KeralaBrethren.net
New User? Register Today!
Registered Users, LOGIN
What we believe (Eng) What we believe (Mal) About Us Contact Us
Forums Home General Forum Youth Forum Sisters Forum Archives (2005-2007) Archives (2001-2004)
Listing of Brides Listing of Grooms
Assemblies in Kerala Evangelists in India Instituitions in India
Christian Albums Christian Songs
Audio Sermons Bible Wallpapers Brethren Links KB History (Eng) KB History (Mal)

K E R A L A  B R E T H R E N
General Forum (2005 - 2007)

Forums Home ::
This Message Forum is to discuss spiritual topics only. Please avoid personal or assembly matters.
Let us use this facility for our spiritual enrichment and for bringing glory to our Lord almighty.
Webmasters reserve the right to delete any topic or posting partly or completely from this forum.
View Topics ::

Go to bottom of the page

# 01420 :  WORSHIP AND ITS CHARACTERISTICS (1)
Dear readers,

In one of the threads ‘samm’ wrote the following – “I had once started a thread on WORSHIP DURING MARRIAGES AND FUNERALS. After some discussion was carried out on it, the thread was deleted. In that discussion Tomj made a remark which hurt me.”

Dear ‘samm’, I sincerely apologize for my whimsical remark that hurt your feelings. I didn’t look back to see what it was but I do have some recollection of it. Your thread appeared soon after an article appeared in the ‘Suvisheshakan’ magazine, expressing similar sentiment. No matter what I wholeheartedly apologize.

I initiated a thread afterwards and we had some discussion relating that subject and I prepared an article and sent to Suvisheshakan magazine about six months ago. For some reason, that article was not chosen to be published. Since this topic was raised, even in a different context, I thought I would post the copy of the article I sent to the magazine here. Please read it no prejudice and see if it is line with the scriptures; it could be different from the traditional views we had.

[When I prepared the article I edited it to appear as part one and two, in two different issues. Let me keep the same format; you will see the exact replica of what I sent out to have it published, except my full name. If there is any other magazine interested to publish it you may do so, provided it is published in its entirety with no editing. Please inform me prior to it ‘tomj3162000@yahoo.com’. Obviously Suvisheshakan magazine could have found this too controversial or disagreeing to their stand; and I do respect it.]


Contd.

Post by : tomj  View Profile    since : 10 Oct 2007


Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:10:55 AM Close
WORSHIP AND ITS CHARACTERISTICS
XXXXXXXXX (Name) USA
(Part one of two)


[This is a two part article. The first part would cover; (1) What is worship? (2) What does it mean to say ‘worship in truth and spirit’? (3) The scope and meaning of the scripture, ‘every knee shall bow’. The second part would cover; (1) What is formal and informal worship? (2) Do we have the authority to deny the opportunity to formal worship to a child of God? (3) Is it possible to worship without the Lord’s Supper? (4) The early Christians – their pattern of worship & some concluding remarks.]

INTRODUCTION

Can we have ‘worship’ at weddings and at funerals? This has been a subject greatly discussed on the electronic and printed media among the Brethren. The concern was how can someone get up and say, ‘let us worship God’ and have everyone stand up and sing songs or pray especially when unbelievers are present? Isn’t this desecrating the very word ‘worship’? How can we call out and say ‘let us worship’ except at the Lord’s Supper? Then there are some who think wherever there is singing, whether as congregational or by a professional group, it becomes ‘worship’.

Most of us grew up addressing the Lord’s Supper service as ‘Aaradhana Yogam’ (worship meeting) and we
still do. But the Lord’s command when He instituted this act of observance was to “do this in remembrance of Me.” So, a more precise title for this meeting could have been either as ‘Lord’s Supper’ or ‘Remembrance meeting’. By addressing the Lord’s Supper meeting as ‘Aaradhana Yogam’, to some extent, restricted our understanding of the meaning of worship. Our ‘Aaradhana Yogam’ started focusing on one aspect of worship and unknowingly made us to think that it is the ‘worship’. Because of this constricted focus we feel uneasiness referring to anything but the Lord’s Supper, as worship. We will go over very briefly what the Bible speaks of worship.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:11:21 AM Close
Regarding the public call to worship at a wedding or even at funerals, some may say, “Our forefathers never did this way!” “It is becoming like Roman Catholics!” “It is becoming like Pentecostals!” “They shout Alleluia” and so on. It is true that some of our Pentecostal friends would say ‘Alleluia or praise the Lord’ without giving much thought into it; with or without reason; in season and out of season. But that doesn’t mean those words should be ‘anathema’ from the Brethren vocabulary. They are very biblical words. The unbiblical teachings of the Pentecostals and Charismatics on the person and work of the Holy Spirit along with other deceptive tactics of ‘healing ministries’ are to be discarded – but not to the extent of eliminating of the genuine scriptural ‘Alleluias’ from our mouths!

WHAT IS WORSHIP?

The key to worship is ‘recognizing someone of their rightful authority, someone as greater than us’. When we worship God, we recognize and ‘own’ Him as our God – God who is infinitely greater than us. Only you are worthy of honor, …. is what we hear in the heavenly worship (Rev 4:11). This heavenly worship in Revelation typifies the ultimate form of believer’s worship.

Reverence and gratitude are two emotions that make one fall down before God in spirit and truth. Unless we have these emotions, we cannot truly worship God. More than the posture of bowing down, our hearts should show the attitude of worship. The posture should follow the heart. When we acknowledge the greatness of God and our inability to stand on our own merits prompt us to fall before Him and worship. Since external actions are unimportant in Christian worship, there is no rule regarding whether we should sit, stand, fall down, be quiet, or sing praises loudly while in corporate worship. No one should judge others by any of these externals, nor watch what others are doing or not doing; nor saying or not saying.

Contd.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:12:09 AM Close
(a) WORSHIPPING IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH.

Often our appreciation of the real import of what Scripture says is hampered by our familiarity with the words and expressions involved. This phrase is regularly employed by us. So we assume that we understand what Scripture means by it. I have heard of “worshipping in spirit and truth” as long as I can remember. But time and again I have had to think about what it really meant.
John 4:20-26 "Our fathers worshiped in this mountain and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH." (Note: I capitalized for emphasis.)

The woman from Samaria spoke as if the major issue between her people and his was that they disagreed on where to worship. The Lord answers her that, that is not the crucial issue. You should worship the true God: “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know.” Worship “in truth” has to be worship of the true God.

He then addresses the matter that she presented as the foremost issue: place of worship. “An hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.” For the moment, true worship is linked to place (Jerusalem). But a time is coming when the physical location will become irrelevant, for true worship happens in the spiritual realm. In fact, he tells her, that coming hour is already here.

Contd.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:12:44 AM Close
So, our worship in Spirit and truth is the sincere acknowledgment, by word and deed, of the infinite majesty of God, out of a genuine knowledge of Him, and through the operation of God’s Spirit in our lives.

The Brethren have given their own specialized nuance and understanding to this phrase, and employ it with the conviction that “worship in truth and Spirit” is what routinely happens at the weekly remembrance meeting. A mere verbal acknowledgement of this great truth is not what the Lord is seeking from His worshippers. What most of us need to realize is worship, as taught in the Bible, or even more specifically in the New Testament, is much more than the remembrance meeting. Worship is a life lived to God, which continually acknowledges God in word and deed.
(b) EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW BEFORE HIM

In Phil 2: 9-11 we read; “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” This includes all that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. There is a demand that all should worship God formally.

When Satan and his angels bend their knees, it is out of the necessary requirement and not a voluntary submission to God’s rightful authority as believers do today. It becomes an inevitable event. When Satan tempted Lord Jesus Christ as we read in Matt 4:10; “You shall worship the LORD your God and Him only you shall serve,” it is possible that the Lord had Satan’s ultimate surrender to Him also in consideration.

[The end of part one; to continue in the next issue]

Contd.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:13:47 AM Close
[This is a two part article. In the first part we covered; (1) What is worship? (2) What does it mean to say ‘worship in truth and spirit’? (3) The scope and meaning of the scripture, ‘every knee shall bow’. In the second part we would cover; (1) What is formal and informal worship? (2) Do we have the authority to deny the opportunity to formal worship to a child of God? (3) Is it possible to worship without the Lord’s Supper? (4) The early Christians – their pattern of worship & some concluding remarks.]


WORSHIP IN FORMAL AND INFORMAL SETTINGS

1. FORMAL

Worship can be done in formal and informal settings. A proper understanding of these would relieve us of much tension. In both cases only believers with a worshipful heart can worship God. Formal setting is what we see in an Assembly gathering, most likely on a Sunday, with the breaking of the bread by submitting to the Lord’s command. Those with worshipful obedient hearts can worship God at the ‘Lord’s Table’ corporately. God has only children and no grandchildren. So, even in such formal settings, even among the baptized believers, some might not be worshipping God in an acceptable manner. God knows each heart. Even in a congregation, participants need to be aware that he/she is worshiping God fully on an individual basis. How someone else is worshipping is not of great importance to another person.

Contd.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:14:39 AM Close
(a) DO WE HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DENY THE OPPORTUNITY TO FORMAL WORSHIP TO A CHILD OF GOD?

The Lord’s Supper is one of the aspects of formal worship at a corporal level. We sometimes refuse other believers from taking part of the Lord’s Table for reasons that are unscriptural. If we were to deny the participation from the Lord’s Table, it has to be for situations as we see in 1 Cor 5. It was for persistent immoral life style that was detestable; not for personal disagreements. Also, we must follow the pattern of Matthew 18: 15-19, prescribed to us by our Lord as a guideline for conflict resolution. Thoughtless denial of the Lord’s Table is unbiblical. We need to rest in the ultimate wisdom of God in this regard and use extreme caution knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ has invited His children to partake of these emblems and no individual should have the audacity to deny it unless gross continuous sinful pattern is found in a person and the proper steps as we see in Matthew 18 is thoroughly followed. When a person is denied the Lord’s Supper, as we see in 1 Cor 5:5, he or she is turned over to Satan so that the sinful nature could be destroyed and his or her spirit be saved. This is a very serious step and it has to be taken with great care on the part of the leadership, lest they deprive the Lord’s Supper to someone the Lord has invited and given the privilege to partake off.

When our Lord instituted the Lord’s Supper, He did not exclude Peter who within few hours had denied the Lord. Knowing fully well what Peter would do the Lord Jesus Christ said, ‘with fervent desire I have desired to eat’ with His disciples, including Peter who later denied the Master (Luke 22:14). This must be the overriding attitude we should have when sharing the Lord’s Supper with others. Great deal of care must be given when we deny the Lord’s Supper to His children. Beware that you are making a decision on behalf of God and be sure that His blessings be upon such drastic disciplinary measure.


Contd

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:15:25 AM Close
Matthew 18:18; “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven;” is the authority given to the leadership of a local gathering, provided all the previous steps are taken. But far too often, we deny the participation from the Lord’s Supper as the first step of disciplinary action, which in fact should be the very last and reserved for gross sins and for putting someone out of fellowship.

2. INFROMAL WORSHIP.

Worship in an informal setting is frequently seen in the Bible. Matt 14:33, we see disciples who were terrified by the storm ‘worshipped {KJV} Jesus Christ in the boat saying, “You are the Son of God.” This recognition is worship. John 9:38 – The blind man who was healed by Jesus said, “Lord I believe and he worshiped Him.” Here his belief made his worship possible. John 20:28 – Apostle Thomas recognized Jesus Christ as, “my Lord and my God.” Such declaration of closeness, fellowship and acknowledgement of Lord Jesus Christ’s rightful place and authority over people is worship. Matt 28:9; we see the women worshipping the risen savior; “So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.” Ps 86:5 – The psalmist acknowledged God as the ‘forgiving, abundant in mercy to all who call upon Him’; there is worship.

Moses was able to worship God when he acknowledged Him (Ex 34:6-7) And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation.”

Contd.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:15:56 AM Close
(a) IS IT POSSIBLE TO WORSHIP WITHOUT THE LORD’S SUPPER?

There are some who may think unless there is the breaking of bread service (remembrance service), that meeting cannot be considered worship. Yet in1 Cor. 11, where the Lord’s Supper is addressed, we don’t even see the word ‘worship’. That doesn’t mean that the observance of the Lord’s Supper is not worship; following one of the ordinances given to the church is our obedience to God and it becomes worship. Same way, a person gets baptized, there is worship of obedience. We are asked to observe the Lord’s Supper often; ‘as often as you do this’. For this reason we do it regularly, every Sunday. We are asked to ‘pray without ceasing’; there is worship in prayer. In the Old Testament we see Hannah worshipping God in prayer (1 Sam 1:14)

Col 3:16 – ‘Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.’- There is worship in singing. Again, Ps 66:4 ‘All the earth shall ‘worship’ You and sing praises to You; They shall sing praises to Your name.” Ps 95: 6-7 ‘Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker. For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture, And the sheep of His hand.’ – When we declare our dependence upon God as we see here, there is worship. There are great many such examples in the scriptures.

Contd.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:16:21 AM Close
(b) THE EARLY CHRISTIANS – THE PATTERN OF WORSHIP

We see the early Christians in Acts 2:42 “And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.” There is worship in each of these – learning / teaching; fellowship; breaking of the bread & prayers. These are various aspects of worship. Here in Acts 2:42, the breaking of bread is very much a part of worship, but that in itself did not make the worship complete. Also, the scriptures do not demand that unless all four aspects are there the worship would be incomplete by any means. But scripture teaches that without personal and individual worship in our life, there cannot be a corporal worship. Worship is a life-style, our daily walk. Anything we do, audible or inaudible, expressive or non-expressive can contribute to our worship.

Therefore, could someone call for worship, when unbelievers are present? I will not say such a call is inappropriate. If it is anything, it would be the herald of what to expect soon by the unbelievers. Such calls could just be the preview of things to come! The light emanates from our worship including the Lord’s Supper observance should not be hidden under the ‘basket, but be placed on the lamp-stand.’ We have no reason to shy away from expressing our devotion to the only true God, before whom every knee must bow. So, if someone calls out at a wedding ceremony or similar occasions, ‘let us worship’, will that be against the scriptures? Also, just by calling out, ‘let us worship’ at a wedding ceremony or similar occasions or at a Christian musical concert, would make such activities ‘acceptable worship’ to God? Do we have to have the Lord’s Table every time we worship? Decide it for yourself!

Contd.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 10 Oct 2007 8:16:58 AM Close
CONCLUSION

When we show love, contentment, joy, patience, respect, compassion, submissiveness, exercise proper authority, fear of God etc. in our life, we are worshipping God, if we have a relationship with Him through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ When we obey God, not out of fear or obligation, but out of our love to Him as our heavenly Father, everything we do could be counted as worship. When we eat a delicious meal we can worship Him by recognizing His provision. When we sleep well, we can worship Him by recognizing that God is the one who is giving us sleep, rest, peace and protection.

Out of the 168 hours of a week we devote two to three hours for corporate worship where we audibly praise (collectively) and share our thankfulness to God. Unless we have the rest of the 165 hours of personal worship, we are just wasting our time at the corporate worship, by degrading it to be just routine act and done out of ‘obligation’. The breaking of bread, singing, sharing etc. are only a small part of worship – a mere one in fifty sixth of our time (168 hours divided by 3). God is more concerned about the 165 hours our life. It is tragically true that even the three hours we devote, our lips could be moving but our hearts are far from it. Sometimes we sing and at the end of the song we wonder what we just sung.

God showed what He is looking for from man, even in the fist chapters of Genesis. He searches the heart. He denied Cain’s offering, not because he presented something form the ground (and not a living animal) but because his attitude was not worshipful, which brought hatred from God and lead to disaster. In the New Testament Jesus commended the widow’s mite. She had the true ‘worshipful heart’. May the Spirit of God equip each of us to be true worshippers of Him!

Regards,

Tom J

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : rtdaniel   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2007 10:04:50 AM Close
Dear Tom j.
Thank you for the article on worship. Our people though claim to have the best knowledge on the scriptural teaching, heve failed tragicaly to understand some of the basicks.We have been trying to teach this through our magazine Insigt India. It is sad to see how we are pron to follow the tradetions rather than undrstanding the truth and practice it.
There are many such topicks which we need to address and make our young people understand. See "From the Publisher's desk" in Vol.13,No4 of Insight India.
May God bles you
R.T.Daniel
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 4:23:22 PM Close
Aman,

What is it that you seek on this forum? You appear to put the Lord Jesus Christ on the same level as your other strange gods. In the light of God's Word this blasphemous. Do you not realise this?

John Miller

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 4:26:35 PM Close
Correction to last post: Insert the word "is" before "blasphemous".

J.M.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2007 2:56:00 AM Close
"aman",

Would you care to answer my questions before continuing with any further contributions?

John Miller

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 27 Mar 2008 8:28:31 PM Close
Dear brother Tomj,

Thanks for your detailed explanation on worship at public places.. Personally speaking i disagree with the worship during marriage & funerals due to the below reasons

1. All the nominal christians follow the practice of conducting marriage on Sundays with Holy service... Now a days our weddings are also becoming like that... the only difference is that it is not on Sundays... but very soon we will have a practice of conducting marriage in between breaking of bread....

2. We invite all our friends and relatives for attending marriage not for worship.... Why are we forcing them to attend the worship by asking all of you stand up 'Let us praise God'... This will result majority of them standing outside (just like we see on Temple's and nominal churche's) during the marriage service..

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 28 Mar 2008 2:44:45 PM Close
Dear mithun2,

I appreciate your comments. Frankly, I don’t know exactly what is going on in Kerala that is creating much havoc in regard to worship. I kept on reading in some magazines even after I wrote this article, debates on worship. The article I posted must be about nine months old now, since I wrote. I tried to give a biblical perspective to this subject.

For further clarification I do have few questions also. I sincerely hope someone could write objectively and impartially, without agreeing or disagreeing to either side, what goes in Kerala in relation to worship.

My question to you – you wrote above: “All the nominal Christians follow the practice of conducting marriage on Sundays with Holy service... Now a days our weddings are also becoming like that... the only difference is that it is not on Sundays... but very soon we will have a practice of conducting marriage in between breaking of bread....”

You are suggesting that some denominations follow the practice of conducting weddings on Sundays with Communion service. I can fully understand that part. Then you are saying ‘our weddings are also becoming like that’. This should mean we (Brethren, I suppose) are also conducting weddings on Sundays. But you qualified it by saying ‘the only difference is that it is not on Sundays’.

So, if the charge is against conducting weddings on Sundays and we (Brethren) are not doing it on Sundays, what is there to disagree on? I just want to know what it is; I am not trying to belittle the concern. I simply do not understand. But you mentioned in the next sentence ‘but very soon we will have a practice of conducting marriage in between breaking of bread....’. Are we afraid of this potential danger?

Again, my quandary is just genuine. I am not trying to justify or condemn anything here. What is getting done in Kerala that is so offensive in the name of worship? Can someone give an unbiased report?

Regards,

Tom J

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 4 Apr 2008 3:07:41 PM Close
Hi everyone,

I asked -- "What is getting done in Kerala that is so offensive in the name of worship? Can someone give an unbiased report?"

Can someone help?

Tom J

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 7 Apr 2008 12:13:21 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

I was recently listening to the late Adrian Rogers on radio. He is known for making statements that help one understand the teaching well and also keep the teaching in memory.

While teaching the book of revelation, he quickly said in passing, regarding, what is worship? This is what he said:

"Worship is us responding to God with everything we have, for everything that God is."

I thought that was a beautiful expression that captures the key meaning of worship. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 7 Apr 2008 10:46:02 PM Close
Tom J,
Sitting in US, you want an un-biassed report of kerala!?? (Sounds like Congress High Command in Delhi asking reports from states)
What are you upto?
Why dont you travel down to kerala and have first hand knowledge - visit some assemblies, attend some marriages and even some funerals if you get an oportunity.
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Apr 2008 10:44:56 AM Close
Dear Moses,

"Worship is us responding to God with everything we have, for everything that God is." I don’t think I can improve upon that observation. Now we need get out of our legalistic approach and truly worship.


Tom J

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Apr 2008 10:55:28 AM Close
Dear kumbanadan,

You wrote

“Tom J,
Sitting in US, you want an un-biassed report of kerala!?? (Sounds like Congress High Command in Delhi asking reports from states)” – Wow! You made my sincere request sound very bad!

I was just responding to the comments addressed to me by ‘mithun2’ with a follow up request.

Throwing insult at a brother you never met or had much interaction doesn’t speak well of the land of ‘kumbanadu’! Who knows you and I could be physically related also; but for sure, spiritually!

Then you asked - What are you upto?

I think I made myself very clear. Few more details - I read March issue of ‘High range Echo’ and they devoted most of it on 'worship' but failed to let the readers know what they are trying to establish. Also, they said they will devote the April issue in its entirety on this subject. Since ‘mithun2’ specifically addressed this issue to me on March 27th I didn’t think it would be inappropriate to ask this question.

Then – ‘Why dont you travel down to kerala and have first hand knowledge - visit some assemblies, attend some marriages and even some funerals if you get an oportunity.”

I will be glad to. But I do have some problems.. Who will pay my bills here? I still need to work! Attending weddings are fine.. But I am not being invited for any. Funerals are hardly been prescheduled. Visiting Assemblies is one of my passions. But I don't know how many people would truly like me speak? I am an unconventional speaker just as my writings would testify.

So, easier solution is someone who would be kind enough to let me and other readers know what the big ‘hoopla’ is going on there. It is just a sincere request. I am known as a straight shooter with hardly any hidden agenda.

After all this web-site is 'KERALABRETHREN.NET' right?

Tom J

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 8 Apr 2008 12:44:14 PM Close
Dear brethren,

I believe that worship is the highest level of the enjoyment of our relationship with Divine Persons. We see that exemplified in Romans 8:15. The use of the word "Abba" there signifies an intimacy demonstrated by our Lord Jesus himself in Mark 14:36. I speak reverently, I trust, but understand that the expression is equivalent to our expression "Daddy" (I do not know if this title is used by children in India).

It is of great importance to note that the Lord's usage of the title is at the time of His most severe testing. In Psalm 4:1 David says, "Thou hast enlarged me when I was in distress...". Surely the ultimate triumph of tribulation or testing that the saints of God are called to pass through would be response to Divine Persons in worship now and eternally. I speak very humbly since I know so little in personal experience.

Your brother in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 8 Apr 2008 2:05:14 PM Close
Dear Bro. John,

The expression "Daddy" is used in India. I don't think such an intimacy can be had by the children of God when addressing the Father in heaven. The Father in heaven is not, according to my understading, equivalent to 'Daddy'. The Father in heaven has given us the privilege to call him, as "Abba, Father". Jesus is the one and Only Son of God. We have the prvilege to be called as Children of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I heard Late Pastor Adrian Rogers's messages several times. His messages are wonderful and they penetrate right in to our hearts. Worship is truly recogising and honoring the Father in heaven, for WHO IS, and WHAT HE IS, and WHAT HE HAS GIVEN TO US through His one and only Son Jesus Christ.


Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : spectator   View Profile   Since : 8 Apr 2008 3:17:41 PM Close
Tomj,

It is not to your asking for information, but to the probably misunderstood term “report” that threw curve in the conversation. Neither of you tomj/kumbanadan need not get offended.

Peace!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 8 Apr 2008 6:14:00 PM Close
The manner in which Kumbanadan questioned Tom J is unbecoming of a believer and rather disrespectful. I notice that he has disdain for anything that is different from his "kumbanadan" traditions.

If he has a few wedding invites, kindly pass it along so we can make use of it. Let us know of any funerals we can attend also (please inform 2 months in advance as flight booking will be hard and expensive).

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 9 Apr 2008 3:47:54 AM Close
Dear "asdpoilkj",

Let me make it clear that I was not suggesting that it would be suitable to address our Heavenly Father as "Daddy". If you read my post you will see that. I stand by what I wrote.

A friend of mine who was preaching locally two weeks ago recounted an experience he had when visiying Israel recently. When he had just got off the plane one of his fellow-passengers, an Israeli, was greeted by his little girl. As she ran forward she called out loudly, "Abba!"

Yours in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 9 Apr 2008 5:00:43 AM Close
Dear bro. John,

I never had the thought of kneeling down to my earthly father as I intimately called him, 'Daddy', and talked to him or requested something from him. I honored him, respected him, but never stood in awe before him, with such reverence as I bow down to my heavenly Father, when I worshipped him or prayed to him, calling Him as "Abba", "Father". I thank my "Father" in heaven for giving me the privilege to call him, as "Abba". In all my days, and in all my ways, I acknowledged my heavenly "Father" as the Only first in my life.

I felt a difference between the earthly father and the "Father" in heaven.

Greetings to you.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 9 Apr 2008 11:21:23 AM Close
Dear brothers,

Though I also don't refer to my heavenly Father as "Daddy" as I am not comfortable and cannot compare Him with my earthly father, I have seen few people refer to our heavenly Father as "Daddy". When I initially heard this, I felt it was something wrong. However, when I thought about it, I don't think I can find fault if they referred to our heavenly Father as "Daddy" in all sincerity and respect.

Consider that "Abba" is the hebrew equivalent of our english Title "Daddy" or any title addressed to your father in any language. When Paul makes such a statement, I believe he is implying that the same freedom we have to approach our earthly father calling him "Daddy", we can also approach our heavenly Father calling him "Daddy" or "Father" (Abba, Father) .i.e (Daddy, Father).

Correct me if I am wrong on this. I thought about this sometime back and felt in light of the hebrew title Abba which is equivalent to our english title "Daddy" or "Pappa" etc.

Hence, if someone with sincerity and respect addresses our Father in Heaven as "Daddy", "Pappa" etc, I don't think I have the liberty to find fault in him.

In Christ,

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 3:13:40 AM Close
Dear brethren,

In order that the matter should be absolutely clear and without doubt of any kind, I did not suggest that we should address God the Father as "Daddy", and I am not suggesting it now. We must at all times approach God with the utmost reverence and godly fear.

I drew attention to the the force and character of the word "Abba", pointing out, correctly I trust, that it is a form of address that signifies intimacy and personal affection between the user and the One who is the object of address. When we take part in a discussion on the things of God we do well to read carefully what others write so that we do not misrepresent their words or intent. For instance, "kumbanadan's" remarks to brother Tom Johns, albeit unintentionally, evinced this tendency.

Your brother in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 7:04:29 AM Close
Dear Readers,

I have certain questions with regard to "Daddy" and "Father."

Is the noun "Daddy" a title or a relationship?

Is the noun "Father" a title or a relationship?

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 8:45:24 AM Close
Dear brother George,

If I may I will answer your questions simply. Both "Daddy" and "Father" are titles used within a relationship by either a son or a daughter. "Daddy" signifies to me a closeness that may, and note the word "may", be not primarily inferred by using the name "Father" in a natural relationship.

For example, I never called my own father anything else but "Daddy" or more usually "Dad" as I grew up. When my brother was alive he used the same affectionate form of address. On the other hand, after I married my wife Kathleen, I started calling my father-in-law, "Father". I never called him anything else.

I fully recognise that many who only use the address "Father" do so with the greatest of affection and would never suggest that the use of either title indicates either a lack of respect on the one hand, or a lack of affection on the other. In prayer, private or public, I would only feel free to address God the Father as "Father". Christ Himself gave us the authority to do so when He said, "...my Father, and your Father...".

My reference to the title, "Abba" was to draw attention to the immensity of divine grace in bringing us into a very close and personal relationship with the One who in the glory of His being dwells in unapproachable light, but has revealed His heart of love and His purpose to eternally bless us, by bringing us into the same relationship enjoyed by Christ Himself. It is beyond human imagination!

Your brother in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 9:27:36 AM Close
I would not like to critisise or condemn anybody for use of the word, "Father" or "Daddy". I write, as I think, about these words.

"Father" ususally denotes a filial relationship indicating the relationship of a father and own son. "Daddy" is usually used to call earthly father by affection. As far as I know, in India, no one calls earthly father or father-in-law as "Father". It presents an idea of ridicule. I never wrote or addressed my earthly father or father-in-law as "Father". I always called my dad as "Daddy" and my father-in-law as "Appa". (Both are no more now). I could never think of calling my father-in-law or write to him as "Dear Father" or "Dear Father-in-law". I felt it like disrespecting them.

Apostle Paul was referring to bonded slave being released from his bondage of sin to be given a privilege of calling the "Father" in heaven as "Abba, "Father". (Romans 8:15) We could not think of becoming equal in heritage with Jesus with Father in heaven, if we strictly consider Romans 8:14-17. Contrary to this, Jesus was calling the "Father" in heaven by relationship before bearing our sin while praying in "Gethsemene". I can not think of having such freedom as Jesus had with the "Father" in heaven. I need to honor and bow down when I call "Father" in heaven when I call him as "Abba", but when I called my dad as "Daddy" I did not need to bow down to him any time. Asking if it is noun or title is only for generating an argument and dispute.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 10:59:47 AM Close
Dear brother George Koshy,

Perhaps you have some thoughts on this matter yourself. I am sure that you can contribute to our profit, and I for one, do not subscribe to the idea that you were seeking an argument in your enquiry.

Your brother in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 11:11:00 AM Close
Dear brother Tom Johns,

You started this thread and your opening dissertations on worship and its characteristics were very helpful and thoughtfully laid out. Perhaps you would care to give us some thoughts on Gal.3:6-7.

I also await brother Koshy's contribution with interest.

Your brother in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 11:40:13 AM Close
Dear brother John Miller,

I was trying to turn the discussion from our daily use of the words “Daddy” and “Father” to that from the scriptures. Of course, we may find it difficult to do this, especially when we are discussing subjects like this. It is because we are so familiar with these terms and find it difficult to separate our daily use with the spiritual use.

If we think, we will realize that “Daddy” is a proper word to address a father in the informal manner. When we talk about strangers, we may hesitate to say about, “My daddy,” but will talk about “My father” without any hesitation. “Father” is the formal expression of our ancestor(s) and we do use it in that manner.

In Hebrew, the word is AB, and it means ‘ancestor.’ Therefore, it is translated as ‘father.’ In Greek, the corresponding word is PATER and has the same meaning. In Mark 14:36 we see these two words in the same verse, equating one to the other.

Is it spiritually correct to address God as “Daddy?”

In Matthew28:19, we read the name of God. The “Father” is given there as the name of the triune God. Do we have the authority to change the formal name of God, “Father,” to another informal word, “Daddy?” I do not think that I have that courage or freedom, to do so. He is my God, who loved me so much and made me His son through His Son – my Lord Jesus Christ.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 12:28:45 PM Close
Dear brother George,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written. Please give us your thoughts on Galatians 3:6. The two titles "Abba" and "Father" are placed together. Why?

Your brother in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 1:58:23 PM Close
Dear brother John Miller,

Should we include Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6 along with Mark 14:36 on this discussion?

If you agree, please allow me some time.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Apr 2008 2:12:31 PM Close
Dear brother George Koshy,

That will be excellent. Please consider these three scriptures and give us your impressions of them.

Your brother in Christ,

John

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Apr 2008 9:33:26 AM Close
Dear brother John Miller,
Part-1

Let us consider the three verses in the chronological order of Mark14:36, Galatians 4:6, and Romans 8:15. In all these places, the expression in the original language is, “ABBA, PATER.” It is translated as, “Abba, Father.”

Mark 14:36 is from the prayer of our Lord Jesus Christ. In that prayer, as a Man, He surrenders His will to that of the Father’s in connection with drinking the cup and not the baptism. The cup stands for the internal sufferings of our Lord for us. We see that in Gethsemane and all the way on the cross. As a man, He cried, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” We may make it to think in connection with what the Jews and the Romans did. No, it was what the Father did to His only begotten Son for us, because the Father loved us so much. What man gave was the baptism, the outward sufferings. As a Man, He prayed, “Abba, Father …,” about the impending separation of the Father and the Son, the real death of our Lord Jesus Christ, on whom the Father was well pleased, as the Man. In 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are told that we should be imitators of Christ. Our Lord Jesus Christ used the Hebrew or Aramaic along with the Gentile word for Father in His prayer, “Abba, Father.” He did not limit it to the Jewish expression only. His internal sufferings were for both the Jews and the Gentiles, without discrimination.

Galatians 4:6 tells us about the dynamics of what and how we address the Father. It is the Holy Spirit that was sent by God to be in our hearts that makes us to call aloud, “Abba, Father,” This is patterned after the Lord Jesus Christ and is in unison with 1 Corinthians 11:1.

In Romans 8:15, it is because of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of adoption, we call aloud, “Abba, Father.” This is also patterned after the Lord Jesus Christ and is in unison with 1 Corinthians 11:1.

(To be cont. Part-2)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Apr 2008 9:34:18 AM Close
Dear brother John Miller,
Part-2

In Romans and Galatians, the Greek word used is the same and is translated as “cry.” The literal meaning is to call aloud, like a raven, croaking. From the epistles, we come to know that those who are adopted into the family of God will address the Father as, “Abba, Father.” This could happen only by the help of the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of adoption, who resides in our hearts. There are equivalent words in other languages. In English, it is “Father,” and it is the formal manner of addressing our ancestors. The English word, “Daddy,” is an informal way of addressing our ancestors. In Malayalam, the formal words are “Achan” or “Pithavu.”

Could we address God using informal words? Hebrew 12:28-29 tell us that we should not. Some may use about the boldness that we should have in approaching the throne of grace, to be informal in addressing God in our prayers. In this connection, let me say this: the disciples used to address the Son of man as, “Teacher (Master – KJV) and Lord.” On the night in which He was betrayed, our Lord Jesus Christ told them that they should address Him as, “Lord and Teacher (Master – KJV)” (John 13:13-14). This formal addressing was required of traitors like Judas Iscariot. God demands formality, when we approach the throne of grace in boldness. This formality is the direct evidence of being lead by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of adoption, who is our hearts. Those who overrule, this guidance of the Holy Spirit may claim the right to use other words of convenience to show their boldness. Let us not be that bold. We should behave as the children of God, adopted to His family, to call Him our Father. The only begotten of the Father, the Son, did so. All we have to do is to follow Him. Then we could sing, “Follow, follow, I will follow Jesus …”

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 11 Apr 2008 10:10:17 AM Close
Dear Bro. Miller,

I noticed your request to me earlier in regard to Gal 4:6. I am glad Bro Koshy expounded on it. If I find more about that passage after further study I would also add such thoughts. In the meantime, I think there is enough to ponder over in what he had explained here.

Regards,

Tom J

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page



Go to top of the page

All times are GMT -5 Hours
Forums Home ::
© 2017 Sansnet.com



HOME