of scriptures to substantiate them. Scripture talks about two resurrections only, the "first" and the "second". Is it your belief that the "first resurrection" is in two stages and that the word "first" applies to the nature rather than the timing of this event?

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 3:13:18 AM Close
Dear Moses,

I should have said that like our brother George Koshy, I have always thought that all those who are to be saved eternally would rise from their graves at the same time.

In spite of this I would like to hear from you and ask you to continue to develop your argument if you feel free.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 11 Oct 2007 11:11:25 AM Close
Dear Moses,

When you have a moment I would be interested to hear how you reconcile the two resurrections mentioned in scripture with your thoughts about the Old Testament saints.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2007 4:52:58 AM Close
Dear brother John,

Sorry for the delay in answering. I got to see your posts only today. This is what I think on the resurrections.

We read about the TIMING of the first resurrection in the book of Revelation, where it occurs BEFORE the 1000 years begin. There is another resurrection AFTER the lapse of 1000 years (Rev 20:4-6). The timing of the first matches with what we read in Daniel 12 (1335 days), and Job 19 (the Lord standing upon the earth). The resurrections mentioned by the Lord in John's gospel also refer to the same. The "last day" mentioned by Martha in John 11 is the same (first) resurrection.

It is apostle Paul who mentions the resurrection of the saints of this age in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4. This is not mentioned at all in the OT. It was a MYSTERY revealed. This truth is not according to PROPHECY of the OT Scriptures, but according to the revelation of the MYSTERY (1 Cor 15). Remember that the body of Christ itself is a mystery. "Church" was revealed in Mat 16 and 18, but there was a chruch in the OT also (Acts 7:38). But "the church, which is His body" is a revealed mystery. Also, the rapture truth is a mystery revealed - not predicted in the OT Scriptures. Also, the fact that Gentiles would be blessed while Israel remains in blindness (Rom 11) is also a mystery.

So, I don't see the rapture resurrection as being a first phase of first resurrection, etc. First resurrection is the first resurrection that is PROPHESIED. It remains as first resurrection. But the resurrection of the saints in the body of Christ will remain UNIQUE, being a mystery not foretold in the OT Scriptures but revealed later to and thru Paul. This occurs BEFORE the great tribulation, while the "FIRST" resurrection occurs after it.

cont'd...

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2007 4:53:39 AM Close
We are told Daniel will rise at the resurrection which occurs after 1335 days in Daniel 12. Job also would raise at the same time (Job 19). These two Scriptures give us a clear indication about the timing of the resurrection of the OT saints. The resurrection Paul mentions is for and about the body of Christ, and both Daniel and Job are NOT a part of it. Hope I have expressed myself clearly. Let me know if you have further questions on my understanding.

In Christ Jesus,
Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2007 5:23:22 AM Close
Dear Moses,

Thank you for your reply. Please allow me time to study your scripture references. I find this a very intersting discussion.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2007 9:13:31 PM Close
Dear brother John,

When we talk about the body of Christ being a mystery, and not predicted in the OT, there is one common objection raised. It is about the OT prophecies of the salvation of Gentiles, as mentioned by James in Acts 15. It is true that salvation of Gentiles is mentioned in the OT, but those references are in relation to the blessings Gentiles receive in the Millennium, AFTER Israel is restored completely to the Lord. But Paul revealed to us in Romans 11 that God is dealing with the Gentiles BEFORE the restoration of Israel, and while they are in blindness. This is dispensation, when Gentiles are saved, they are added to the body of Christ in which there is no Jew /Gentile difference. However, the OT prophecies predict the salvation of Gentiles, but RETAINS their identity as Egyptians, Assyrians, etc (see Isa 19:23-25).

What I am trying to say is this. The current dispensation and the body of Christ is completely a mystery revealed to us by the Lord through apostle Paul in a SERIES of revelations (Acts 26:16). This church was NOT predicted in the OT. However, once revealed, these truths are corroborated by the OT (Rom 16:25-26).

In Christ Jesus,
Moses

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2007 9:15:17 PM Close
Typo: This is dispensation, when Gentiles are saved,
Correction: In this dispensation, when Gentiles are saved,
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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 14 Oct 2007 11:26:23 AM Close
Dear Moses,

Thank you for these further remarks. I will make a contribution as soon as possible. I am under a bit of pressure as far as time is concerned due to other commitments.

I fully agree that as a general rule the present dispensation in which the church, the bride of Christ, is being prepared for translation, is not part of O.T. prophecy.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 14 Oct 2007 12:34:18 PM Close
Dear Tomj,

Please do not think that I am trying to hijack this thread that you started. The scripture references and their interpretations that you set out in your opening posts, as well as brother George Koshy's addition were very interesting and most instructive.

It is clear that there is a divergence of understanding regarding the physical resurrection of those who have died and will be raised to experience the fulness of God's blessing physically as well as spritually. In spite of the fact that I may have certain thoughts about this and may have held them for many years, my desire is to search the scriptures diligently for understanding and confirmation of what God is pleased to reveal to us. I would wecome your thoughts and the thoughts of our brother George regarding the scriptures quoted by Moses Lemuelraj.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 13 Jul 2008 8:55:10 PM Close
Bringing this thread forward since there are some related discussions.

Tom J

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 14 Jul 2008 4:02:06 PM Close
Tom J,

Very interesting topic - there is a lot to read and research before I make comments.

Can you help me get started by stating the scripture where "pre-tribulation rapture of the church" is mentioned?

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 Jul 2008 4:46:17 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

The purpose of the Tribulation, the purpose of the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the Pretribulational position.

If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the Pretribulational position is the most Biblically consistent interpretation.

Tom J


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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 2 Aug 2008 6:38:58 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

The following is the most clear verse I was able to find regarding last great Tribulation:

Matthew 24:21-22 (King James Version)
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

IF THE CHURCH IS GOING TO BE RAPTURED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION THEN WHY DOES GOD HAVE TO SHORTEN THE DAYS FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT?

The Bible clearly teaches that the Church of the last days go through the great tribulation.

Revelation 7:14 (King James Version)
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Your doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture is a very convenient doctrine; it’s a dangerous doctrine, because some people are not preparing their faith – they’re not fortifying themselves for the trial ahead.

THE BIBLE TEACHES: “HE THAT ENDURES TO THE END WILL BE SAVED”

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 3 Aug 2008 5:37:55 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

"Your doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture is a very convenient doctrine; it’s a dangerous doctrine, because some people are not preparing their faith – they’re not fortifying themselves for the trial ahead."

It is not a convenient doctrine. Upon careful analysis it would be found as the Scriptural one.

Also,

I am glad they are not fortifying themselves. No true believer who lives now need to. If you really want to believe that you would go through it that would be your desire & prerogative. But for a better understanding you may start leaning the Bible more thoroughly and systematically.

The ‘Elect’ in Matthew 24 is not the Church. I am not going into much detail because you have committed yourself into the SDA teachings and not showing much interest in studying un-biasly. If I could see any value in spending time and explaining the pertinent scriptures, refuting the SDA teachings to someone with a thirst for truth I would have. But I simply do not see it.
Please study carefully who those ‘elects’ are in Matthew 24.

Also you said; "The Bible clearly teaches that the Church of the last days go through the great tribulation."

Where are those clear teachings that the ‘Church of the last days’ would go through the great tribulation? What I see is the great tribulation & people including the followers of Jesus Christ, the soon to be King going through it. How clearly does the Bible teach that they are the Church of the last days?

Why do you think the rapture is such an impossible event even though it is ‘clearly’ detailed in the scriptures?

[As I mentioned earlier I may not continue disputing all that the SDA proponents bring forth unless someone on this forum like to study or has questions in that regard.]

Regards,

Tom J


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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 4 Aug 2008 12:43:43 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

By Church I mean all the saints from all denominations. No particular Church as a whole is going to heaven.

EXCEPT FOR FEW EXCEPTONS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE - NO ONE IS TAKEN TO HEAVEN UNTIL JESUS COMES THE SECOND:

John 7:33-34 (King James Version)
33Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
34Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither YEA CANNOT COME.

John 14:2-3 (King James Version)
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and RECEIVE YOU unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

SEQUENCE OF EVENTS AT THE SECOND COMING - ALL THE SAVED GO TO HEAVEN AT THE SAME TIME:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (King James Version)
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If we take all past examples in the Bible, God preserved the saints through the tribulation, plagues, flood, fire, lion’s den, etc; so the last great tribulation is no exception.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 4 Aug 2008 1:57:57 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

Do you believe in an earthly millennial kingdom where the Lord Jesus Christ would reign for a thousand years on this earth?

Tom J

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 4 Aug 2008 3:40:18 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

I believe in the event but you got the location wrong - it is going to be in heaven:

Revelation 20:4-6 (King James Version)
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the FIRST RESURRECTION, the condition of the world will be as follows:

Isaiah 13:9-10 (King James Version)
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Satan and the falled angels will be the only ones alive on earth chained by chains of circumstances till the wicked are resrrected to receive their punishment in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:3 (King James Version)
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 4 Aug 2008 3:58:28 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

My question was carefully worded. The location was wrong is your comment.

My question is, again,

"Do you believe in an earthly millennial kingdom where the Lord Jesus Christ would reign for a thousand years on this earth?

Tom J

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 4 Aug 2008 7:47:44 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

MY ANSWER IS NO since there is no Scripture to support your theory.

After the 1000 years Satan will reign over the resurrected wicked for a season till they are annihilated in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:7-9 (King James Version)

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : kj   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 5:40:20 AM Close
There is a bit of confusion here. How could we belive that Jesus have his millennium on this earth when the Word of God says:

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Re 3:12)

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Re 21:2)

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. (Isa 65:17)

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (Isa 66:22)

By the way, I am not SDA.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 7:04:28 AM Close
Dear 'kj,'

You cited Revelation 3:12. What is the temple of God? From where he will not go out? What is that city? We know the name of that city is New Jerusalem. It is further explained in chapter 21. It is in heaven. it will come down from heaven to the new earth without sun and moon. It will be like, but better than, the first day of creation.

The 1,000 year reign of Christ is on this earth, as we read in chapter 20:1-6. This is where the earth receives its blessing from God thorugh Israel. We read about this in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and other prophets.

We are with the Lord for ever as we read in John 14 and 1 Thessaloninans 4, after the rapture.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 7:11:07 AM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

You wrote, **MY ANSWER IS NO since there is no Scripture to support your theory.

After the 1000 years Satan will reign over the resurrected wicked for a season till they are annihilated in the lake of fire:

Revelation 20:7-9...**

Brother Tom J asked about the 1,000 Year Reign of Christ and not after that. Your answer is what happens after that 1,00 years. The first verse of your citation tells that truth. Please answer the question, properly.

You should remember that what is stated in the Word of God is not a theory, for you to demeanor what God revealed with that expression.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:26:42 AM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

You are confounding two different and distinct aspects of Christ’s comings and are in error. You quoted John 7:33-34, 14:2-3, and Matthew 24:21-22.

In John 7:33-34, 14::2-3, 1 Corinthians 15, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 we read about the New Testament saints to be received in the clouds to meet the Lord Jesus Christ in the air. This is different from the promise of the Messiah coming for the Jewish remnant to establish His kingdom, as detailed in Matthew. After the rapture of the New Testament saints, there will be tribulations and the Jewish elect will go through that. That is what is mentioned in Matthew 24.

We read in Revelation 3:10, from the Lord Jesus Christ, “… I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial which is about to come upon the whole habitable world to try them that dwell upon the earth.” This keeping of the new Testament saints from the hour of trial is because they kept the word of His patience. This is not said about the Jews.

In Matthew 25, we read about the judgment of the nations (Gentiles) after the tribulation or the trial. This judgment will take place on this earth. It is not the judgment of the Jewish elect, who are called as “My brethren,” by the Lord. You should remember that the New Testament saints are called the elect. At the same time, the Jewish remnant is also called as His elect. These two are different and distinct and should not be confounded.

You should not confound the scriptures related to the future and future judgments. If you do, you will end up being in great errors. Brother Tom J cautioned you about this, in an earlier posting.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 12:44:01 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

What if there is not distinction between Jew and Gentile - your teaching has to be trashed?

Galatians 3:27-29 (King James Version)
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I lovingly and seriously request you to re-consider you position on this teaching. I can see the danger, you and preparing your mind and the minds of the readers to be deceived when Satan appears visibly as his final act of deception:

2 Corinthians 11:14 (King James Version)
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

All the saved are going to Heaven at the same time, and the will return to earth after the 1000 years are over.

John 14:2-3 (King James Version)
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that WHERE I AM, THERE YE MAY BE ALSO.


Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 1:05:32 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

Can you comment on the following verses. How should we understand this.

Rom 11:11- 26

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not!

But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Contd.


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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 1:07:05 PM Close

You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written.[Romans 11:11-26]


How do you understand this?

Tom J

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 1:44:59 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

During the 1,000 years of reign of Christ, there is distinction between Jews and Gentiles. The question brother Tom J asked was about and during the 1,000 years of reign of Christ, the millennium. You have not answered that. Why not? (You must answer. -1)

Galatians 3:27-29 has nothing to do with the judgment of any kind, but that has to do with the current saints and their current position. You are misusing the Word of God, to establish your theories.

Instead of jumping from one branch to another, stay focused and get involved in a discussion. If you are incapable of doing that, you will continue the present course. It is very similar to a drunkard’s walk.

What is the purpose of quoting 2 Corinthians 11:14? (You must answer. -2.)

You also wrote, ** All the saved are going to Heaven at the same time, and the will return to earth after the 1000 years are over.** Where is this written, in the Word of God? (You must answer. -3)

John 14:2-3 do not tell that any thing about earth. Only in the teachings of Miss White and SDA, you will see earth in the blessed hope that is given to the saints by the Son. (You must answer. -4)

On this thread, there are at least four questions for you to answer.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kj   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2008 8:51:23 PM Close
I am not sure about pre-tribulation rapture or post-tribulation rapture, which might need a systematic Bible Study. Both these beliefs confuse me very often. I do not intend to do a deep study either, because, according to me, whichever belief I hold on to, it does not change the rewards I get ultimately.

As I perceive Revelation 20th chapter verses 1-6 do not give a description of pre-tribulation rapture; nor do they give a description of post-tribulation rapture. Verses 1 to 3 describe how an angel comes down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand, seizes the Satan and binds him and casts him in to the bottomless pit to be bound for thousand years. Verses 4-6 describe how the millennium would be with John seeing thrones and there are the souls of those, who were beheaded for being witnesses of Jesus Christ. This, John calls as 'first resurrection'. Verses 7-8 describe the release of Satan after the thousand-year period. Satan goes out again deceiving the nations, which are in the four quarters of the earth. The final humbling of Satan is described in verse 9 and verse 10 there is a description about the Satan being cast in to the 'lake of fire'.

This chapter does not clearly say where the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ will be.

Revelation 3:12 says that the believer, who stood by faith in Jesus will be like a pillar in the temple of God. This pillar would be like an ornament supporting the beauty of the temple and at the same time to be like a pillar in the house of God, is an honor. New Testament Church (all the believers in Christ) are like a temple and each believer is like a pillar in that temple.

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1Co 3:16-17)

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (1Co 6:19)

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2008 12:40:43 PM Close
Dear Tom J

The Jews were given 70 prophetic weeks (490 years) from the starting date of the prophecy given below to either accept or reject their responsibility to God as a nation. The start date was 457 BC and the end date was 34 AD.

Daniel 9:24 (King James Version)
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

They rejected the Messiah as a nation, but the message of salvation was given to the Jews – that truth is still Holy:

“For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches.”

The Jews represented by the branch that did not believe in the Messiah are broken off and the believing gentiles like us are grated in, so what we now have is a SPIRITUAL ISRAEL comprised of all the believing saints from all nations and tongues (including any Jew who wants to accept the Messiah).

Romans 11 is referring to this spiritual Israel and not about the nation of Israel in Palestine nor about the Jews according to their Jewish DNA.

All true members of the Spiritual Israel living in the last days will be saved trough the Great Tribulation; they will not just vanish from the world one fine day before the Great Tribulation.

God can protect his people through the time of tribulation like he protected the children of Israel from the plagues of Egypt.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2008 2:47:09 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

I am adding one more question for you ro answer. This is in addition to the four questions, you have to answer.

On 4 Aug 2008 you wrote this to Tom J, **After the 1000 years Satan will reign over the resurrected wicked for a season till they are annihilated in the lake of fire:**

The 5th question resulted from your postings, on this thread: Where did you read that the wicked will be annihilated in the lake of fire? I asked this question, on another thread, but you did not provide a scptural support for your writing. What you wrote is not in the Word of God. If it is, "IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?" This is your own question. You placed it as a guideline to follow. I hope you will begin to follow your own guideline.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2008 2:57:14 PM Close
Question:

"What is replacement theology?" {Charles Ryrie & I see this view totally scriptural. Since I am pressed for time I am copying here.}

Answer:

Replacement Theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology / Covenant Theology), or the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).

Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel.

If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2008 2:57:50 PM Close
The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost, and will continue until it is translated to heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.

After the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the Great Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Then when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2008 2:59:23 PM Close
Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial / Dispensational understanding of God's plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for Premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ's kingdom will last 1,000 years.

After the Tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God's plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel, and will one day restore Israel to His intended role for the nation He has chosen (Romans chapter 11).

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2008 3:12:52 PM Close
The above three postings were to address Bobby Chacko's comments about Romans 11. I forgot to mention while doing it in a hurry.
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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 7 Aug 2008 5:04:55 AM Close
Dear Tom J,

Here is additional scripture describing the condition of the earth after the Second Coming:

Jeremiah 4
Jeremiah’s Vision of Coming Disaster
23 I looked at the earth, and it was empty and formless.
I looked at the heavens, and there was no light.
24 I looked at the mountains and hills,
and they trembled and shook.
25 I looked, and all the people were gone.
All the birds of the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fertile fields had become a wilderness.
The towns lay in ruins,
crushed by the Lord’s fierce anger.
27 This is what the Lord says:
“The whole land will be ruined,
but I will not destroy it completely.
28 The earth will mourn
and the heavens will be draped in black
because of my decree against my people.
I have made up my mind and will not change it.”

2 Peter 3:10 (King James Version)
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

THERE WILL BE NO ONE ON EARTH FOR 1000 YEARS EXCEPT THE DEVIL. THE EARTH WILL BE LIKE A BOTTOMLESS PIT AND OUR GALAXY IN A BLACK OUT.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Aug 2008 6:54:21 AM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

This is the sixth question that I ask you to substantiate from the scriptures.

You wrote, **THERE WILL BE NO ONE ON EARTH FOR 1000 YEARS EXCEPT THE DEVIL. THE EARTH WILL BE LIKE A BOTTOMLESS PIT AND OUR GALAXY IN A BLACK OUT.**

Where is this written in the Word of God? In other words, "IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?"

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Aug 2008 9:47:01 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

You quoted Jeremiah 4: 23-28 suggesting the whole earth will become the bottomless pit. But verse 27says; “The whole land will be ruined, but I will not destroy it completely.” So, this earth is not completely destroyed, right? If so, how did this partially destroyed earth became a ‘bottomless pit’?

These verses are talking about the upcoming Babylon invasion [from the north] as identified later in chapter 20:4. It is talking about ‘My people’, referring to the people of Israel, specifically Judah. It becomes clear in verse 31 ‘the cry of the daughter of Zion’, as the one crying out in pain.

You seem to be running away from key questions and bringing out more & more unrelated verses.

Regarding 2 Pet 3:10 – This refers to what would happen as described in Rev 20, specifically before the Great White Throne Judgment. Please read that chapter carefully. In verse 3 it says, ‘Satan will not deceive anyone ‘until’ the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.’ [The word ‘until’ indicates something else is there to follow. Satan continues his deception. If the 1000 year reign is in heaven there is no possibility of continued deception.]

Verse 7 talks about when the 1000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations……….. Verse 10 talks about Satan being thrown in to the Lake of fire and they will be tormented [not annihilated] day and night forever and ever.


contd

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Aug 2008 9:48:41 PM Close
So, combining Jeremiah 4 & 2 Pet 3, you are just mixing two unrelated events. I would appreciate you studying those passages in its context. By posting few unrelated verses here and there would not defend the teachings of SDA.

But as I have mentioned before, the greatest of all heresies is the SDA teaching on investigative judgment. Please get away from it and try to cling to Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. He has ‘finished’ it for you on the cross and Satan doesn’t have to ‘carry your sins away’ as SDA teaches. I hope all three of you would come to know the grace of God and find peace, instead of living in the terror of tribulation and investigative judgment.


Tom J

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2008 3:40:08 AM Close
Dear Tom J,

As you mentioned, the earth will not be completely destroyed. I feel that you are taking the passage literally and thinking that Satan will be shut up in a pit inside the earth for 1000 years. But you must realize a pit without a bottom is not a pit; Satan and the fallen angels will be on the surface of the earth for 1000 years chained by chains of circumstance because there is no one alive for him to deceive UNTIL the second resurrection. The second resurrection is for all the wicked and will be after the 1000 years.

When you read Revelation, what normally does not appear to be realistic, is symbolic – you will find the key to understand the verse elsewhere in the Bible. For example the chains used to bind Satan for 1000 years:

2 Peter 2:4 (King James Version)
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I WILL SUMMARIZE THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS AGAIN STARTING FROM THE SECOND COMING:

In 1 Thessalonians 4, we see the description of Jesus descending from the clouds and take up His followers. This is what is called the rapture--being caught up. He then says, "I will take you to my Father's house and where I am you may be also." This is where He takes us to the mansions that He had prepared for us.

In Revelation 21, we read, "I saw the New Jerusalem come down from God." But in Revelation 20, it says that we are living and reigning with Him. So if New Jerusalem is where our mansions are, and it had not come down to earth, where are we going to be during the 1,000 years? This means we are not going to be on the earth.

continuted

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2008 3:52:17 AM Close
SEQUENCE OF EVENTS AFTER SECOND COMING continued:

Another clue comes from Isaiah, where we get a picture of what the condition of the earth will be during the 1,000 years. It says, "I'll make the earth utterly empty. I'll turn it upside down." And then in Jeremiah 4:23, we read, "I beheld the earth and lo, it was without form and void. And the heavens had no light." It sounds like it's right out from Genesis, but if you keep reading: "I beheld the mountains and lo, they trembled and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld and lo, there was no man and all the birds of Heaven were fled."

This means the mountains were there, but then they were gone. It continues, "I beheld and the fruitful place was a wilderness and all the cities were broken down."

But what broke them down? The Bible says, "The presence of the Lord and His fierce anger." It goes on to say that there is no life on earth. Jeremiah also says that the slain of the Lord will cover the earth from one end to another and there's no one to lament, to mourn, or to bury them.

In Isaiah 24:1 we learn, "Behold the Lord makes the earth empty. He makes it waste. He scatters abroad its inhabitants."

The earth is in a condition where nobody's alive, it's dark, and the cities are broken down. When could this be?

When the Lord comes down, the righteous are caught up with Him, the righteous dead are resurrected, the living are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, and as Revelation 20 says, the rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years are finished.

The second resurrection is a time when the wicked come forth from their graves at the end of the 1,000 years for their judgment--meaning there are two distinct resurrections.

We will deal with the investigative judgment later on in its appropriate thread.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2008 9:26:58 AM Close
Dear Bobby,

You said – “In 1 Thessalonians 4, we see the description of Jesus descending from the clouds and take up His followers. This is what is called the rapture--being caught up. He then says, "I will take you to my Father's house and where I am you may be also." This is where He takes us to the mansions that He had prepared for us.”

A more scriptural description would be those ‘in Christ’. Our Lord never promised he would take His followers to heaven. But I do understand the sense in which you are saying. [I think]

After this event does the Lord Jesus Christ come to earth? If so, when? Where would the resurrected saints be when the Lord comes back to earth?

Another question – You said, “When the Lord comes down, the righteous are caught up with Him, the righteous dead are resurrected, the living are destroyed by the brightness of His coming, and as Revelation 20 says, the rest of the dead do not live until the thousand years are finished.”

Where is this recorded that the ‘living are destroyed by the brightness of His coming?’

You are still quoting unrelated verses including the ones from Jeremiah 4 to establish the SDA teachings. It is a total disregard to the Scriptures even after it is pointed out by many of us, time and time again, still misquoting Bible verses trying to establish a false teaching. You are not offending me here. You are offending the word of God when you take the Scriptures and misquote having no second thought.

If I teach the Bible I have a greater responsibility to study it first. Otherwise I will be like a doctor who operates on a patient with no prior experience or proper understanding of human anatomy.

Isa 24:1 is speaking about the time of tribulation [Rev 6-19]. It is not speaking about the total destruction. During the tribulation there is always a remnant. [Rev 20: 4] It is speaking about those who were beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus coming to life and reigning with Christ.

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2008 9:27:36 AM Close
Again, let me ask you this. If the 1000 year reign is to be in heaven does Satan come to heaven to fight the heavenly host? If not, do you see the Lord going back to earth again?

None of these eschatological views might put you out of fellowship with Jesus Christ. But if you believe in the SDA teachings of the investigative judgment & Satan carrying you sins away in future, I am truly concerned about your soul. Many of us tried to teach you the Biblical truth but you keep jumping from one unrelated verse to another and evade all pointed questions.

I do not have the luxury of time; yet I kept on writing refuting these ‘silly expositions’ of SDA proponents. Frankly speaking, my patience is running out; because only so much of pleading one can do, reminding you to study the word of God and simply stop teaching.

If you think you can propagate the SDA teachings on this thread and convince any of its [regular] readers/ believers, you are simply living in a dream world. Most of the readers are well versed than the best SDA can offer. [I don’t like to sound arrogant here, but simply stating a fact.] My suggestion would be to take a break and start studying the Bible [not SDA teachings] and for the sake of sanity, stop quoting verses that are totally out of context!

If you heed to my request you don’t have to answer any of my questions. But if you continue, you have a moral obligation to answer my questions and Bro. George P Koshy’s questions. You have been avoiding those pointed questions like a plague; yet coming back with more unrelated, out of context verses.


Tom J

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2008 7:14:07 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

My answer is in block letters followed by Scripture:

After this event does the Lord Jesus Christ come to earth? If so, when? Where would the resurrected saints be when the Lord comes back to earth?

THEY WILL BE IN HEAVEN FOR 1000 YEARS, JESUS WILL BRING THEM BACK TO EARTH AFTER THE 1000 YEARS:

Revelation 21:2
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Where is this recorded that the ‘living are destroyed by the brightness of His coming?’

AT THE SECOND COMING ONLY THE RIGHTEIOUS ARE RESURRECTED AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION – THE LIVING WICKED ARE SLAIN – THUS ALL WICKED WILL BE DEAD FOR 1000 YEARS

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revelation 20:5 (King James Version)
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Again, let me ask you this. If the 1000 year reign is to be in heaven does Satan come to heaven to fight the heavenly host? If not, do you see the Lord going back to earth again?

AFTER THE 1000 YEARS SATAN DOES NOT COME TO HEAVEN TO FIGHT, INSTEAD THE SECOND RESURRECTION WHICH IS OF THE WICKED TAKES PLACE – SATAN IS LOOSED SINCE HE NOW HAS PEOPLE TO DECIEVE - ALL HUMANITY MEET FACE TO FACE FOR THE FIRST AND LAST TIME - THE WICKED WITH SATAN TRIES TO ATTACK NEW JERASALEM:

Revelation 20:7-9 (King James Version)
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2008 8:07:22 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

My question - Where is this recorded that the ‘living are destroyed by the brightness of His coming?’


You wrote -

AT THE SECOND COMING ONLY THE RIGHTEIOUS ARE RESURRECTED AT THE FIRST RESURRECTION – THE LIVING WICKED ARE SLAIN – THUS ALL WICKED WILL BE DEAD FOR 1000 YEARS.

[To establish this you quoted the following verse.]

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Now another question - Why is that 'w' in the Wicked a capital letter? [KJV]

Tom J

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2008 10:34:23 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

It refers to the last day Anti-Christ power on earth; but there are other scriptures to prove that all other wicked will be slain. The following are some of them - read the whole chapter and consider the follwing scripture in context:

Revelation 6:16 (King James Version)
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Matthew 13:30 (King James Version)
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In the scripture below - the ones TAKEN AWAY are slain:

Luke 17:33-35 (King James Version)
33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other LEFT.

Those are LEFT BEHIND are taken to heaven:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 13 Aug 2008 1:54:54 PM Close
Dear Bobby,

When you tried to establish, “THE LIVING WICKED ARE SLAIN – THUS ALL WICKED WILL BE DEAD FOR 1000 YEARS” you quoted 2 Thess 2:8. Then I asked a question why the ‘W’ in the wicked is capital.

And you gave me the correct answer. But the purpose of my question was to show you how easily you pick verses out of context and post here without studying them. So, my question on the capital letter ‘W’ was to urge you to look closely into the folly of misquoting verses.

Along with the reply you quoted more verses. They are all from the Bible. But they do not establish ANYTHING you are trying to establish. I can pick each verse and tell you what it is teaching and in what context.

But now I feel like having the onus upon me to correct you or explain to the readers what these verses are for. I think it is just unfair. Every time I explain something and prove that you are misquoting, you are quoting more and more out of context verses.

Your task is very easy. You are just copying verses. So, Bobby before you post any verse please study what they are speaking about. Do not settle for studying one verse. When you do that you will start seeing the truth from the scriptures.

Tom J

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Aug 2008 4:35:30 PM Close
Dear Bobby Chacko,

There are more than six questions that you have not answered. Let me reproduce the latest two of them.

On 6 Aug 2008, I asked: The 5th question resulted from your postings, on this thread: Where did you read that the wicked will be annihilated in the lake of fire? I asked this question, on another thread, but you did not provide a scptural support for your writing. What you wrote is not in the Word of God. If it is, "IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?" This is your own question. You placed it as a guideline to follow. I hope you will begin to follow your own guideline.

On 7 Aug 2008, I asked: This is the sixth question that I ask you to substantiate from the scriptures. You wrote, **THERE WILL BE NO ONE ON EARTH FOR 1000 YEARS EXCEPT THE DEVIL. THE EARTH WILL BE LIKE A BOTTOMLESS PIT AND OUR GALAXY IN A BLACK OUT.** Where is this written in the Word of God? In other words, "IS IT WRITTEN IN THE WORD OF GOD?"

Do you have answers? If you do, please provide.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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