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# 01482 :  Sovereign God
Following is summary from a book:

"Sovereign mean paramount or supreme. There is no one higher in authority or power. But that does not mean He excercise His powder in a way that He controls/do everything in our LIVES. God has given us the freedom to choose. He has a plan for us, and He seeks to reveal that plan to us and urge us in that direction. But we choose and He doesn't make our choices for us. Many instances our wrong choices brings disaster upon us. In other cases, our problems are nothing but nature taking its course.

Sovereignty is taught today is a faith-killer. The belief that God controls/do everything makes our action irrelevant, and our efforts meaningless. Whatever will be will be.

BELIEVING THAT GOD WILLS EVERYTHING TO HAPPEN, GOOD OR BAD, GIVES US SOME TEMPORARY RELIEF FROM CONFUSION AND CONDEMNATION. IN LONG TERM, THOUGH, IT SLANDERS GOD, HINDERS OUR TRUST IN GOD AND LEADS TO PASSIVITY."

Post by : sajimaniyatt  View Profile    since : 25 Dec 2007


Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 25 Dec 2007 8:32:54 PM Close
Dear sajimaniyatt,

Could you tell us which book and the name of the author?

Thank you,

Tom J

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 4:25:45 AM Close
Dear Br. Tom,

I am sorry this is not from a book but from a leaflet and written by one Mr. Andrew.

Saji

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 7:56:33 AM Close
Dear Saji,

Is there a way you could find out Andrew's last name also. I am interested to know some more details / writings of this author.

I am asking this only becuase you have quoted part of his writing as an introduction to a new thread. Biblical sovereignity of God is an important subject and many people misunderstand and misapply. I am just curious how this autor handled it.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 1:32:50 PM Close
THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

The word "sovereign" is not used in the King James Version of the Bible. It is used 303 times in the Old Testament of the New International Version, but it is always used in association with the word "LORD" and is the equivalent of the King James Version's "LORD God." Not a single one of those times is the word "sovereign" used in the manner that it has come to be used in religion in our day and time.

Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything. Nothing can happen but what He wills or allows. However, there is nothing in the actual definition that states that. The dictionary defines "sovereign" as, "1. Paramount; supreme. 2. Having supreme rank or power. 3. Independent: a sovereign state. 4. Excellent." None of these definitions means that God controls everything.

It is assumed that since God is paramount or supreme that nothing can happen without His approval. That is not what the Scriptures teach. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13). Relatively few people are saved compared to the number that are lost. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished.

This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn't will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10), but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is the free will of man that damns them, not God.
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 1:33:43 PM Close
This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn't will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10), but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is the free will of man that damns them, not God.

People virtually have to climb over the roadblocks that God puts in their way to continue on their course to hell. The cross of Christ and the drawing power of the Holy Spirit are obstacles that every sinner encounters. No one will ever stand before God and be able to fault Him for withholding the opportunity to be saved. The Lord woos every person to Him, but we have to cooperate. Ultimately, the Lord simply enforces the consequences of people's own choices.

God has a perfect plan for every person's life (Jer. 29:11), but He doesn't make us walk that path. We are free moral agents with the ability to choose. He has told us what the right choices are (Deut. 30:19), but He doesn't make those choices for us. God gave us the power to control our destinies.

Typical teaching on the sovereignty of God puts Jesus in the driver's seat with us as passengers. On the surface that looks good. All of us have encountered the disastrous results of doing our own thing. We desire to be led of the Lord, and teaching that nothing happens but what God wills fits that nicely. However, the Scriptures paint a picture of each of us being behind the wheel of our own lives. We are the one doing the driving. We are supposed to take directions from the Lord, but He doesn't do the driving for us.
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 1:34:55 PM Close
Man has been given the authority over his own life, but he must have the Lord's direction to succeed. Jeremiah 10:23 says, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." God created us to be dependent upon Him and our independence is at the root of all our problems. As if it wasn't bad enough for man to try to run his affairs independently of God and His standards, it has been made even worse by religion teaching us that all our problems are actually blessings from God. That is a faith killer. It makes people totally passive.

James 4:7 says, "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." This verse makes it clear that some things are from God, and some from the devil. We must submit to the things that are of God and resist the things that are from the devil. The word "resist" means, "Actively fight against." Saying "Whatever will be will be" is not actively fighting against the devil.

If a person really believed that God is the one who put sickness on them because He is trying to work something for good in their life, then they should not go to the doctor or take any medicine. That would be resisting God's plans. They should let the sickness run its course and thereby get the full benefit of God's correction. Of course, no one advocates that. That is absurd. It is even more absurd to believe that God is the one behind the tragedy.

Acts 10:38 says that Jesus healed all those who were oppressed OF THE DEVIL. It was not God who oppressed them with sickness. It was the devil. It's the same today. Sickness is from the devil, not from God. We need to resist sickness and, by faith, submit ourselves to healing, which is from God through the atonement of Christ.
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 1:35:53 PM Close
I know someone is thinking, What about the Old Testament instances where God smote people with sickness and plagues? There is a lot I could say about that if I had the space, but a simplified answer to that question is that none of those instances were blessings. They were curses. God did use sickness in the Old Testament as punishment, but in the New Testament, Jesus bore our curse for us (Gal. 3:13). The Lord would no more put sickness on a New Testament believer than He would make us commit a sin. Both forgiveness of sin and healing are a part of the atonement Jesus provided for us.

Deuteronomy, chapter 28, should forever settle this question for all who believe the Word of God. The first 14 verses of Deuteronomy 28 list the blessings of God and the last 53 verses list the curses of God. Healing is listed as a blessing (Deut. 28:4). Sickness is listed as a curse (Deut. 28:22, 27-28, 35, 59-61). God called sickness a curse. We should not call it a blessing.

Knowing that God is not the author of my problems is one of the most important revelations the Lord has ever given me. If I thought it was God who killed my father when I was twelve, and some of my best friends before I was 20, if it was God who had people kidnap me, slander me, threaten to kill me, and turn loved ones against me, then I would have a hard time trusting God, if He was like that.

On the contrary, it is very comforting to know that God only has good things in store for me. Any problems in my life are from the devil, of my own making, or just the results of life on a fallen planet. My heavenly Father has never done me any harm and never will. I KNOW that.
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 1:36:49 PM Close
I am not saying that there is nothing to learn from hardships. Most of you reading this article have come to the Lord because of something in your life that overwhelmed you and caused you to turn to the Lord for help. That situation was not from God regardless of the results. It was you turning to the Lord and the faith you placed in Him that turned your life around, not the hardship.

If hardships and problems made us better, then everyone who has had problems would be better for them. Those who have the most trouble would be the best. That simply is not so.

Let me illustrate this with a story about my son, Joshua. When he was only a year old, I was loading lumber on a large truck in the heat of a Texas summer. I had Joshua with me, and he was having a big time playing in the lumber yard. By mid-afternoon, he was tired and sleepy and started to lie down in the dirt for a nap. I knew his mother wouldn't like that, so I put him in the cab of the truck to lie down and take his nap.

He had been wanting to get into that truck all day, and when I put him in there, he revived. I had to roll the windows down because it was hot, and Joshua was leaning out the windows and waving at me in the side view mirrors. I told him to lie down and even gave him a spanking, but he didn't take heed. He leaned out the window too far, fell out of the cab, hit his eye on the running board and landed on his head.

I ran up to him, prayed over him, and held him until he quit crying. Then I told him that was why I told him to lie down and go to sleep and not lean out the window. I used that situation which caused him pain, to teach him, but if Joshua would have been like the sovereignty teachers of today, he would have gone out and told all his friends that his father made him fall out of that truck to teach him to obey. That's not so. I did what I could to restrain him. I would be very hurt if that's the way Joshua thought I was.

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 1:44:19 PM Close
Likewise, I don't believe it blesses our heavenly Father for us to blame Him for all the problems that come into our lives. Sure, He will comfort us when we turn to Him in the midst of our problems, but He doesn't create the negative circumstances that hurt our lives.

God is sovereign in the sense that He is paramount and supreme. There is no one higher in authority or power, but that does not mean He exercises His power by controlling everything in our lives. God has given us the freedom to choose. He has a plan for us. He seeks to reveal that plan to us and urge us in that direction, but we choose. He doesn't make our choices for us.

In many instances, it is our wrong choices that bring disaster upon us. In other cases, our problems are nothing but an attack from the devil. In some cases, natural forces of an imperfect world cause us pain. Our tragedies are never the judgment or correction of God. Jesus came to give us abundant life. The devil came to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10). Don't ever get that confused. If it's good, it's God. If it's bad, it's the devil.

This is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity that must be understood properly if you want victory in your life. Believing that God controls everything renders a person passive. Why pray and believe for something better? Whatever God wants will come to pass. That simply is not true.

The Lord is the answer to all our problems. He is not the problem.

By Andrew Wommack

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 26 Dec 2007 9:36:31 PM Close
Dear Br. Tom,

I appreciate your personal feedbacks - not lenghty - based on the articles by Andrew if you have time.

Once I met an atheist, who asked me some questions about God especially about "ELECTION" and said if God had elected few for eternal damnation of His own choice, he is not a God who partially judges 1 Peter 1:17. I tried to get an answer to this question, we can claim try to convince our mind that ELECTION is in sovereignty of God and our above our understanding. But we understand that no one can argue before God since he is a God impartially judges.

Saji

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 27 Dec 2007 2:34:38 AM Close
Dear Saji,

I will prayerfully consider your request. But if I were to write it would be (it has to be) lengthy.

In the meantime please start studying George P Koshy's "So great salvation" from the archives of KB Net. Please take time to study it as it is not an 'easy reading' type. But it will have a lasting impact on your life and your appreciation to the very subject of 'salvation'.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 27 Dec 2007 11:12:45 PM Close
Dear Br. Tom,

Thanks for your advice. I studied a great extend in regards to security of salvation and we have many many strong verses believe in security of salvation. But I think we should consider man's FREE WILL, SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD in its real meaning, to come to conclusion. Our selection before foundation of world is a controversial subject but foreknowledge of God to be correlated to understand the reality.

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2007 8:55:48 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,
Part-1

Thank you for posting from Andrew Wommack’s booklet. I do not have any idea who he is or what he teaches. What I conclude from this booklet is very little. In the 1st part of your posting of 26 Dec 2007 13:32:50, I find certain things and need your help. Let me quote from your postings, ===<

Religion has resulted in the invention of a new meaning for the word "sovereign," which basically means God controls everything…

… It is the free will of man that damns them, not God.>>===

What was the title of the booklet? The subject on interest was the word “sovereign,” but the rest of the booklet deviated from that and went on to a discussion on “free will” and so on. I am not interested to discuss about what another person wrote. If you are interested to learn about “sovereignty of God,” I will be happy to be of help, along with Brother Tom J.

In the booklet you quoted, it is stated that the word “sovereign” is not in KJV, but is in NIV about 303 times. From the quoted passages, I presume that this word does not appear in the New Testament. If so, please provide the first ten verses in which the word “sovereign” appears in NIV. Please quote the verses rather than referring to them.

Studying the Word of God requires, the student to spend some time looking into the Word of God and not simply reading other men’s writing. After reading those writings, we should clarify what we read from the Bible. That is what we are going to do.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2007 8:56:48 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,
Part-2

I wait for your postings giving the ten verses from the Old Testament. If that word appears in the New Testament in NIV, please provide the first ten verses also. All verses should be from NIV.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2007 1:33:08 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

My original post was not intended to discuss about the booklet but just to get an idea from those interested to discuss this subject. Since Br. Tom mentioned <..Biblical sovereignity of God is an important subject and many people misunderstand and misapply. I am just curious how this autor handled it..> I just thought of mentioning the details. I am also not interested to discuss someone else writing since I don't know exactly with what spirit he wrote it.

But Br. Tom mentioned how this author handled it, I just thought of getting his comments about it.

Saji

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2007 1:37:25 PM Close
Dear Br. George P.Koshy,

I am referring following verses since you asked me but not for detailed study.

Genesis 15:2 NIV
But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit [ The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain. ] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?"

Genesis 15:8 NIV
But Abram said, "O Sovereign LORD, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?"

Exodus 23:17 NIV
"Three times a year all the men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD.

Exodus 34:23 NIV
Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 3:24 NIV
"O Sovereign LORD, you have begun to show to your servant your greatness and your strong hand. For what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do the deeds and mighty works you do?

Deuteronomy 9:26 NIV
I prayed to the LORD and said, "O Sovereign LORD, do not destroy your people, your own inheritance that you redeemed by your great power and brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

Joshua 7:7 NIV
And Joshua said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan!

Judges 6:22 NIV
When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the LORD, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! I have seen the angel of the LORD face to face!"

Judges 16:28 NIV
Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD, remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes."

2 Samuel 7:18 NIV
Then King David went in and sat before the LORD, and he said: "Who am I, O Sovereign LORD, and what is my family, that you have brought me this far?

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 29 Dec 2007 2:53:30 PM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

Thank you for the list of verses from NIV. Could you find the Hebrew word that is translated as "sovereign" in NIV and tell us what was the equivalent word used in KJV?

This is very important, because you wrote on 25 Dec 2007, "Sovereignty is taught today is a faith-killer." We should not keep any expressions that could be termed as a "faith-killer." Let us move forward to eradicate all such "faith-killer" expressions.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 29 Dec 2007 9:31:12 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

Since you asked me, eventhough I am convinced well of the meaning, I am not interested in a detailed study, but see the details below:

In old testment the word used is:
'ădônây - ad-o-noy'
the Lord (used as a proper name of God only): - (my) Lord.

In New Testment following verses are with Sovereign in NIV with meaning:
δεσπότης-despotēs-des-pot'-ace
(a husband); an absolute ruler (“despot”): - Lord, master.

Luke 2:29 NIV
"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss [ Or promised, / now dismiss] your servant in peace.

Acts 4:24 NIV
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

2 Peter 2:1 NIV
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Jude 1:4 NIV
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Revelation 6:10 NIV
They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

I am not a theologian in any language but I am convinced that GOD never uses his authority/sovereignty - whatever be the meaning - to override man's will. In Philipian 2:7 - we read he ... made no reputation -kenoō-ken-o'-o, to make empty, that is, (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify: - make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain. He neutralize his authority or Lordship in his dealing with human being.

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 31 Dec 2007 1:22:57 PM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

Thank you for telling that the Hebrew word is ADONAI and it is translated in NIV as "sovereign." You could see that this word is translated in KJV as "Lord."

you wrote on 25 Dec 2007, "Sovereignty is taught today is a faith-killer." In the light of that posting, please tell us what is the teaching about 'sovereignity' that made you to call it a "faith-killer?"

I thank you for the quotes from the New Testment. Could you tell us how that word was translated in KJV? This will give us a connection between the two versions.

You also wrote that you are not interested in a detailed study. If you are not, why are you using such terms as "faith-killer," in your posting about certain teaching that are prevalent among Christians? You have a moral obligation to explain what you wrote.

As you say that you are not interested in a detailed study, let me say this. When I read your initial posting, I thought that you made it as a poser. When you are trying to evade a detailed study, then that poser appears to be an imposer.

I hope that you will keep it as a poser and continue this discussion.

By the way, your comment on Philippians 2:7 is not correct. This we could take up, after we are finished with the "Sovereign God." Please do not bring other subjects as part of this discussion. It will confound the discussion, making it meaningless.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 1 Jan 2008 12:48:00 AM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

Thanks for your patience to give me an answer to the thread. Pl. note that I am not a poser or imposer in this thread, I mentioned it clearly that it is somebody else writing which I quoted here for comments repeat comments from others to know what are their views in this respect. I appreciate Br. Tom that he will try to get his comments. You asked me to get Hebrew word of sovereign, I provided it. If you don't mind, pl. give your comments, by informing the meaning of sovereignty from the verses quoted to you as informed by you. I am only interested in exchange of views in this matter based and not a detailed study.

If the word "faith-killer" is against any prevalent teaching, you are most welcome to provide the correct meaning based on bible. I have given the full writing of the author to avoid misunderstanding to know why he says, WRONG MEANING OF SOVEREIGN GOD, is a "faith-killer".

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Jan 2008 2:45:04 PM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

I did not say that you are a poser or an imposer. What I wrote was that your posting was a poser.

The question with respect of "faith-killer" is due to what you wrote as, ""Sovereignty is taught today is a faith-killer." I don't know what that teaching is. Now you say that it could be, "any prevalent teaching." Could you make it clear. What is the teaching you are alluding to. Here, your obligation comes into play. Please make what you wrote to be clear with respect to the Christian teaching. I cannot make assumptions about what is in your mind. Please tell us about the prevalent teaching that is in your mind that you termed as a "faith-killer."

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 1 Jan 2008 9:46:40 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,
Thanks for your clarification. I copied from the author that "wrong meaning of sovereignty, is faith killer" which is AGAINST the prevalent teaching. Inorder to explain this pl. read the my first quote from the author dtd : 25 Dec 2007 or the detailed writing thereafter. I like to have your comments about it which is against the prevalent teaching. If you are not interested to comment on someone else books or if those or not in full itself to comment pl. avoid it. I am expecting views of others who are interested to comment on it.

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2008 8:03:10 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

What is the prevalent teaching? This is the question I am asking you about. You have to tell and I am not the one to assume.

Let me quote the later half of your posting that started this thread. ---<...Sovereignty is taught today is a faith-killer. The belief that God controls/do everything makes our action irrelevant, and our efforts meaningless. Whatever will be will be.

BELIEVING THAT GOD WILLS EVERYTHING TO HAPPEN, GOOD OR BAD, GIVES US SOME TEMPORARY RELIEF FROM CONFUSION AND CONDEMNATION. IN LONG TERM, THOUGH, IT SLANDERS GOD, HINDERS OUR TRUST IN GOD AND LEADS TO PASSIVITY.">---

Now, you have to explain this quote. I cannot explain what another person wrote and published, elsewhere. You tell us what is taught and not just what was stated. This will tell us that you did studied what you read in the light of the Word of God as the Bereans did in Acts 17. Be responsible about what you read. Search the scriptures as the Lord Jesus Christ asked. Then ask the question to others for further clarifications or to increase your understanding.

Please read Romans 3:8, while you are writing about what was taught.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2008 10:17:14 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

Let me assure you that I read all your postings. How you started this thread was, "Following is summary from a book:" a summary of what was written by another is not what he wrote. Of course, if he had summarized, then it is the author's summary. He didn't, but you did.

What you wrote on your initial posting of this thread was not what you wrote on 1 Jan 2008 9:46:40 PM. Your latest posting reads, ------ I cannot find this in the six part series you posted on 26 Dec 2007 that are attributed to Anddrew Wommack. Where did you get this expression, ---<"wrong meaning of sovereignty, is faith killer?">---

On 25 Dec 2007 what you wrote was, ------

You did not copy, you summarized. These two quotes from your writings are not the same or convey the same meaning. The initial posting was a blanket condemnation of all teachings. Your author, Andrew Wommack, is not having the opinion that you attributed to him on 25 Dec 2007. From your 1 Jan 2008 posting, I conclude that you falsified Andrew Wommack. You need to explain.

I thank Brother Tom J for asking for a complete reference about your summarization.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2008 1:54:56 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

It seems that you are trying to find fault within my writing rather than giving your comments. Initially you started with the word "sovereign", I quoted various verses as requested by you. Then you asked me Hebrew word, which one also I mentioned to you. Then in the next thread you mentioned another word "faith killer" this also I explain by saying "WRONG MENAING OF SOVEREIGNTY IS FAITH KILLER", which I understood from Andrews writing. Then you started with what is meant by "prevalent teaching" etc. Now again changed the discussion and come to the conclusion, …Your author, Andrew Wommack, is not having the opinion that you attributed. Also my summarization may be right or wrong, let others decide upon it.

Since you quoted "I cannot explain what another person wrote and published, elsewhere" I am very happy for your open attitude and appreciate it. I will discuss with others who are interested and thank you for the time spent on it.

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2008 3:13:02 PM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

What I asked you on 1 Jan 2008 or earlier was about your statement, "Sovereignty is taught today is a faith-killer." This is from your posting of 25 Dec 2007. I was trying to understand your writings.

"Faith-killer" is a word that you used on the first posting of this thread. I did not deviate from what you wrote. On 1 Jan 2008 you introduced a different expression, "Wrong meaning of sovereignty, is faith killer." I did not ask anything about it before 2 Jan 2008. My posting on 1 Jan 2008 was posted on 2:45:04 PM and it did not contain the expression in question. Your posting on 1 Jan 2008 introducing this new expression was on 9:46:40 PM. this is after my posting in time. I quoted this expression for the first time on, '2 Jan 2008 10:17:14 AM.' I do not have the ability to look into your mind to write what you will write before you wrtie them. This kind of manipulation and denial of what you wrote make your postings as an imposer.

I wrote that your first posting appeared to me as a poser. A writing is considered to be a poser when it is presented as a baffling question or problem. Your posting ceased to be a poser. Now it is an imposer. An imposer writing is that which imposes a deception on the people.

You say that you quoted Andrew Wommack. I failed to read what you quoted in Andrew Wommack's writings. Even what you placed in quotation marks are not in the writing of Andrew Wommack that you posted as a six part postings on 26 Dec 2007.

Now you say that I asked you about the non-existent sentence from Andrew wommack's wrting, ---<"wrong meaning of sovereignty, is faith killer?">--- If that is what you understood, tell us how you understood it. When one places something in quotation marks, they are quoting another person. Otherwise, they should make it clear about the use of the quotation marks around what they write.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2008 9:27:49 PM Close
Dear Ejnnej,

Thanks for your comments. I started the thread not as a book review, but while reading the leaflet I thought of discussing in this thread, since mostly serious discussions are going on here. Thank you for the excerpts posted, so that others can study both way's based on Word of God.

I thank you for your comments about your belief about sovereignty. The main question raised by Andrew is that in the Word of God "SOVEREIGNTY" is not mentioned as what normally thinks in Christian Circle. I have no doubt about God's attributes likes OMNIPOTENCE OMNIPRESENCE OMNISCIENCE and His absolutely unlimited power. But the question is whether He limits His action when dealing with man against his power decision or will. I believe that God will rules this world under his absolute power during the millennium.

Saji

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 2 Jan 2008 9:37:05 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

I am not in any kind of argument with you regarding the meaning or word or words used by me in my writing. Since I am not not a theologian or a writer, you can find out so many mistakes in my words or writing. I do not want to clarify the matters still the original thread is there to comment upon.

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2008 7:09:04 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

I am not asking you to be a theologian. Being a theologian and scriptural are two diferent things. I am trying you show you about the value of being scriptural. I am asking you to provide the teaching that is "faith-killing," with respect to "sovereign God." This is the message in your initial posting. Since you started this thread with a purpose, please provide this information. Without that data, how couyld we proceed?

You have already provided enough verses from the Old and New Testaments to tell us that there is a scriptural teaching about the "Sovereign God." Therefore, no one should make a blanket statement that the teaching about "sovereignty of God" is faith-killing.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2008 7:30:59 AM Close
Dear Ejnnej,

I don't think what I mentioned is full until the next sentence also dealt with.

Saji

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Reply by : ukobserver   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2008 5:39:42 PM Close
Quote: - “Everything in this world runs according to His will. There is nothing like
Man's will. ………………………………The Will of God was trampled upon by man in the Garden of Eden itself.” Quote end. Reply by : ejnnej : 2 Jan 2008 09:38:46

Hi there
While you are going on the hot discussion, will some one explain what the meaning of it is?

Are the foreknowledge of God and the will of God having same meaning?

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2008 10:06:53 PM Close
All writing of Ejnnej is deleted from the thread. What happened?
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2008 11:15:17 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

Let me apologize first for the first thread which was not complete in itself. My first positing was based on a summary by myself from Andrew's summary of the leaflet and the same terminology "faith killer" was not used in the detailed leaflet. Lengthy discussions may be overlooked and hence I purposely reduced it a bit. But here is the paragraph which he uses the word faith killer in his summary:

"I BELIEVE SOVEREIGNTY IN ITS WRONG MEANING IS THE WORST DOCTRINE IN THE CHURCH TODAY. I KNOW THIS IS A SHOCKING STATEMENT WHICH MAY OFFEND PEOPLE, BUT THE WAY "SOVEREIGNTY" IS TAUGHT TODAY IS A REAL FAITH KILLER. THE BELIEF THAT GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING IS ONE OF THE DEVIL'S BIGGEST INROADS IN OUR LIVES. IF THAT IS TRUE, THEN OUR ACTION ARE IRRELEVANT, AND OUR EFFORTS MEANINGLESS. WHATEVER WILL BE WILL BE."

Saji

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2008 11:39:06 PM Close
The Ebook “ELECTION OF GOD” by Dr. Silas C Nair is a good book to clear the doubts regarding Sovereignty of God and free will of man.

http://www.brethrenassembly.com/Ebooks/Election_of_God.pdf


The word of God is the Faith – reviver.

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17)

Why does the enemy try to kill the faith?
Because, Faith is the condition in grace by which a sinner is translated from death to life, from hell to heaven. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” (Eph 2:8)

The enemy tried to kill the faith of disciples by showing them “apparent failure of the Sovereign God”, when the shepherd was smitten and the sheep were scattered.
“And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren”. (Luke 22:31,32)

The Lord wanted Peter to strengthen the Faith of his brethren by the word of God.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 4 Jan 2008 7:20:55 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

Thank you for your reply of 3 Jan 2008.

We know from the verses that you quoted before that God is sovereign. God is called, “Sovereign God.” This we see in both the Old and New Testaments. This is a scriptural teaching, because it is in the Scripture.

In the Scripture, we do not read anything about Church teaching. If any say that certain teaching is the Church Teaching, then that is not scripturally correct. In the Scripture, individuals are asked to be teachers and not the Church. Most teachings that are termed as Church Teachings usually leave out some pertaining aspects of the teachings. They have their own reasons to do so. On the other hand, they may add to the Scripture their own ideas, also. Therefore, it is good to verify anything we read and hear with the Scripture as the Bereans did, as written in Acts.

If God is sovereign, does He control everything? The word “control” has different meanings. One of the usages of that word is “to manage.” What did Christ say about falling of a hair? What did the Lord say about the death of a small bird? What do we read in one of the epistles about what happens to those whom God loves? This list could be expanded. Please answer these, only after finding the passages that are related to these questions.

I hope that you will continue to study the scriptures rather than the writings of men.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 4 Jan 2008 9:28:30 AM Close
Dear Readers,

I just looked at the web-site ‘josbr’ recommended to find the article by Dr. Silas Nair. In that article I read the following –

“How can the God of love predestinate vast multitudes to eternal damnation without allowing them any choice?

The extreme view of God’s sovereignty is only denial of God’s infinite love. To say that ‘the very damnation of perhaps billions foreordained by God from eternity past because it pleases and glorifies God’ is nothing but caricaturing God as a cruel sadist.” End of quotes.

Those who believe and teach correctly the Biblical Sovereignty of God do not claim – (a) God predestinate vast multitude to eternal damnation (b) God does not give the perishing ones any choice (c) deny God’s love [or Johns 3:16] (d) teach damnation of billions of people glorifies God (e) God as a sadist.

The problem with Dr. Nair’s article is that he failed to focus on the Scriptures and went ahead addressing [or attacking] some human wisdom. He utterly failed in teaching the sovereignty of God as taught in the Bible.

I would hope Dr. Koshy would be able to address some of the issues [comments from Dr. Nair] since this would require much time commitment on my part and I am rather pressed for time lately. But if there is genuine interest in studying this subject I would be willing to share and contribute as much as possible.

By ‘genuine interest’ I mean this – a willingness to forego what was heard from others and a willingness to study what the Bible teaches.

Regards,

Tom J


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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 4 Jan 2008 9:45:53 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

In regards to the falling of hair & death of a small bird, I think this comes under foreknowledge of God. I presume you are referring is Romans 8:28 about whom God loves. If so, it does not say that God causes all things.

If we go each and every verses and meaning it would become a detailed study for which I do not have time to spare. If you can get me your opinion in a nutshell, as started whether the word sovereignty referred in the bible is what like Ejnnej referred in his deleted threads.

Saji

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 5 Jan 2008 9:15:37 PM Close
JUST TO THINK ABOUT:

Sovereignty in its right meaning cannot be considered as an apparent failure of God's sovereignty. Also I don't think that extreme view of God’s sovereignty makes us denial of God infinite love. Even by considering all attributes of God, as mentioned in Philippians 2:6, He can limit His power, which is also a part His sovereignty. I mean, God cannot cease to be God, but limit in His action. Pl. thinks about the following sample verses:

We generally consider these verses as God want to get an answer from them about their sin. But I believe, like this, God limited his sovereignty and asked them:

Genesis 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?" (NIV)

Genesis4:9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" (NIV)

Following verse:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, NEITHER CAME INTO MY MIND, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. (KJV)

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it, NEITHER CAME INTO MY MIND.(KJV)

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 7:54:19 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

You wrote that you don't have time for a detailed study of the Word of God. I was encouraging you to do that. At the same time, you expect and demand that another person or persons to do detail studies to answer your questions. There is an apparent contradiction in your approach. We could see similar arrpoach in the world.

You also have time to study booklets written by men like Andrew Wommack. At the same time, you don't have time to study the Word of God in detail.

Your priorites are at the wrong places.

I was not referring to God's foreknowledge. I was referring to God's knowledge as He is a God of knowledge. You should not mix them together. You should study about what is meant by the "knowledge of God."

If you don't have time to study the Word of God, using the Word of God, from the Word of God, then I have nothing to say about that attitude.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 11:36:18 AM Close
Dear Tom J,
Part-1

I am addressing the use of the ‘Art of Rhetoric’ and the ‘Law of Complement’ in establishing certain doctrines that are not possible to be establish from the Bible. The “Free Will of Man” is one of them. We have discussed this doctrine, the Free Will of Man, in detail before. Therefore, I am not going into it.

The Art of Rhetoric by itself is not a bad tool. When it is used to establish that which is not revealed in the Bible, then it is a bad thing to do (Deuteronomy 29:29). We do find the mentioning of “predestination” in the New Testament. It is revealed to us as part of the Holy Scriptures by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Greek word translated as “predestination” is PROORIZO, pronounced as PRO-OR-ID-S’O. It is a combination of two words: PRO + ORIZO. PRO means, ‘in front of,’ ‘prior,’ or ‘before.’ It is similar to the English word ‘fore,’ as in ‘before.’ ORIZO is pronounced as HOR-ID-S’O and it means, ‘to mark out,’ ‘to bound,’ to determine,’ or ‘to appoint.’ Therefore, PROORIZO could mean any combination of the various meanings of these two words. In the New Testament, the Greek word PROORIZO appears in Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; and Ephesians 1:5, 11. These six places will give the scriptural meaning of this Greek word that is usually argued for and against “predestination.” In KJV this Greek word is translated as “predestinate” in Romans 8:29 and 30; as “predestinated” in Ephesians 1:5 and 11; as “determined before” in Acts 4:28; and as “ordained” in 1 Corinthians 2:7. In 1 Corinthians 2:7 we read about God has “ordained” the world unto our glory the wisdom of God. That is God ordained His Son, to glorify us in His Son, before the world came into existence. In other words, we could read this verse as, “But we speak the wisdom of God, in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God predestinated (PROORIZO) before the world unto our glory.” This agrees with what we read in Ephesians 1 and in Romans 8.... (Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 11:37:54 AM Close
Dear Tom J,
Part-2

... All these are in connection with the saints who are saved by faith through the grace of God. We do not read in the Word of God, the revelation of the mind and will of God to man, about men being predestinated to hell or the Lake of Fire.

I have not heard any Calvinist, those who are the real teachers; speak about a group of men being predestinated to hell or Lake of Fire by God. I have not read this either. May be, some may do that. On the contrary, those who oppose this scriptural doctrine make use of the Law of Complement and coin a question using their Art of Rhetoric. I have not seen any one quoting any writings of Calvinists. It is always similar to the one you quoted, ““How can the God of love predestinate vast multitudes to eternal damnation without allowing them any choice?”

In the Word of God, there is only one doctrine that is related to “predestination.” That doctrine is: God is the one who predestinated. This predestination was before the foundation of this world. Men and women are the recipients of this predestination. It is for glorifying us by conforming the undeserving sinners to the Son.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 12:20:00 PM Close
Dear Tom J,
Part-3

There is no complementary group that is to be associated with God's predestination for man to ask a rhetorical question about the lost sinners. When they do so, then they are asking God this question and not to man, because this question is for the sole purpose of negating one of the doctrines that are revealed by God in the scriptures. Man has no authority or power to create a complementary doctrine that is not given in the Word of God, the God-breathed scriptures. God provided a doctrine without any complement to it. That is to tell us that the use of the Law of Complement is not allowed by God in connection with that doctrine. The Law of Complement is a tool in the human logic to nullify or discredit a theory. The scriptural doctrines are God’ theory, if I may use that term, and not of man’s. When man uses the Law of Complement using his Art of Rhetoric under the rules and axioms of his fallible logic, then we are introducing new doctrines (teachings) that are contrary to God’s revelation. A non-existent complement is created to nullify a scriptural doctrine and to establish an unscriptural one in its place. We are also annulling what God has predetermined.

When one uses the Law of Complement with the help of the Art of Rhetoric, it generates a negative answer in the mind of the hearers or readers, the audience. Then the author of such questions goes on to discredit the true scriptural teaching. This is to be avoided, if we want to be scriptural.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 11:14:44 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

Thanks for your thread and I appreciate your findings about me not about the subject under discussion.

1. apparent contradictions in my approach.
2. my wrong priorities.

I am not interested to answer your comments about me but I noticed your approach to force me to accept what you think from the Word of God is correct. I am not a judge but a berean and strongly believed that the threads mentioned or quoted by me basis on Word of God. Thank you brother for your contributions to me.

Saji

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 11:15:22 PM Close
Following to think about:

1. What is the meaning of word Sovereign used in Bible?

2. Do we believe that it is our "FATE" (vidhi, or thalevarsa as called in Malayalam), when something happens in our life?

3. Can we question God for everything happens in our life? (Do we think that why God is bringing this problem in my life?)

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Jan 2008 6:57:39 AM Close
Dear Bro. Koshy,

Thank you for your postings. I would like to expand on your comments as time permits.

Reagards,

Tom J

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 9 Jan 2008 1:59:26 PM Close
Dear brethren,

I am not a scholar, only a simple student of God's word. I do feel however, that we need to be clear about the difference between God's sovereignity and the great subjects of foreknowledge and predestination.

God's sovereignity is His absolute right over all that He has created, including man, to do as He pleases, when He pleases, in the way He pleases. It is not within the province of the creature to call Him in question regarding any of His actions. In grace He may choose to reveal His intention and purpose, but He cannot be summoned to give an account by any. In Job chs. 38-41 He spells this out most clearly.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 10 Jan 2008 5:23:28 AM Close
Following explanation about Predestination and foreknowledge gives more light into this matter:
Quote:

The verse Romans 8:29 provide the key for unlocking the answer to the doctrine of predestination. Predestination is dependent on FOREKNOWLEDGE.

The word, "predestinate" means "to predetermine." "Predestinate" and its variant "predestinated" are only used four times in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1:5,11). Men have interpreted this doctrine as saying that God predetermines everything in an individual's life, including whether he will be saved or lost. This interpretation is not consistent with other doctrines or examples in scripture. This belief will destroy a person's motivation to fight evil and do good. If God predetermines everything that happens in your life, then everything that happens to you is God's will-even sin. That is not true.
This verse limits God's predestination to only those who He foreknew. This means that only those people who God knew would accept his offer of salvation have been predestined. He does not predestine people to be saved or lost. Those who He foreknew in Christ have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. As we can tell by observation, God doesn't even force that to happen. With some Christians, this will not occur until they receive their glorified bodies, but it will occur.

God gave every individual a free will, and God will not violate that free will except in judgment. Even in judgment, God is only enforcing the choices that each individual has already made of his own free will. Each person has a God-given right to go to hell if he wants to.
Understood correctly, this verse provides great reassurance to the believer that God is for them and working with them to bring them to the complete stature of the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:13).

Unquote:
Gods foreknowledge and predestination, is not taking away our free will to choose what is right and wrong.

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Jan 2008 7:18:22 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

Your posting of 10 Jan 2008 contradicts the scriptures as you try to establish what you desire using only one verse. Since you are not interested to learn in detail, I ask you to answer the following from your writings.

1. We should be discussing the doctrine related to predestination and foreknowledge in another thread. Please start one. Please explain the following in it.
a. How is the doctrine of “Predestination is dependent on FOREKNOWLEDGE.?”
b. How do you explain, “This interpretation is not consistent with other doctrines or examples in scripture. This belief will destroy a person's motivation to fight evil and do good.?”
c. How do you explain, “Those who He foreknew in Christ have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. As we can tell by observation, God doesn't even force that to happen.?”

2. How do you explain, “God gave every individual a free will, and God will not violate that free will except in judgment. Even in judgment, God is only enforcing the choices that each individual has already made of his own free will. Each person has a God-given right to go to hell if he wants to.?”

Where do you read about this free-will of man in the Word of God, the Bible? You have not given a single supporting verse. Therefore, I consider that this teaching (doctrine) of the ‘free-will of man’ is nonexistent in the scriptures. You must without a question of a doubt show this from the Bible. Since a ‘free-will of man’ is in relation to the will of God, it does question the sovereignty of God. If you disagree, please substantiate your position from the Bible. On the other hand, please answer the questions related to “predestination” on another thread. Brother John Miller has pointed out the need for this, in his postings.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 10 Jan 2008 12:44:59 PM Close
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
(1 Corinthians 1:10)

How do we write this in Greek? Some body who knows Greek honestly without referring to any book or source, or tools on the Internet, Please write how this verse is written in Greek.

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 10 Jan 2008 1:00:41 PM Close
Dear brethren,

The original post in this discussion referred to a Mr/Rev Andrew Womack. While it would not be fitting for me to question his sincerity or commital to Christ, nevertheless his writings must be judged by their adherence to God's word. He is of the pentecostal persuasion and I, for one, cannot agree that some of his teaching is in accordance with the divine record. That is all that I will say about this as it has already been discussed. Some may recall that a sister in Christ, also of the pentecostal persuasion, in the past sought to bring forward his teaching as worthy of study.

What our brother George Koshy has pointed out should be noted. We must try and not confuse one subject with another as though they mean the same. God's sovereignity is a great and wonderful reality that we can trace in all His activities. Creation, redemption, judgement, foreknowledge, predestination all bear witness to it. We cannot limit it to any one or two of these truths.

The human mind cannot encompass the glory and greatness of the One Eternal God, His omniscience, His omnipotence and His omnipresence. We can only humbly and joyfully accept that this Supreme Spiritual Being who is from Eternity and to Eternity, has revealed His purposes of love to us in the person of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yesterday I was privileged to have a small part in the burial of a distinguished and faithful servant of God. A verse of a hymn that he had chosen in advance for the occasion went thus:

"Yet I may love you too, O Lord,
Almighty as you are;
For you have stooped to ask of me
The love of my poor heart!"

Is that not a simple yet most wonderful illustration of God's sovereignity?

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 10 Jan 2008 3:17:05 PM Close
Greek (Root form) Tense

Now = de
I beseech = parakaleo
you, = humas
brethren, = adelphos
by = dia
the name = onoma
of our = hemon
Lord = kurios
Jesus = Iesous
Christ, = Christos
that = hina
ye = lego
all = pas
speak = lego
the same thing, = autos
and = kai
[that] there be = o
no = me
divisions = schisma
among = en
you; = humin
but = de
[that] ye be = o
perfectly joined together = katartizo
in = en
the same = autos
mind = nous
and = kai
in = en
the same = autos
judgment. = gnome

This is how 1 Corinthians 1:10 is written in Greek. I do not know Greek, but I know how to take the aid of tools available on Internet and write Greek. It is not a big thing to write in Greek that any body should claim great.

"In this verse the apostle enters on the discussion respecting the irregularities and disorders in the church at Corinth, of which he had incidentally heard. See 1Co 1:11. The first of which he had incidentally learned, was that which pertained to the divisions and strifes which had arisen in the church. The consideration of this subject occupies him to 1Co 1:17, as those divisions had been caused by the influence of philosophy, and the ambition for distinction, and the exhibition of popular eloquence among the Corinthian teachers, this fact gives occasion to him to discuss that subject at length, 1Co 1:17-31; 11:1-34; in which he shows that the gospel did not depend for its success on the reasonings of philosophy, or the persuasions of eloquence. This part of the subject he commences with the language of entreaty:--"I beseech you, brethren", the language of affectionate exhortation, rather than of stern command. " This is also from a Scholar. There are different views about "Predestination" and "Sovereignity".

Pride in heart that one knows more is bad.

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 10 Jan 2008 4:23:54 PM Close
There is no doubt in my heart that God is sovereign. He said, His name is: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14) He said Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (1 Timothy 6:15). These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Revelation 17:14).

We also can not question His authority. Every question that we have is also based on doubts that arise in our heart about His Omnipotence. I often think, why things that I achieved undergoing severe hardships are achieved by my friends (Christians and from other religion) easily. Saji raised a very vital question. Is it 'Thalai Vidhi'? I also have question within myself the same way many times. There are no answers to all these, except for consoling oneself in heart that all that happens is for good for those, who believe in Him. Theological differences and disputes are always there. If one thinks God 'predestines' every thing, he is not going to hell. If one thinks that God answers us only when we pray is also right. If we can not understand the mysteries well, we say, we joyfully and humbly accept about His Omnipresense, Omnipotence, and Omniscience. If something works good for me, I say, It is within the will of God. He was pleased with me. If it does not work good for me, I say, 'it is not within the will of God. Are there any answers why man suffers sickness?

I donot want answers from any body, who want to make this a Bible college, with lots of questions, and seeking answers and then go ahead with insulting. I just wrote my opinion with the freedeom that web master gave.

It is very comfortable to take under the shelter of "Bible Only" doctrine rather than sticking on to one belief. Safe answer:
"BIBLE ONLY"

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 10 Jan 2008 11:04:19 PM Close
Dear Br. John,

Thank you for your approach and not judging those who discuss the matter. I don't think if a writer is from Pentecostal perusions, is not the basis to accept or reject his exposition from the Word of God.

In regards to Sovereignty in among Christians, no one doubts about the absoluteness of God's Sovereignty. A third person, when reads others reply to my thread, may think that my writings are against God Sovereignty. Let me reiterate that I mentioned only about God's Sovereignty, but referred some verses, -Jer 32:35, Jer 19:5, etc in which it seems that He limits His power when dealing with humanity. This doesn't change his Sovereignty in Creation, redemption, judgement, foreknowledge, predestination. Even though, human mind cannot encompass the glory and greatness of the One Eternal God, Word of God gives light about this matter.

Saji

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 5:58:32 AM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

Your question 2, is already explained in this thread itself in various answers. In nutshell I explain the contents. Jesus paid the price of Sin not only ours but for the whole world – 1John 2:2. In 2 Peter 3:9, Peter said, "The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This clearly states that it is not the Lord's will for anyone to perish, but people are perishing. God's will for people concerning salvation is not being accomplished even after paying the price of sins of – believers or non believers - past, present and future sins. THIS DOESN'T MEANT THAT GOD IS NOT SOVEREIGN. If we study Word of God, without any bias, we can see that Gods dealings with man, in many instance not as a sovereign God.

This is because the Lord gave us the freedom to choose. He doesn't will anyone into hell. He paid for the sins of the whole world, but we must choose to put our faith in Christ and receive His salvation. People are the ones choosing hell by not choosing Jesus as their Savior. It is freedom to choose or the free will of man that damns them, not God. There may not be a word like "free will of man" in Bible, but the word of God gives many descriptions for the capacity of man to Choose right and wrong. This also answers to your last paragraph of your posting.

I will try to explain question no. 1 in another thread if possible.

Saji

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 8:16:40 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

I will wait for you answer to my first question.

On 10 Jan 2008, after asking you to explain your statement on ‘free-will of man,’ I also asked, “Where do you read about this free-will of man in the Word of God, the Bible? “ I fail to read the answer in your reply on 11 Jan 2008. It is true that you wrote, “There may not be a word like "free will of man" in Bible,…” This statement of yours is not true, if we are studying the subject ‘free-will’ to increase our understanding. (For the sake of convenience, I am speaking from KJV.)

After making the above quote, you continued in the same sentence, “… but the word of God gives many descriptions for the capacity of man to Choose right and wrong.” I request you to explain this from the Bible. That is the ability to choose right and wrong is ‘free-will’ of man. It should be from the Bible.

Let me be clear about my previous requests. I asked about the Christian teachings that are ‘faith-killers.’ I did not say that you denied the sovereignty of God. If you could show me where I said that, it will be helpful. You have not provided any ‘faith-killer’ Christian teaching on the sovereignty of God, so fat. At the same time, you wrote that any Christian teaching on sovereignty of God is a ‘faith-killer.’ That implied all Christian teachings on the sovereignty of God are ‘faith-killers.’ Your explanation on this is still wanting.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 8:30:57 AM Close
Dear 'gkh,'

I don't know the connection of your inputs to this thread. One thing is clear, you are trying to translate the Bible from English-to-Greek and not from Greek-to-English. You don't need to do this. The New Testament was written, especially the verse in question in your writings, was originally written in Greek. New translations of what we have in Greek into other languages are highly desirable. Any attempt to translate it back to Greek is not to be done, because the Holy Spirit did this through the apostles. No man should try to correct the Holy Spirit. It is a questioning of the 'sovereignty' of God. If you do a backward translation from other languages to Greek, then you may also end up like the saying, "The vodka is good, but the meat is rotten."

Even with your inginuity, you have not provided the translation. What you provided was the Greek meanings of the English words or word combination. That is not a sentence. You must string the words as in an ornament to make sense. This should be done in Greek.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 9:25:37 AM Close
This forum does not accept graphics; otherwise, I would have uploaded the Greek Script exactly as it appears. If a person shows some writing and says that was an original writing in Greek, it is only his dependance on some source. No one is born with Greek in his brain. One may fool ten persons on this board writing some thing and say that was Greek, and I may be able to fool six or seven persons. I can first write Greek and write this is English translation of Greek. It is not a big thing to do with the tools available on the Internet.

What I question myself is that why am I paying for Adam's sin of eating forbidden fruit? What is the difference of believing in "Predestination" or "Free will". In what way it affects Christian life. Every one, who is saved will go to heaven. When saved persons with these two beliefs stand before God, He may, say, you both had foolish opinions. Actually, it is something else.

Sovereign God has sent His only Son to be crucified for the sake of every one; but who is saved?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is a clause here: "whosoever believeth"

So is it not "Free will"?

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 11:02:35 AM Close
Dear Sajimaniayatt,

You have asked me to comment on Andrew Wommack earlier. My posting under “predestination – Romans 8:29-30” should sufficiently explain what the Bible teaches on this subject.

Also, in this thread we are asked to check the web-site ‘brethrenassembly.com’ by ‘josbr’ and read Dr. Silas Nair’s e-book on election. I have glanced through Silas’ writings. His writings are in line with the ‘prescient’ view and contain several interpretational errors. Dr. O. M Samuel of Kerala , India has given his accolade to this e-book. I also noticed, Dr. Johnson C Philip gave a very ‘non-committal’ sort of commendation as a preface. I really couldn’t tell whether Dr. JCP agreed or disagreed with Silas Nair’s inaccurate assertions.

I sincerely hope and pray that we would study this wonderful doctrine of great encouragement and display of God’s purposeful love to each believer and find comfort in it, instead of trying to deny God’s deliberate and gracious showering of His mercy upon our lives. All glory and honor go to Him and Him alone. We shouldn’t rob God of His glory by claiming we came to God because we ‘put our trust’ in Him. Faith comes from God.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 11:58:25 AM Close
Dear Br. Tom,

I will check on your writings and try to comment on it as time permits.

It seems to me from your above thread that, man's free will, rob God's glory from Him. But actually I understand that it gives more glory to God when man uses God's free gift of WILL to chooses right/wrong and not as robots. By God's foreknowledge He predestined us before foundation of the world based on our free will is a great encouragement.

Saji

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 12:55:21 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

I explained to you on 11 Jan 2008 5:58:32 AM from my understanding, what is the meaning of free will of man. I have nothing to say more than this.

In regards to the word faith killer, I am giving explanation from the original leaflet as follows:

Typical teaching on the sovereignty of God puts Jesus in the driver's seat with us as passengers. On the surface that looks good. All of us have encountered the disastrous results of doing our own thing. We desire to be led of the Lord, and teaching that nothing happens but what God wills fits that nicely. However, the Scriptures paint a picture of each of us being behind the wheel of our own lives. We are the one doing the driving. We are supposed to take directions from the Lord, but He doesn't do the driving for us.

Man has been given the authority over his own life, but he must have the Lord's direction to succeed. Jeremiah 10:23 says, "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." God created us to be dependent upon Him and our independence is at the root of all our problems. As if it wasn't bad enough for man to try to run his affairs independently of God and His standards, it has been made even worse by religion teaching us that all our problems are actually blessings from God. That is a faith killer. It makes people totally passive.

Saji

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 1:25:30 PM Close
Dear Saji,

You wrote-

"It seems to me from your above thread that, man's free will, rob God's glory from Him. But actually I understand that it gives more glory to God when man uses God's free gift of WILL to chooses right/wrong and not as robots. By God's foreknowledge He predestined us before foundation of the world based on our free will is a great encouragement."

Saji, it may sound good to our senses, but it is not biblical teaching. Many people fail to see the proper teaching on this and I hope you will read the Romans 8:29-30 thread and prayerfully consider studying that passage.

My own brother who has written many books and still actively involved in writing in Malayalam & English, who I consider as a very good student of the Bible and a good teacher, do not see this truth as I see. It took me over 10 years of serious personal studying and reading several related books to come to grips with this truth. I used to be 'prescient' before.

So I empathaize with it, but I am convinced that it is an unbiblical view.

Regards,


Tom J

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 11 Jan 2008 1:41:00 PM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

Your posting dtd 10 Jan 2008 7:18:22 AM, . I am not trying to explain something based on one verse. If we correlate Ephesians 1:4 – predestined, Romans 8:29 – foreknowledge and predestination. 1 Peter 1:2 foreknowledge, we will get more light on the matter explained in my thread.

My answer to your question No.1 is as follows:

a. The very verse Romans 8:29 is the answer. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. God foreknew and he predestined them.

b. BELIEVING THAT GOD PREDESTINED EVERYTHING, GOOD OR BAD TO HAPPENS, IN LONG TERM, THOUGH, IT SLANDERS GOD, HINDERS OUR TRUST IN GOD AND LEADS TO PASSIVITY.

c. God doesn't force that to happen in earthly life, but this will occur until they receive their glorified bodies.

Saji

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 13 Jan 2008 5:28:40 PM Close
Theological compromises can never be made. Each one with certain belief calls the one with other belief as one with wrong interpretation.

Sovereign God is compassionate and for Adam's sin, He sent His one and Only begotten Son for the remission of sins of all mankind. If man is only like an envelope proclaiming the Gospel, then, God being compassionate will not allow any body to perish. This leads to 'Universalism' that is every body in the world will be saved.

Sovereign God has sent His One and only Son for the remission of sins of all man kind, but only those, who believe in Jesus as Savior will be saved. This leads to 'Free will'. That is to say God does not allow every body to be saved. This is wrong interpretation.

'Universalism' is wrong as per one group and 'Universalism' is not wrong as per few other groups.

If we ask this question in Church 90% of the believers are not sure about it. Finally, every one will agree to one point that God's ways are ununderstandable. He is Almighty; He is Omnipotent; He is Omniscience; we can not question Him. Sovereign God predestined salvation for every body or man has to choose salvation? (I don't want answer any question please - Reader may just think about it if answer is presented, my thanks in advance).

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 14 Jan 2008 8:14:42 AM Close
Dear brethren,

We should strive to be simple in our understanding of these great truths of scripture. Christianity is divinely designed to be grasped, experienced and enjoyed by those of the simplest intellect.

God's sovereignity is basically a very simple thought that can be accepted and understood by uncomplicated, unquestioning faith. God cannot be called in question by any created being. He has the absolute right to do what is in accordance with His will. We can rest in the security and blessedness of this truth because His righteousness and holiness are absolute, and His nature is love.

If we start to try and equate that with man's responsibility we immediately run into difficulties. It is His sovereign will, according to scripture, that all are given the opportunity to receive Christ. He does not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). However, all will not come to repentance. That fact is self-evident. This aspect of His will refers to the desires of a God of love, to righteously bless His fallen creature.

If we go to a scripture such as Isaiah 46. 9-11, we see the absolute sovereignity of His will expressed majestically, intimating that it will not be denied in any detail. Man cannot understand that. The concept is beyond our finite minds. We can only bow humbly before him, reverently accepting the truth of such awesome statements.

Man's responsibility is to heed God's gracious call to repentance, and then having entered into the blessing of being redeemed, find his place "doing His will", according to Mark 3:35. This is the evidence of having been born again.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 14 Jan 2008 10:31:40 AM Close
There are few verses that give us knowledge about God's unquestionable knowledge.

He knoweth what is in the darkness" (Dan. 2:22).
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it" (Ps. 139:6).
For there is not a word in my tongue but, lo, O Lord, Thou knowest it altogether" (Ps. 139:2-4).
"He knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust" (Ps. 103:14).
Lord, Thou knowest all things; Thou knowest that I love Thee" (John 21:17).
"...must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)

Important:

"...delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23).

In addition, if we read Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

These verses give us some kind of understanding that none in the world will be lost. When at the judgment seat people stand, he may find everyone righteous in one respect or the other. He may find some one, who has helped his 'brethren', and thus qualify to enter eternal life. Who knows what is in store for every body. Foreknowledge, predestination, Sovereignity of God are understandable. Let us not be of highmindedness to take pride in excessive knowledge to condemn others.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 Jan 2008 2:58:36 PM Close
Gkh,

You said - "'Universalism' is wrong as per one group and 'Universalism' is not wrong as per few other groups."

What is your stand on this?

Then you wrote -

"These verses give us some kind of understanding that none in the world will be lost. When at the judgment seat people stand, he may find everyone righteous in one respect or the other. He may find some one, who has helped his 'brethren', and thus qualify to enter eternal life. "

Please study carefully these passages before coming to such conclusions. Theses are of eternal consequences, such indifference to the gospel will certaily lead to eternal separation from God. It is not a trivial matter. Hope you will take the word of God more seriously.

Tom J


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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 14 Jan 2008 5:48:06 PM Close
Dear Tom J,

I find you gave voluntarily some personal information about your brother:

"My own brother who has written many books and still actively involved in writing in Malayalam & English, who I consider as a very good student of the Bible and a good teacher, do not see this truth as I see." 11 Jan 2008 1:25:30 PM

I would hesitate to have any personal information about any body, but since you have voluntarily given some information, can I know who your brother is? I just want to read few books written by him, if possible, to know if he faces an eternal separation because he does not hold the belief that you hold on to.

As for your inquiry about my stand, I believe in Sovereignity of God, the will of God prevailing on man's will. There is some problem here. The clause "whosoever beliveth" in John 3:16 gives us indication that only those who believe in Jesus and accept Him as Savior will be saved and others will be damned to 'lake of fire'. If you ask a novice about this truth, he will not know what the "predestination" is nor will he be able to explain what the "free will" of man is. Simple belief in Jesus and accepting Him as savior will entail him to have salvation. Such theological depth is intended for those, who grow up spiritually and when they acquire such knowledge they keep condemning others for not treading their path. Some one may ask, where is the word, "Free Will of Man". I am referring to "Free Will" of man. you may note where I ended the quotes. We will not find words like, "Trinity", "Rapture" etc. in the Bible, yet they are true. In the same way, there is no point in having altercations over the presence or non-presence of the word, "Free Will of Man" in the Bible. I am sure your brother will not have eternal separation from God for being in a different belief than what you hold on to. Why then, is such full length fighting/discussion on these interpretations? What does it fetch?

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 2:21:07 AM Close
Tom J,

Ignore my previous post;lest you should think that I am interested in your or your brother's personal information.

Secondly, I am not interested to write back and forth to you; it does not serve any purpose. You may write in general to readers, if you wish to. One thing is sure, that you can not change my beliefs, nor would I be able change yours. I will write, if I wish, my thoughts, which I think are not for teaching, but are for general reading. The difference in opinion about few topics, is not 'indifference' to Gospel!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 8:03:17 AM Close
Gkh,

You wrote- "These verses give us some kind of understanding that none in the world will be lost. When at the judgment seat people stand, he may find everyone righteous in one respect or the other. He may find some one, who has helped his 'brethren', and thus qualify to enter eternal life."

This belief (if this indeed is your belief) is an unbiblical belief and indifference to the gospel presented in the Bible. This belief (not the prescient view) would lead to eternal separation form God. I sorry you misunderstood me. Hope it is clear now.

Tom J

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 8:21:58 AM Close
Dear Saji Maniyatt,

On 11 Jan 2008, you made two postings on this thread. Both of them contain disturbing thoughts. You claim to have a free-will, but do not have any explanation from the Word of God. You accuse others with a doctrine that is a fiction of your imagination and not from the scripture. You wrote, “BELIEVING THAT GOD PREDESTINED EVERYTHING, GOOD OR BAD TO HAPPENS, IN LONG TERM, THOUGH, IT SLANDERS GOD, HINDERS OUR TRUST IN GOD AND LEADS TO PASSIVITY.” (The block letters are yours and not mine.) Where in the Bible you read that God predestinated everything, including good and bad, as you wrote? Are you changing the Word of God, to suit your ideas?

If you want to teach that man is saved because of his free-will, you ought to read John 1:12-13, “But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will not of man’s will, but of God.” The Word of God teaches that it is not by the will of man, a man becomes a child of God. You say that it is not only by the will of the man, but that will of man is free. By doing so, you have overruled God and His word. You have equated yourself to God, if not placed yourself above God, having the authority to change God’s word.

In your answer (a) on 11 Jan 2008 13:41:00, it appears that you are saying that God’s knowledge is not perfect and His actions follow his knowledge, as a man. I also thought that you agreed to start a new thread to discuss on predestination. Unfortunately, you continue on this thread.

In the Bible, we read about the ‘free-will’ of man. You must study the Bible to understand it. Well, you don’t want to study the Bible, but want to discuss theology. I invite you to discuss the Word of God and not theology. Why don’t you want to study the Bible in detail?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 8:23:26 AM Close
Dear ‘gkh,’
Part-1

You don’t need to upload Greek characters from an internet website. All you need to do is to accept what is written in Greek as we have in the manuscripts. The way you are doing is to translate verses back to Greek to show your ignorance about the inspiration of the Word of God. If you want, you could transliterate the Greek verses into English and not from English to Greek.

Why do you think that you could fool people on this Forum, as you wrote on 11 Jan 2008 9:25:37 AM? A verse in the Bible is not just words that are arranged as in a column, as you did. Each verse was provided to man by the inspiration of God, using words that are arranged to satisfy the grammar along with syntax and semantics that are applicable. You think that by just writing words one after other in a column, you could write a sentence. May be that is true, if we are talking about Chinese or Japanese. It does not become a sentence in Greek or English. It will remain unconnected words, as a column.

On 11 Jan 2008 9:25:37 AM you wrote, “What I question myself is that why am I paying for Adam's sin of eating forbidden fruit?” If you question yourself like this, then your position before God is in question. You need to believe on the Son as your personal Savior, Lord, and God. You must accept the headship of Adam of all humankind. Please read John 3. It was the Lord’s teaching to a religious teacher of the Jews. “You must be born again.” That I repeat for you.

You also use the art of rhetoric to establish what ever you want to propagate. “Whosoever” is not “free-will.” “Whosoever” means “whoever” and not “free-will.” If you want to establish it your way, then you have to provide explanations, in detail.

On 13 Jan 2008 17:28:40 you wrote, “If man is only like an envelope proclaiming the Gospel …” If you are saying that you are like an envelope, then I will not refute it. An envelope is what I use to mail things... (Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 8:24:38 AM Close
Dear ‘gkh,’
Part-2

... Let me see, I have to write my address along with the recipients address and then place appropriate stamp on it, before mailing. It is not necessary to place anything inside the envelope. God doesn’t want you to preach the gospel like an empty envelope does.

Nothing leads to ‘free-will.’ Your teaching, as you write, will lead to destruction of the unsuspecting and unsaved souls.

You also wrote, “If we ask this question in Church 90% of the believers are not sure about it" Is this your experience? Do you think that you could establish doctrines by surveying people? That is politics. If not politics, then that is the method of the news media to create news and not reporting news. If 90% are ignorant about their salvation, then that is not a Church, it is a community. A Church is what the Lord Jesus Christ builds (please read Matthew 16). Only saved ones are used in that building, as living stones (please read the Epistles of Peter). All those living stones know about their salvation. You did question God before in writing, “What I question myself is that why am I paying for Adam's sin of eating forbidden fruit?” Now you admit that you are in a community where 90% are ignorant about salvation. “You must be born again.”

You also wrote that you could not understand God’s ways. Only those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit understand this with His help. A person who does not have the Holy Spirit cannot understand God’s ways and makes states as you do. Those who have the Holy Spirit will understand God’s ways as much as He wants us to understand. Only a saved person has the Holy Spirit. You will have Him, when you are saved by grace by the blood of the Lamb of God. The Lamb of God said, “Ye must be born again.”

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 11:09:34 AM Close
Dear Br. George P. Koshy,

Where in the Bible you read that God predestinated everything, including good and bad, as you wrote?

I already exchanged my views an I am willingly refrain further discussion on this thread since I discussed related matter in length in another thread.

Are you changing the Word of God, to suit your ideas? NO ANSWER.

Your quote: You have equated yourself to God, if not placed yourself above God, having the authority to change God’s word. THANK YOU FOR JUDGING CORRECTLY.

I invite you to discuss the Word of God and not theology. Why don’t you want to study the Bible in detail? SORRY I AM NOT INTERESTED DUE TO MY OWN REASONS.

Saji

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 11:13:42 AM Close
pl. read THANK YOU FOR JUDGING.
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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 12:27:37 PM Close
"de parakaleo humas adelphos dia onoma hemon kurios Iesous Christos hina lego pas
lego autos kai o me schisma en humin de o katartizo en autos nous kai en autos
gnome " That was Greek. That verse in Greek is
from (1 Corinthians 1:10)

The tranlation of that verse in to English is:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
(1 Corinthians 1:10)

Who understood Greek? Why somebody is writing here Greek with lower case English alphabets mixed up with upper case English alphabets? Is it to fool those, who are ignorant of searching what is available for reading elsewhere? The Greek is written just as I wrote. If two views are presented there should be a third person appointed by some body else to judge. A contributor can not judge! All contributors are equal.

Community is "a unified body of individuals" Christian Community gathers at places like Churches. The Church as a whole is the bride of Christ.

"These verses give us some kind of understanding that none in the world will be lost. When at the judgment seat people stand, he may find everyone righteous in one respect or the other. He may find some one, who has helped his 'brethren', and thus qualify to enter eternal life."

Yes! He may find any one righteous at his discretion. It is not my discretion that I will have eternal life by my choice. The condition is that I must ask forgiveness and accept Jesus as personal Savior. The choice to accept salvation or reject salvation is mine. If I am or someone's brother is at variance with his belief it is not "indifference" to Gospel. It looks like we may have to pass the tests of two judges on this forum before we stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 1:25:07 PM Close
Gkh,

Since you have mentioned the judgment seat of Christ few times, may I ask you, based on the scriptures who will be appearing before the judgment seat of Christ? And also, what would be the outcome of that judgment? I’d appreciate your comments.


Tom J

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 1:38:26 PM Close
Tom J

I did not want to write back and forth to you, yet you are questioning me. Is to judge me? Any how, I do not want to displease you.

All those who are privileged to receive the rewards for their work for Christ wil be in the mid air with Christ. The judgment seat is also known as "Bema Seat of Christ".

Let me give you a quiz:

What is this?
1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Paul says, Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 2:26:26 PM Close
Gkh,

Let me apologize to you for asking questions. But here are some of the reasons. You said-

“In addition, if we read Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
“These verses give us some kind of understanding that none in the world will be lost. When at the judgment seat people stand, he may find everyone righteous in one respect or the other. He may find some one, who has helped his 'brethren', and thus qualify to enter eternal life."

What you are alluding (finding righteous ones) is not at the Judgment seat of Christ. It happens at the Sheep/ Goat Judgment. Also we see a large number of people being rejected by Christ there. In case you were to be alluding to the White Throne judgment there again all of them are found not having their names written in the book of life and they are sent to the Lake of fire. They are being judged according to their work also. So, there is no universal salvation.

I noticed you were leaning towards universalism thru your writings, though you didn’t explicitly state it. I asked a specific question regarding your position on universalism and you didn’t answer.

Since you were mixing up these judgments and your apparent leaning towards universalism (forgive me if I am totally mistaken) prompted me to ask these specific questions.

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 2:40:17 PM Close
Gkh,

Since you asked me about this -

1 Cor 9: 24-27

24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

It is written to Corinthian believers. Paul wanted them to be focused in their Christian services so that they would have lasting rewards. The Lord Jesus Christ would reward the believers according to their work. The following passages would shed more light.

1 Cor 3:13-15

13. Each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

14. If any man’s work, which he has built on it, remains, he will receive a reward.

15. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

2 Cor 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 14:10

…. For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Tom J

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 3:22:41 PM Close
Greek word [bema], is translated from a root which means 'base' or the foot (and by implication, step). Bema just means the raised seating of a judge. courts established judgment seats following this pattern. Bema seat is simply the raised seating.

Matthew 27:19

"When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him."

John 19:13
"When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha."

Philippians 2:13

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

2nd Peter 2:13

"And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;"

2nd Corinthians 5:9-11

"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

This judgement seat [bema] is the same one all mankind must stand before. This verse clearly says this judgement is for. In one judgement of those the Lord will find good and those whom the Lord will find bad when they 'All' stand before this judgement seat. Not all believers as is surmised but all.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 3:44:05 PM Close
Gkh,

You said; “This judgment seat [bema] is the same one all mankind must stand before.”

I don’t want to be stickler but I disagree. We do not see ‘Bema’ at the Sheep/ Goat judgment or at the White Throne judgment.

There is a biblical reason for it; bema is where the believers appear. They are all the redeemed ones; no judgment of sin at bema. This is a place for reward.

At other places where sin is judged we do not see bema.

Tom J

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 3:58:09 PM Close
Again, it is about a word that is in the Bible or not. There is no word viz. "Bema" in the Bible. So arguing about "Bema" is invalid. A group of people, who think only believers will be at the Judgment seat of Christ will call that Judgment seat of Christ as "Bema".

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

One thing Christians in the world have to bear in mind!

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 4:38:48 PM Close
Gkh,

I am not trying to judge you as Romans 14:10 is instructing not to.

But 1 John 4:1 says; "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

You have brought on universalism; you have mixed up bema and thronos; judgment seat of Christ vs. Sheep/ Goat judgment and then you mixed all with the White Throne Judgment.

Now you are reminding me not to judge you by quoting Romans 14. All I was doing was gently asking you to look more closely into the scriptures so that such errors can be avoided.

Tom J

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 5:15:45 PM Close
Tom J

If you find a person, who has accepted Jesus Chrsit as Savior, in your Church and has all these mixed beliefs, will you say he is 'false prophet' and is heading for eternal separation from God?

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 5:41:33 PM Close
Gkh,

'False prophet' ---- I quoted a relevant verse and that word is in there. Please don't think it is addressed specifically to you. But the warning is there for every Christian. Hope you will not be offended.

'Eternal separation' -------- If someone believes in 'universalism' I'd strongly warn that person to check his/ her faith. I am not saying that person can or cannot be saved. But my earnest desire for that person would be to understand the clear message of salvation. At least some people with such belief might not have the saving faith in them.

I used such terms to raise the level of awareness and not meant to be derrogatory or hurtful.

Tom J

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 6:23:07 PM Close
Tom J

My focus was on pointing out that misunderstanding the Scriptures will not render a person to have eternal separation from God. This is where you have failed miserably. Misunderstanding also will not render a person to be called, "False Prophet" How do you know that I was using the same verse as you quoted to test the spirit in you?

I have the knowledge about "Shep/Goat Judgment", and "White Throne Judgment" Most of the very well known scholars believe in only one judment, i.e. "White Throne Judgment". We find diputes about "Predestination", "Free Will", "Pre-millennial Rapture", "Post-millennial Rapture" etc. etc. There is no definite answer in the Bible. This difference in understanding will continue and none of the saved ones will receive "eternal separation from God' as you thought.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2008 9:28:31 PM Close
Gkh,

I mentioned eternal separation from God when you brought/ suggested universalism. I don't know if a truly saved person can be believing in universalism. Please don't take my comments out of context.

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 Jan 2008 9:01:38 AM Close
Gkh,

You worte; “have the knowledge about "Sheep/Goat Judgment", and "White Throne Judgment" Most of the very well known scholars believe in only one judgment, i.e. "White Throne Judgment".

These ‘well known scholars’ you mentioned failed to see the following –

The Sheep/ Goat judgment is for the Living Gentiles–
It takes place at the end of tribulation / at the second coming of Jesus Christ.
The place set for that is at the Valley of Jehoshaphat
The Throne of Glory is there.
They are judged on the basis of their acceptance of Christ and the persecuted Jews.
The result is either entrance in to the Millennial kingdom or Lake of Fire.
Joel 3:1-2 & Matt 25:31-46 are the relevant scripture portions.


The White Throne Judgment is for the unsaved people of all ages.
It takes place after the present earth and sky disappeared / removed like a scroll.
It takes place at the “White Throne” (No earth or sky there).
They are judged on the basis of their rejection of God.
The result is just the entrance to the Lake of Fire (no one escapes here)
Rev 20:11-15 is the relevant passage.

Studying these events properly would avoid lot of confusion. There are many who mislead the flocks due to their ignorance and negligence in studying the word as they should be.

Tom J

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 16 Jan 2008 9:11:29 AM Close
Dear ‘gkh,’
part-1

1 Corinthians 1:10 in Greek is:

Parakalao de umas, adelphoi, dia tou onomatos tou Kuriou emon Iesou Christou, ina to auto legete pantis, kai me e en umin schrismata, ete de katertismenoi en to auto noi kai en te aute gnome. (In this, I have not considered the accent marks.)

When this is translated to English and not English to Greek, it will read as, “I exhort now you, brothers, through the name of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, that the same thing you say all, and not be among you divisions, you be but united in the same mind and in the same judgment.”

Using the understanding of the meaning of the Greek words and the syntax and semantics of language is needed to translate the verses from Greek to any other language. When the translation is to the English language, what is translated should be in conformance to the English language. That is why we read the corresponding words in different places and it is, “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” This is what we read in KJV. No one needs to translate this back to Greek.

Let me give you an example. In Malayalam we may say, AVAN AVIDE POI. The English translation of that Malayalam expression should be, “He went there.” Now, let us use your method of translation. AVAN = he; AVIDE = there; and POI = went. According to you, the Malayalam translation of “He went there,” (You wanted to translate from English to Greek), should be AVAN POI AVIDE. Even the children in grade school know that this is not good grammar and is in violation of syntax and semantics.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 16 Jan 2008 9:12:44 AM Close
Dear ‘gkh,’
part-2

Now, let us read your Greek translation: ---<<“de parakaleo humas adelphos dia onoma hemon kurios Iesous Christos hina lego pas lego autos kai o me schisma en humin de o katartizo en autos nous kai en autos gnome " That was Greek. That verse in Greek is from (1 Corinthians 1:10)>>---

Now compare your Greek with what is in the manuscript, TR. What a difference! Your Greek is not Greek. That may be an Ebonic-Greek of yours. You changed the Word of God using the art of rhetoric.

If Church is the community of believers, why are you undertaking a survey on doctrines? Man does not establish doctrines; it is given to man from God, by God.

On 15 Jan 2008 15:22:4, you wrote about ‘judgment seat.’ At first, your basic premise seems to be good, but when we take a closer look, it is not so.

You quoted five verses to justify your idea about the judgment seat. Out of this five, only three have the word judgment in it. If you were trying to tell us about the Greek word that is translated, as ‘judgment seat,’ then your list should contain all the verses in which that Greek word appears. About 10 Greek words are translated in KJV as ‘judgment.’ The most frequent one in the Greek New Testament are KRIMA, KRISIS, and BEMA.

BEMA appears in Matthew 21:17; 26:6; John 19:13; Acts 7:5; 12:21; 18:12, 16, 17; 25:6, 10, 17; Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10. There are twelve verses to consider. In Acts 7:5, it is translated as “set.” In Acts 12:21 it is translated as “throne.” All other places, it is translated as “judgment” or “judgment seat.” The places where BEMA is translated, as “judgment seat” there was a person to be judged and a judge to sit on that seat. The person to be judged was innocent. From Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 we learned that we will stand before Christ to receive our rewards and not a judgment to go to the eternal lake of fire. Why did you omit most of the verses that contain the Greek word BEEMA?... (Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 16 Jan 2008 9:13:55 AM Close
Dear ‘gkh,’
part-3

... At the same time, you quoted two verses that did not have the BEMA or ‘judgment’ in it.

Since you have shown your ability to work with Greek, though it was very wrong, I ask you to complete the study on KRIMA and KRISIS. If these are the same as BEMA, why the different words are used by the Holy Spirit in revealing the mind and will of God to us? This is a question you should be keeping in mind, while answering. It will help.

You also wrote, “This judgement seat [bema] is the same one all mankind must stand before.” --- Which verse(s) could you provide in support of this assertion? Are you saying that the Judgment Seat of Christ (TO BEMATI TOU CHRISTOU or TOU BEMATOS TOU CHRISTOU) of Romans 14 and 2 Corinthians 5 is the same as the Great White Throne (THRONON LEUKON) of Revelation 20? If so, you are wrong. They are different. The study on KRIMA and KRISIS will bring this to light.

The following are to help you in your study:

KRIMA is about condemning the wrong. It deals with passing on a decision on the fault of a person.

KRISIS deals with separating or sundering. It may also deals with the opinion of judgment or decision.

BEMA is a raised place. It could be like a platform or a seat. It will be made clear by what is done on that BEMA. From John 19:13 we learn that the BEMA was a seat. The expression there is, “sat down on the judgment seat” (EKATHISEN EPI TOU BEMATOS). When one sits on the BEMA, it is about a raised seat that we read. On the other hand, when we read the expression “To set his foot on” (BEMA PODOS), then it is about a raised place to stand, like a platform.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 16 Jan 2008 12:18:32 PM Close
Dearest GPK,

" kai kataleipo autos exerchomai exo
polis eis Bethania kai aulizomai
ekei "

That was Greek verse Matthew 21:17

Matthew 21:17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.

There is no "Bema" there. I do not need to go further on this.

“He went there.” Now, let us use your method of translation. AVAN = he; AVIDE = there; and POI = went. "


Does it not sound poetical. You may sing few malayalam songs, they are like "he there went"

"Aru Evide Poi"? you mean we need to translate like 'Who where went"? Malayalam to English just as Greek to English? Where did you learn Greek?

You need refreshing classes!

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 16 Jan 2008 8:51:58 PM Close
Tom J,

(Quote):
These ‘well known scholars’ you mentioned failed to see the following –

The Sheep/ Goat judgment is for the Living Gentiles–
It takes place at the end of tribulation / at the second coming of Jesus Christ.
The place set for that is at the Valley of Jehoshaphat
The Throne of Glory is there.
They are judged on the basis of their acceptance of Christ and the persecuted Jews.
The result is either entrance in to the Millennial kingdom or Lake of Fire.
Joel 3:1-2 & Matt 25:31-46 are the relevant scripture portions.

The White Throne Judgment is for the unsaved people of all ages.
It takes place after the present earth and sky disappeared / removed like a scroll.
It takes place at the “White Throne” (No earth or sky there).
They are judged on the basis of their rejection of God.
The result is just the entrance to the Lake of Fire (no one escapes here)
Rev 20:11-15 is the relevant passage. (End Quote)

I. I know these two beliefs. Anti-christ's reign for seven years, and he breaking the promise after 3 and half years and so on...

II. Judgment at Jehoshaphat Valley etc....

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: has reference to Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

(1.) It was in answer to an inquiry with respect to the end of the world.
(2.) All nations will be there - It never occured before at Jerusalem
(3.) Righteous wll be separated form the wicked -- It was not done at Jerusalem.
(4.) The rewards and punishments will be eternal. These things did not take place when Jerusalem was destroyed.

More References: Ac 1:11; Eph 1:20-22; 1Th 4:16; 1Co 15:24-25. The throne of his glory, in Hebrew language means his glorious or splendid throne.

QuoteThese ‘well known scholars’ you mentioned failed...)?

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 17 Jan 2008 2:59:37 AM Close
Three things came to my attention:

One is that there are some here, who do not fail to see things right; and they have better understanding than well known scholars of past;

Or,

Well known scholars are reduntant; new opinions matter great deal;

Or,

Bible can be interpreted/understood in more than one way.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 17 Jan 2008 9:56:17 AM Close
Dear ‘gkh,’

Matthew 21:17 reads in Greek like this: “kai katalipon autous exethen exo tes poleos eis Bethanian, kai eulisthe ekei.”

In your posting of 16 Jan 2008 12:18:32, you wrote something in your Ebonic-Greek and I reproduce it for comparison:
---<<" kai kataleipo autos exerchomai exo polis eis Bethania kai aulizomai ekei "

That was Greek verse Matthew 21:17>>---

When you wrote, “That was Greek verse Matthew 21:17,” you were not telling the truth. Looking up for Greek words in a concordance and stringing them in the order of the English words in a verse will not make that a verse in the Greek New Testament. It is deception. You have done that on this Forum. The Greek verbs should follow the tense, gender, etc. when it is part of a sentence. There are rules to construct a sentence. You forgot all of these.

Your writings manifest your scholar's scholarship. There is more to be desired.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : gkh   View Profile   Since : 17 Jan 2008 12:29:00 PM Close
What could I think of those, who coin speical words like "Ebonic-Greek", which is not found anywhere in any dictionary in the world. Added to that this so called Scholar adds to the word of God, especially in Greek, that which is not there inviting the provisions of Revelation 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Or, if his presentation of Greek is right that would mean there are two writings in Greek, one: "White-Greek", and anther: "Ebonic-Greek", with two different meanings. How then the translations from these two Greeks would be? Apprarently two diffent meanings from two different types of Greek are eventually presented. That is the reason why many interpretations resulted based on different translations, and some one would say that the belief in "univesalism" by a person, even though saved by accepting Jesus as personal Savior would result in "Eternal Separation", a doctrine quite contraty to that of "Salvation once received will never be lost". Scholars neeed to humble themselves instead of referring the decisions about 20/20 to "New England Journal of Medicine", which is apt for those, who questioned about the probability of loosing it, because of not committing any sin, but is the result of chance!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 Jan 2008 10:12:53 AM Close
Dear ‘gkh,’

Ebonics is a medium of communication among certain gangs in Los Angeles, California. It has no grammar, syntax, or semantics that is known in any other language. Your Greek is similar to it. Therefore, it is ‘Ebonic-Greek.’ By introducing this nonexistent Ebonic-Greek, you changed the Word of God to meet your fancy.

What should be presented as Greek verse is not a translation from English, Malayalam, etc. into English, but it should be what is in the Greek manuscripts. That is from where the translations into English and other languages took place. Your ‘Ebonic-Greek’ provides meanings that are not in the originals or its copies. Go back to the manuscripts that are readily available.

You also wrote, ---<<…even though saved by accepting Jesus as personal Savior would result in "Eternal Separation", a doctrine quite contraty to that of "Salvation once received will never be lost".>>--- Where do you read about the “Eternal Separation.” Could you explain this from the scriptures?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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