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# 01367 :  Witness Lee
It seems that the Local churches founded by Witness Lee are very similar to brethren assemblies. These churches are independent, bible believing, have breaking of bread every sunday, plurality of leadership etc. Does anyone have more information on these churches?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee

Post by : witness2007  View Profile    since : 4 Sep 2007


Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 5 Sep 2007 12:05:29 AM Close
Witness Lee's group is a False Cult, and a very deceptive one.

I will start a thread in the moderated forum of this website (www.brethren.in) on this topic. Those who wish to read my posting may kindly come there as I am investing my "discussion forum" energies there.

Johnson C. Philip
www.ApologeticsWiki.Com

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Reply by : witness2007   View Profile   Since : 5 Sep 2007 9:37:38 AM Close
drjcp,
there are some that have characterized the beliefs of the Local churches founded by Witness Lee to be a cult. But he came from a baptist background. There are some that classify the brethren churches and their devotion to traditions that are unfounded scripturally as a cult. Indeed, the brethren are a cult when compared to orthodox christianity in some respect. Similarly, would it not be going too far in classifying the local churches as a cult?
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 5 Sep 2007 1:41:42 PM Close
Dear Witness2007

kindly come to www.Brethren.in (which is a part of this website) if you wish to enter into any discussion.

I am sorry but I will not be discussing any subject here as I am investing my energies on the other site

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : bk.oommen   View Profile   Since : 5 Sep 2007 10:01:41 PM Close
Below is a link where you can read more on some teachings of Witness Lee.

http://thebereans.net/olet-cor.shtml

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Reply by : newjerusalem   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 5:44:32 AM Close
Dear bro Johnson,

I would like to ask you a question - Have you 'HEARD' that Witness Lee is cult or Do you 'KNOW' (after studying) that he is cult. We always like to arrive at judgments based on what we hear from here and there. But it would be always good and safe to make comments after we really study about it.

Recently Fuller Theological Seminary in US completed a two year thorough review and examination of the major teachings and practices of the local churches, with particular emphasis on the writings of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Fuller Theological Seminary found that:

“It is the conclusion of Fuller Theological Seminary that the teachings and practices of the local churches and its members represent the genuine, historical, biblical Christian faith in every essential aspect.”

Christianity Today, the leading Evangelical Christian magazine in the world, also published its conclusions of our biblical teaching, stating:
“Just to be clear, the Local Church/Living Stream IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING A CULT—so their indignation is understandable..."

After 3 years of careful research, dialog, examination, & theological analysis, veteran apologist Gretchen Passantino, co-founder & director of Answers In Action (AIA), in conjunction with colleagues Hank Hanegraaff (president) & Elliot Miller (Editor-In-Chief of the Christian Research Journal), of the Christian Research Institute (CRI) have concluded that the churches affiliated with the teachings of Watchman Nee & Witness Lee & with the Living Stream Ministry (LSM) embrace & teach orthodox Christian theology, are a Christian movement of brothers & sisters in Christ, & SHOULD NOT BE LABELED THEOLOGICALLY HERETICAL NOR AS A “CULT,”

But though the truth is as mentioned above there are a few websites on the internet who still echo the same old story that Witness Lee is cult. It's pity that they do not want to KNOW THE TRUTH but to just propagate lies.

Please visit this site to read more http://www.lctestimony.com/

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 7:51:54 AM Close
I have no idea about Watchman Lee and Witness Lee's ministries, but after visiting the link quoted above, I found it interesting. To counter check its legitimacy, I also visited another link;

http://www.withchrist.org/MJS/neelee.htm

There seems to be lots of problems with the beliefs of Watchman Lee.

Here are few described in the above web site:

"In his tendency toward extremism, Nee went into the "warfare" teaching of Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts via their dangerous book, War on the Saints. Hence much of the good of Nee's ministry and writings (some thirty volumes of his messages are in print at present) has been overshadowed by errors such as the Arminian "baptism in the Holy Ghost" for power in service and spiritual warfare, exercise of the sign gifts (tongues not stressed), healing in the atonement, inner light and intuitive revelation, demon possession of believers, and exorcism.

Nee also taught a split, or, partial Rapture, i.e., the "overcomers" will be caught up prior to the Tribulation, the "unprepared" believers will experience the holocaust. All of the, teachings mentioned here are in his books, The Release of the Spirit, and The Spiritual Man (the latter in three volumes)."

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Reply by : jimple   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 3:10:07 AM Close
Both of them are Ex-Brethren.

"Nee first heard of the Plymouth Brethren soon after beginning his movement and in the late 1920s came into contact with the Plymouth Brethren (Exclusive: Taylor Brethren). At their request, Nee visited England in 1933 and for a while considered establishing fellowship between his movement and the Brethren. However, after he returned to China, trouble developed. The Brethren rejected Nee’s allowing women to speak in meetings, his relaxation of the requirements for baptism, and a variety of Nee’s opinions on minor points of eschatology. Most importantly, Nee had “fellowshipped” with Theodore Austin-Sparks, head of the Witness and Testimony Literature Trust and leader of a ministry at a small meeting hall at Honor Oak, outside of London. Nee’s refusal to disavow Austin-Sparks became grounds for his disfellowshipping by the Taylor Brethren. After the break with the Brethren, he turned his full attention to the development of the movement in China"

"Soon Witness Lee was led to attend the Brethren Assembly (the Benjamin Newton branch) in his town. The way they expounded the Bible and taught biblical truths attracted him very much. From the year Witness Lee was saved, he continuously attended their meetings for seven years. He learned much from them, especially in the matters of biblical types, prophecies, and parables. Their teachings helped him to give up worldliness in its outward aspect and kept him from drifting away from the Lord’s pathway."

" Witness Lee was sent by Nee to Taiwan in order to continue their ministry there. During the 1950s, Lee worked with T. Austin-Sparks.. . However, although they were united in their views on Christ as life to the believers, they differed sharply on their views of the church, with Witness Lee teaching and emphasizing one-city one-church, and Austin-Sparks emphasizing the independence of individual congregations."

http://www.witnesslee.com
http://www.watchmannee.com
http://www.witness-lee-watchman-nee.org/relationship/background.html

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 3:33:19 AM Close
I can categorically state - on the basis of what I have read extensively about them and through personal encounters with them - that the Witness Lee group is not a cult but what some might call a sect. I have personally been to some of their meetings and they do have their idiosyncrasies in their form of "worship" and becoming united in their doctrine and study of the word and sharing of the word, heirarchies, etc. Indeed, I have some friends who come from this group.
As for Watchman Nee's work and understanding of the Word and the Will of God, it is only a total empty-headed bigot who would attack him. He has been a tremendous inspiration to millions of Christians around the world and also paid the highest price for his love for the Lord Jesus. It is easy for those who are addicted to controversies about doctrines and theological conundrums to smear the name of brothers like Watchman Nee and T. Austin Sparks and sister Jesse Penn Lewis. But their testimonies and work remain not in vain and their writings are still used of the Lord to lead others closer to Him much to the shame of those who denigrate them.
John Kurien
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Reply by : newjerusalem   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 4:49:51 AM Close
Dear Saints,

There is a website where you can read the works of bros Nee and Lee absolutely free. It is put forth by Living Stream Ministry, publisher of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/alphabetical.cfm

As in Psalms 34:8 "Taste and see that Jehovah is good;" why don't you enter into the writings of these brothers before making such irresponsible comments against them? Just taste a little of their writings and I‘m sure you will gain a lot of Christ through them.

I’m a brother who has been blessed with the riches of the All-Inclusive Christ revealed through the ministry of these dear ones.

Hope the above site help to usher you all into a deep subjective experience of Christ who is the embodiment of the Triune God who mingled Himself with humanity to be born a God-man, in whom we see the Father, the Son, and the Spirit—the complete God and a perfect man for the purpose of dispensing the Triune God into us.

In Him,
GM

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 5:34:10 AM Close
Thanks GM for that link - I was looking myself for some of the works of Watchman Nee and not so much Witness Lee.
John Kurien
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Reply by : newjerusalem   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 5:41:24 AM Close
Your are most welcome bro John.

GM

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 6:47:47 AM Close
Dear 'Witness2007' and 'newjerusalem',

I really appreciate your eagerness to inform readers here about Wathman Lee and Wintness Lee. Frankly speaking, I do not know any thing about them. Just as you have quoted a link I found another link contradicting your beliefs. I have nothing against any child of God, who proclaims the truth about salvation, Jesus as the Lord and Messiah, and Jesus as the only Savior, and salvation is by faith and by faith alone, and not by works. All other things are secondary for me.

Among several thousands of children of God proclaiming this truth, you wanted me/us to know much about them by reading their books. If I/we keep reading about his books and the books of others in order to assess whether or not we find "much of Christ" in them, my one life time is not enough.

When you justify that they are exceptionally good, please write something about them instead of pointing to their books, and also state if they are not preaching, "baptism in the Holy Ghost" for power in service and spiritual warfare, exercise of the sign gifts (tongues not stressed), healing in the atonement, inner light and intuitive revelation, demon possession of believers, and exorcism. Nee also taught a split, or, partial Rapture, i.e., the "overcomers" will be caught up prior to the Tribulation, the "unprepared" believers will experience the holocaust. All of the, teachings mentioned here are in his books, The Release of the Spirit, and The Spiritual Man (the latter in three volumes)." "baptism in the Holy Ghost" for power in service and spiritual warfare, exercise of the sign gifts (tongues not stressed), healing in the atonement, inner light and intuitive revelation, demon possession of believers, and exorcism..." as written on this link.

http://www.withchrist.org/MJS/neelee.htm

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Reply by : gamaliel   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 7:50:39 AM Close
Very useful apologetics links on Witness Lee Cult

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l40.html
http://www.thebereans.net/arm-wlee.shtml

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=3&id=31&Itemid=8

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Reply by : gamaliel   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 7:51:19 AM Close
Very useful apologetics links on Witness Lee Cult

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l40.html
http://www.thebereans.net/arm-wlee.shtml

http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=3&id=31&Itemid=8

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Reply by : newjerusalem   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 9:05:17 AM Close
Dear trds,

Here is a brief note on the teaching of Baptism in Holy Spirit by Witness Lee. You can see a book with same name in the link I provided earlier.

BAPTISM OF HOLY SPIRIT IS AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT

The baptism in the Holy Spirit has already been accomplished, as seen in 1 Cor 12:13... The baptism of the whole Body of Christ in the Holy Spirit is something which is already accomplished and still exists… It is the same principle as that which applies for the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus. If we would believe in Him, we need not ask Him to die again for us, because His redeeming death has already been accomplished.

MANIFESTATION

Some Christians always insist that speaking in tongues is a necessary manifestation of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. But tongue speaking is not the only or the necessary manifestation of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

PROPER WAY TO EXPERIENCE THE BAPTISM IN THE H S

1)We must be right with the Body of Christ and stand in it. Since the baptism in the Holy Spirit has been accomplished upon the Body of Christ and still exists upon it, we must be properly related to the Body and maintain this proper relationship with the Body in order to be one with it. Of course, we ourselves must get right with the Lord.

2)We must take the baptism in the Holy Spirit by living faith. We who are rightly related with the Body of Christ should simply take it by living faith. If we mean business with the Lord, He will honor our faith. There is no need for us to seek feelings, manifestations, or signs. We should never trust in these things.

A final word..there are two aspects of the work of the Holy Spirit - the inward aspect for life and the outward aspect for power. The outward is not the aim; Inwardly we need to drink of the Holy Spirit for life, and outwardly we need to be clothed with the Holy Spirit for authority. The outward aspect of power is always for the sake of the inward aspect of life. It is by the inward that God’s desire, God’s central aim is fulfilled.

GM

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 5:37:01 AM Close
Just a comment.
In Christendom you will always experience one set of believers (the pots) calling other sets of believers (the kettles) black.
So if a group is described as good in one place or by some, then you can be sure that someone else will describe them as bad in another place.
This is the beauty of it.
John Kurien
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Reply by : rtdaniel   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2007 12:02:00 PM Close
Dear All,
I am not a constent user of this forum. But I began to look in to it as I was instigated by some of by friends very recently. It is so shame ful to notice how ignorent are some of the so called "Brethren" teachers are in many things.
I had an encounter with one of the ministers of the Witnes lee group. We spent couple of hours discussing several Biblical teachings in my home. With my experience and from what I gathered from this Witness Lee minister I certainly believe that this group is a Cult. I also bought a NT and some other books from him to do some more research. Reading some of the foot notes in the NT I can conferm without any doubt that they are a Cult
Now I would like to warn our brethren about the wiles of this group. They are targetting some of the "Brethren" evangalists in rural areas and are trying to indoctrinate them with their teachings.I had some of them call me and ask me about them. According to the person I talked to they have more than 150 churchs in India. Some of the key people are Malayalies.They are well trained in personal approch, much more than their counter parts in JW.
Beware of the "Little foxs"
R.T. Daniel
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Reply by : witness2007   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2007 2:47:10 PM Close
R.T. Daniel - can you please explain why you think that this a cult? what specific beliefs do you disagree with them on?
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Dec 2007 1:52:35 PM Close
Dear R.T. Daniel,

Good to read your posting. Please expose this group as you know using their writings. Some key footnotes to the verses will do.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 7:00:51 AM Close
Dear 'asdpoilkj,'

A cult is not recognized so, by comapring to a doctrine of a group of Christians. A teaching is said to be of the nature of being a 'cult,' compared to the teachings in the Word of God. We are not considering "'Brethren' belief," as you wrote. I am not a 'Brethren' and I was not considering a teaching of such a group. I was mentioning about "Scriptural Teachings."

I need some help from R.T. Daniel, on this matter. I am not familiar with this group.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 8:09:20 AM Close

"Their beliefs are almost similar to 'Brethren' beliefs. Some on this forum unknowingly expressed in another thread, the beliefs of 'Witness Lee'. They wrote, "the believers enjoy a daily salvation and later enjoy eternal salvation in eternity". This is one of their beliefs".

In the above assertion I was saying that "Their beliefs are almost similar to 'Brethren' beliefs". That is to say, both the groups base their beliefs on the teachings from the Bible, yet some teachings of both are similar and some are not. Each group has its own beliefs based on the Scriptures. Who is 'cult' then?

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 2:53:19 PM Close
Without going too deep into what the 'Witness Lee' group believes or calling them as 'cults', I can outright reject their teachings on the 'Nature of God', which they present similar to the teachings of "Oneness theology". God is not split into three persons as he claims that all Christianity understands, but God is 'Trinity' in three persons, yet One, but differ in functions. God sent His one and only Son -- that does not mean God is split; but God came down in incarnation as Son, yet the Father was in heaven. I cannot quite understand this mystery; yet I can say that God is in three persons; but not three Gods. Likewise, when Jesus said, He will send 'Comforter' he did not mean God was split, but God in the third person was going to come as 'Holy Spirit'. Three in One, yet they are not three persons of three different entities; they are One. They differ in functions yet they are ONE. Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven. This needs to be understood very clearly. The error in understanding this also would mean, supporting Jehovah Witnesses, who claim Jesus as a Man, and is subordinate to the Father. It is a great mystery and hard to understand.
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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 9:03:12 PM Close
Hello,
Witness 2007 and New Jerusalem (GM) -- do you have any thing to say?

Is it not true that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were formerly members of one branch of the Plymouth Brethren. They believed in the priesthood of all believers. They believed that there is no distinction between clergy and congregation. They believed that there is no official pastor over a congregation. They believed that anyone can baptize. They believed that anyone can speak freely in the congregation. Later Witness Lee deviated from his beliefs. Like Mormons, Witness Lee group believes that man can become God.

On the Nature of Humanity

"Christ is of two natures, the human and the divine, and we are the same: we are of the human nature, but covered with the divine. He is the God-man, and we are the God-men. He is the ark made of wood covered with gold, and we are the boards made of wood covered with gold. In number we are different, but in nature we are exactly the same."

Witness Lee, The All-Inclusive Christ
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 5th ed. 1989), p. 103

"God can say to His believers, 'I am divine and human,' and His believers can reply, 'Praise You, Lord. You are divine and human, and we are human and divine.'"

Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1990), pp. 51-52

"My burden is to show you clearly that God's economy and plan is to make Himself man and to make us, His created beings, 'God,' so that He is 'man-ized' and we are 'God-ized.' In the end, He and we, we and He, all become God-men.'

Witness Lee, A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1990), p. 54


"We the believers are begotten of God. What is begotten of man is man, and what is begotten of God must be God. We are born of God; hence, in this sense, we are God." Ibid., p. 53

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 12 Dec 2007 7:19:05 AM Close
Dear 'asdpoilkj,'

Your posting of 11 Dec 2007 07:10:56 & 11 Dec 2007 21:03:12 tell us that this group of Witness Lee is a cult. According to the common use of this word, a 'cult' is religious sect that is commonly regarded as bogus and /or extremist. You have given the evidence to it. Therefore, I ask R.T. Daniel not to provide any more.

I am not familiar with any of the group that is known as 'Brethren' hold such unscritptural teachings. Now I ask you to tell us which one of the "Brethren" group teach all those that you quoted from Witness Lee's group? You must provide this information, other wiese you are trying to spred misinformation and you got caught.

Shalom Malekim!!!

(Note: Where are the 'Brethren' who are so vocal about not to wear shoes on this isuue of spreading misinformation by a masked man?)

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 12 Dec 2007 7:23:38 AM Close
Dear George P. Koshy,

The beliefs of Witness Lee can not be accepted by any true Christian. I can not accept their beliefs . But calling them cult has led some to reap huge penalties.

Quote: "According to the common use of this word, a 'cult' is religious sect that is commonly regarded as bogus and /or extremist.' Unquote

The meaning of cult is as follows:

"A system of religious belief and worship." [1913 Webster]

That which was the religion of Moses is the
ceremonial or cult of the religion of Christ.
--Coleridge. [1913 Webster]

Webster's dictionary elaborates as follows:
Some critics have tried to apply the cult label to legitimate religious movements in an effort to discredit them. Some conservative Christian writers have been particularly quick to call any religious movement that they disagree with a cult. There are also some spiritually abusive churches that have many cultlike characteristics, but are not cults.

There is often a marked difference between a word's definition and a word's usage. The definition of the word "cult" applies to all religions; the usage of the word (since the 1960s) applies to a sub-set of religions and groups - those that engage in abusive or criminal behavior, and/or deny their members civil and human rights.


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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 12 Dec 2007 8:01:19 AM Close
Dear 'asdpoilkj,'

Did you read Webster's Dictionary of a later date? I read what I wrote in the 1984 revision.

You wrote that what you quoted from Witness Lee's group are also taught by 'Brethren.' Let me give one example from your quote, "He is the God-man, and we are the God-men." Do you know the meaning of this statement from Witness Lee's group? Please provide verifiable evidence that this along with the other teachings of Witness Lee's group, those you quoted, are in sink with the 'Brethren' doctrine.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 12 Dec 2007 8:23:07 AM Close
George P. Koshy,

You are so irritable person. I do not want to write to you anything any more. How irritating is your writing and then you wish me "Shalom Malekim!!!" Withdraw you shalom Malekim first. I do not like to have any Shalom Malekim from you.

You must show me where I wrote this.

Quote:
"You wrote that what you quoted from Witness Lee's group are also taught by 'Brethren.'

And then goodbye. Don't address me any more! You are so exasperating.


(Rephrased as per the request of Tom J)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 12 Dec 2007 9:58:43 AM Close
Dear 'asdpoilkj,'

You asked on 12 Dec 2007 8:23:07 AM, "You must show me where I wrote this. Quote: "You wrote that what you quoted from Witness Lee's group are also taught by 'Brethren.'"

I deduced what I wrote from your posting of 11 Dec 2007 8:09:20 AM. The first sentence of the second paragraph is, --"In the above assertion I was saying that 'Their beliefs are almost similar to *Brethren* beliefs'."--

Still you need to substantiate your assertion about these Christians. I am only asking for that.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 8:18:59 AM Close
On 12th December posting by asdpolkj at 8:23:07 there is an ending note ‘Rephrased as per the request of Tom J.’

Let me give some explanation.

Few minutes before that posting asdpolkj made a posting that contained a phrase that was considered as a ‘swear’ word / phrase. I made a request to rephrase it and asdpolkj immediately responded by removing the word and reposted it.

I also deleted my request within few minutes. Now the readers would know what the background is.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : spectator   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 10:04:46 AM Close

Stating that someone had association with the Brethren is NOT the basis for comparing a sects teaching as authentic or cultish.

The Brethren as all of them define it, has only one set of teaching they adhere to. It Scripture only, and no other. Brethren has no other written code or theology they go by. What are they? That is reasonable question, as there are so many Christian sects that claim the same, but also complex. Simplest answer is; that which is in the Scriptures and nothing else. It cannot be denied that in general the Brethren throughout the world have this common thread of understanding in them. It is even interesting that the Brethren did not take that name (Brethren) but was attributed to them. Some today want to shy away from it and do so. No harm there and should not be a matter of debate. Other than India, generally the Brethren churches do not go by that name. The churches that are close to Plymouth Brethren (Plymouth Brethren: the name so evolved as the people identified those early believers as ‘the Brethren from Plymouth’) teachings in the US adopt a name that identifies them with a Chapel or Hall by their local church name. Exceptions are the ‘Assemblies’ started by people predominantly of Indian origin.

So coming back to the point, if a group of people gathering together under a banner as Witness Lee, and they have similarities to the Brethren form of congregational worship and teaching, should we then attribute them as the same? If Witness Lee team is identifying under that name and establishing themselves as that throughout the world, let them be. Certainly, they do not want to be called the Brethren! Why associate them then with the Brethren?

Continued -

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Reply by : spectator   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 10:05:16 AM Close
Now to the point of are they a cult or not? That is something the individuals who have interest and time to pursue and resolve. Upon ones’ pursuit, even if the difference is only in single matter of clear teaching in the Scriptures, and if it is vital to the fundamental teachings and beliefs, then one need not look any further to declare them erroneous. What then if it indeed has to do with teaching of God and his Persons?
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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 11:17:53 AM Close
Watchman Nee was from China, but later got associated with Plymouth Brethren - Exclusive in England. Witness Lee derived his theology from Watchman Nee. Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were formerly members of "Plymouth Brethren (Exclusive)". They have established Churches, which they call as "Local Churches", and these are similar to 'Assemblies', or 'Halls', or 'Chapel'. They also believe their churches are independent just as Brethren Assemblies. Their Local churches are characterized by their belief in Evangelism. Their belief is that calling Jesus will save a person. (Acts 2:21 "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.") Few of Lee's teachings are also on the overemphasizing Calvin's Theology. "Trinity" is not an easy subject to understand. Based one their belief on "Trinity" they can not be called, "Cult". Their great error in teaching is that man can become God. This is what Mormons teach. On many beliefs they do believe in 'Scripture only'. How then Scripture is interpreted in different ways? No body can call, "Oneness theology" is cultism. There are highly devotional Pentecostals, who do not believe in "Trinity" The are not "Cults".
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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 12:36:47 PM Close
Dear "asdpoilkj",

I would urge you to withdraw your personal remarks to George P. Koshy and apologise for their intemperate character. We ought to address one another in the spirit of Christ, mindful of the fact that none of us can claim to have been the subject of divine blessing apart from the grace of God.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 1:50:28 PM Close
Dear John Miller,

I think I am not wrong if I call you to apologize to me first for interfering and looking at things in a biased way.

Can I ask you to apologize to me for ignoring this writing by George P. Koshy:

"I deduced what I wrote from your posting of 11 Dec 2007 8:09:20 AM. The first sentence of the second paragraph is, --"In the above assertion I was saying that 'Their beliefs are almost similar to *Brethren* beliefs'."-- George P. Koshy 12 Dec 2007 9:58:43 AM

Next, George P. Koshy needs to apologize to me in Christian Spirit for not understanding properly what I meant. It is very clear from all the posts above "Brethren" do not teach "Witness Lee" Teahcings, but "Witness Lee"s teachings are ALMOST similar to the teachings of "Brethren"

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 1:50:33 PM Close
Dear "asdpoilkj,"

When any group denies the One name as "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit," then they are a cult. The doctrine of Trinity is what we read in Matthew 28:19 and it was revealed by the Lord Jesus Christ. Various aspects of the doctrine of Trinity arewritten in the Gospel of John. They also came from the lips of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

previously, I answered and provided you with the evidence for my statement, as you asked. You have refused to do so about your statements, so far.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 2:17:28 PM Close
Neither Witness Lee group, nor Oneness Pentecostal group, nor Brethren deny One name as "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". If they are cult, who is not?

The question that arises is whether The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are One or three. When Bible does not say very clearly about it, no one can be cult, on this particular understanding. However, Witness Lee's teachings in many aspects are in error to my understanding.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 7:25:46 AM Close
Dear Readers,

With his/her posting of 13 Dec 2007 14:17:28, 'asdpoikj' has showed that he does not hold the words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord jesus Christ said, "I and my Father are one." This person denies the eternal Sonship of the Son. One who say that he is not sure about the singular use of the noun, "name," to be "ONE" or "THREE" is a heretic, a member of a sect that propagates false teachings. His excuse is, "Is it even so, that God has said,..." (Genesis 3:1).

"asdpoikj" posted certain teachings of Witness Lee group and he also wrote that 'Brethren' teaching and theirs are similar. I asked him to provide evidences for that. He has not done so. Now he is questioning the scriptural teaching that "the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit" is ONE God with ONE name. The word of God tells that with their fruit we shall know them. "Test every spirit" is the command from God. Let us do that.

This person, 'asdpoikj,' is trying to change the subject of this thread and subtly (Genesis 3:1) avoid answer my request.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 7:50:11 AM Close
This is what Witness Lee wrote in one of his books:

"The Lord says in Matthew 28:19, "Baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Here the Lord speaks clearly of the three persons—the Father, Son, and Spirit. But when He speaks here of the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit, the name which is used is in the singular number in the original text. This means that though the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three, yet the name is one. It is really mysterious—one name for three persons. This, of course, is what is meant by the expression three-in-one, or triune.

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Reply by : spectator   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 8:23:44 AM Close
Dear asdpoilkj,

I do not know much about Witness Lee teachings. From what you know and understand about them, I think the subject in question here is not ambiguous any more.

Let me quote you:
(From 13 Dec 2007 11:17:53 AM):

1. “Their great error in teaching is that man can become God.”
2. “This is what Mormons teach. “
3. “On many beliefs they do believe in 'Scripture only'.”

In none of the above we can compare them with the Brethren.

On a separate subject a note to all – let us not allow any of us to make this forum to insult each other and can we be respectful of all - even towards the ones insult us directly or indirectly. If not, what is the difference in us since we have ‘put on the new’ (Col 3:9-13)?

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 8:31:08 AM Close
Dear 'asdpoikj,'

Do you want to start a new thread on 'The Doctrine of Trinity?' Please do so. I will join you there. What I wrote was from the Word of God and not from any other. On the contrary, you profusely quote Wintess Lee.

On this thread, I ask you to substantiate your writing about 'Brethren' teaching and 'Witness Lee' teachings are similarand you provided 'Witness Lee's' teachings. They are heretical in nature and teetering over the brim of cultish appearance. Without changing the subject, please provide the evidence.

For your information, we do not read that 'the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit' are three, in the scriptures. We read that it is the name (singular) and it is not a mystery as you calim, becasue it is revealed to us by the Son. We also do not read in the scriptures, "one name for three persons," as you wrote. There is no cardinality in the eternal God. Please start a new thread for further discussion on this subject.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 8:32:30 AM Close
I am with you "Spectator" on this:

"On a separate subject a note to all – let us not allow any of us to make this forum to insult each other and can we be respectful of all - even towards the ones insult us directly or indirectly. If not, what is the difference in us since we have ‘put on the new’ (Col 3:9-13)?"

On other things, I was trying to expose Witness Lee as much as I know, because he belonged to "Plymouth Brethren" at one point of time. Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's teachings are in many aspects are similar to that of the "Brethren" teachings, where he belonged once. He started interpreting Scriptures in erroneous manner.

Quote:
"It seems that the Local churches founded by Witness Lee are very similar to brethren assemblies. These churches are independent, bible believing, have breaking of bread every sunday, plurality of leadership etc. Does anyone have more information on these churches?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee" This is what Witness2007 posted in the beginning of this topic.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 8:44:45 AM Close

I spitefully dishonor and disrespect and refuse to honor the request of George P. Koshy until unless he asks pardon from me for offending me.
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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 9:07:29 AM Close
I am repeating my own post of 11 Dec 2007 2:53:19 PM here:

"Without going too deep into what the 'Witness Lee' group believes or calling them as 'cults', I can outright reject their teachings on the 'Nature of God', which they present similar to the teachings of "Oneness theology". God is not split into three persons as he claims that all Christianity understands, but God is 'Trinity' in three persons, yet One, but differ in functions. God sent His one and only Son -- that does not mean God is split; but God came down in incarnation as Son, yet the Father was in heaven. I cannot quite understand this mystery; yet I can say that God is in three persons; but not three Gods. Likewise, when Jesus said, He will send 'Comforter' he did not mean God was split, but God in the third person was going to come as 'Holy Spirit'. Three in One, yet they are not three persons of three different entities; they are One. They differ in functions yet they are ONE. Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven. This needs to be understood very clearly. The error in understanding this also would mean, supporting Jehovah Witnesses, who claim Jesus as a Man, and is subordinate to the Father. It is a great mystery and hard to understand."

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 15 Dec 2007 12:49:09 PM Close
Dear "asdpoilkj",

I would earnestly urge you to reconsider you post of 14th Dec/8:44:45. It is not the language or attitude of a born-again child of God. It is not language that takes its character or example from our Master or the teaching of His Apostles. There are many, many scriptures that I could quote to support this but I am sure that one so knowledgeable as you already knows them.

John Miller

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 16 Dec 2007 11:56:34 AM Close
Dear Bro. John Miller,

I retract my post that I made on 14 Dec 2007 08:44:45 in the light of your request, and with my assurance that I do not have any ill feeling against George P. Koshy and I do not need any apology from him.

Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

I leave the post there to show to every one as to how much I was upset on calling me a "masked man". If he needs my details and if web master thinks it is ethical to divulge my personal information, Koshy may get from him. George P. Koshy has attacked me even when I had dialog with him on "Holy Spirit Baptism" (now at S#452; there were humorous remarks also about my user id there, and in "70 Weeks in Daniel" now at S#442). Here, I was disclosing some information about "Witness Lee" as desired by the initiator of the topic. (I go to Baptist Church, just for information). As co-partner in contributing to this thread he is not authorized to call me names. He is not custodian of this web site. Do you remember how many times he said, he is not "Brethren" but he is 'brethren'. Why is he upset on my help to the initiator of this topic? Did I attack any 'brethren' for that matter? Every one who is saved in the precious blood of Jesus Christ falls under the category of 'brethren'. If any one denies the name of Jesus as the Savior, let him show such dissent. I was wondering what misinformation I was spreading. Everything I wrote about 'Witness Lee' group was right. I would say now also Lee's beliefs were ALMOST similar to those of "Brethren". They have independent local churches. They believe in salvation by faith alone, they believe in Scripture alone, they believe in plurality of priesthood, they believe in Trinity. There are disparities in the expression of 'Trinity' by them. But based on their belief they should not be called 'cult'. Their belief on "Nature of Man" is in error. If he calls others “cult”, others would call him “cult”.

Thank you.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 16 Dec 2007 1:37:05 PM Close
Dear 'Witness2007',

You needed some help in knowing something about "Witness Lee" and how they are similar to "Brethren". The clarifications they gave are at this link:

http://www.lctestimony.com/ResponseToOpenLetter.html

Copying the article in whole or part is prohibited. So, I can not copy that material and paste it here. Please go to that site and read for yourself if it helps you. Please do not think that I am supporting 'Witness Lee' group. I do not accept many of their derivations. I donot want to write anything more on this subject, because it might end up in quarrels and disputes.

Thanks

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 6:59:41 AM Close
Dear 'asdpoikj,'

You postings indicate that you cannot substantiate your claim as you wrote that the teachings of 'Witness Lee' and "Brethren' are similar. If you had any, you would have posted them by this time. You had more than one week to do so.

Please do not say that I have to go to another website to find that out. As you wrote it in your postings, it is your obligation to substantiate it.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : witness2007   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 4:24:22 PM Close
Thank you asdpoilkj for your input on this discussion. Avoiding personal attacks and contentious arguments in making your point will give it more credibility though. I agree with you that the issue of trinity is complex and the Local Churches accept the doctrine of trinity.

However, I do not agree with their whole hearted acceptance of one man's interpretation of the Scriptures (that of Witness Lee's) over the scriptures themselves.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 7:58:23 PM Close

Dear "Witness2007",

You are welcome. I thought of writing little more on this topic, but that writing will lead only to quarrels and disputes. That is the reason why I stopped after pointing the link, where you will find a definite 'What we believe' page of "Witness Lee" group.

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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 3:32:37 AM Close
dear brothers,
had a very interesting time reading all the threads.. let me ask a few things.. what are we trying to proove. there's no need for expounding the word of God in so much of detail or claim that we as individuals know and have researched on many topics and act as custodians of a movement called the brethren.when we cannot manifest the fruit of spirit. to abuse another brother or to insult another or to try to catch hold of one point and use that to defame other is in no way the spirit of Christ.
dear brothers in another post by witness "brethren have become so legalistic" .. this is an ample proof of "brethren" or anyone who does not want to be called by that name as to how talking about doctrines have let to the losss of the sensitivity to another brother and what Christ like attitude is". are not just "brethren" but all those who claim to be custodians indulging in issues not only on this forum of keralabrethren and in the local assemblies becomin so puffed up and only intoxicated with what they know rather than having the mind of Christ and clothing Christ..
it is highly shameful on the part of brothers and of no value whatsoever to have dishonoured the Lord's name in conducting in this manner.
you must individually ask God's forgivness and be restored before putting forth any more of posts. its a shame to see your conduct on a public web site as this and fighting on issues pertaining to His name in an unworthy manner..
will be remembering in prayers that the Lord and His Lord ship may indeed be true and real to you rather than indulge in vain babblings without having the mind of Christ
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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 3:36:50 AM Close
i also wonder bro jcp you are silent.. if you know things why dont you specify.. rather seeing these brothers fighting.. i having wantin to know what is there in the thread you mentioned "brethren.in" went there and nothing was posted there.. please bro. if you know things do post them for the GLory of God..
it won't take much to cut and copy and paste what you have written elsewhere to be put here as well...
this is a very humble request..
thank you..
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 12:05:31 PM Close

Thank you brother Paulsmathew for asking me why I am silent. The reason is obvious -- I am no longer interested in posting in an unmoderated forum.

Interestingly, all these people who attack doctrines, the brethren, the brethren movement, Bible, doctrine of creation, etc are not interested in coming to the moderated forum, else I would have written more there.

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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 8 Jan 2008 2:44:08 AM Close
thank you brother johnson.. for that kind reply..
i would like to know more about what the witness lee faction believes in.. is it possible..for you to help me..
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 8 Jan 2008 6:26:37 AM Close
Dear brother PaulSMathew

Witness Lee's group is a dangerous, deceptive, and bullying cult. If you wish to know more, please come to the moderated froum.

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Reply by : csam   View Profile   Since : 12 Mar 2008 5:31:03 PM Close
Dear brother drjcp,
You have not answered to the questions posted on 9thMarch in the moderated forum.
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